Freedom (Free Will),Free Will Stopped at the Garden

[Winman]

Sorry FAL, but you are incorrect.

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin- ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Men's names are in the book, when they sin against God their names are blotted out or erased.

God does not choose men to die, men die because of their own sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Sorry FAL, but you are incorrect.

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin- ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Men's names are in the book, when they sin against God their names are blotted out or erased.

God does not choose men to die, men die because of their own sin.

I will consider the passage in light of your statements. Thank you.

 

[freeatlast]

Sorry FAL, but you are incorrect.

Exo 32:31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin- ; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Men's names are in the book, when they sin against God their names are blotted out or erased.

God does not choose men to die, men die because of their own sin.

This raises a question. Since all have sinned does this not teach that all have had their names blotted out at some time pior to salvation or do you believe the blotting happens at death?

 

[Winman]

This raises a question. Since all have sinned does this not teach that all have had their names blotted out at some time pior to salvation or do you believe the blotting happens at death?

Well, Moses had killed a man, and his name was still in the book wasn't it?

These verses certainly throw a wrench in the cogs of Original Sin, do they not?

I personally believe this is speaking of men willfully and knowingly rejecting Christ. This is the sin spoken of in Hebrews 3.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

I believe it is those who have knowingly and willingly rejected God whose names are blotted out. They have crossed the line.

These are those who knew of God but departed in unbelief in Romans 1, who God gives up. (Rom 1:24, 26, 28)

Many teach men are born dead in sin, separated from God. The Book of Life refutes this, they are originally in the book, when they knowingly reject God their names are blotted out.

 

[Amy.G]

Well, Moses had killed a man, and his name was still in the book wasn't it?

These verses certainly throw a wrench in the cogs of Original Sin, do they not?

I personally believe this is speaking of men willfully and knowingly rejecting Christ. This is the sin spoken of in Hebrews 3.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

I believe it is those who have knowingly and willingly rejected God whose names are blotted out. They have crossed the line.

These are those who knew of God but departed in unbelief in Romans 1, who God gives up. (Rom 1:24, 26, 28)

Many teach men are born dead in sin, separated from God. The Book of Life refutes this, they are originally in the book, when they knowingly reject God their names are blotted out.

Why were their names in the book of life to begin with? It sounds as though we can lose our salvation.

 

[Winman]

Why were their names in the book of life to begin with? It sounds as though we can lose our salvation.

No, they are not saved, they are sinners in danger of damnation. But until they finally reject God, their names are still in the book, God continues to be longsuffering toward them, not willing that any should perish.

But there are some who finally cross the line rejecting God's grace. These are those in Romans 1 who know of God and have no excuse. Only God knows when a person has crossed the line. An example is Jezebel in Rev 2:20-23 who God gave space to repent, but she repented not.

So, I am not saying persons are not dead in sin (separated from God), but that they still have opportunity to accept Christ. But there is a point that only God knows where a man sins away his opportunity, at which point God gives them up and blots out their name.

 

[freeatlast]

Well, Moses had killed a man, and his name was still in the book wasn't it?

These verses certainly throw a wrench in the cogs of Original Sin, do they not?

I personally believe this is speaking of men willfully and knowingly rejecting Christ. This is the sin spoken of in Hebrews 3.

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

I believe it is those who have knowingly and willingly rejected God whose names are blotted out. They have crossed the line.

These are those who knew of God but departed in unbelief in Romans 1, who God gives up. (Rom 1:24, 26, 28)

Many teach men are born dead in sin, separated from God. The Book of Life refutes this, they are originally in the book, when they knowingly reject God their names are blotted out.

Then why is Moses telling God to not blot their names out of the book if this is about rejecting Christ as they had no understanding of Him at this point?

 

[Winman]

Then why is Moses telling God to not blot their names out of the book if this is about rejecting Christ as they had no understanding of Him at this point?

Well, when I say rejecting Christ and rejecting God I mean the same thing. What the ancient Jews fully knew about the promised redeemer I am not sure, but they rejected the revelation they had. And they had much, they had seen all the plagues brought on Pharaoh, they had seen God part the Red Sea and walked through. It is difficult to imagine that after seeing these miracles they would reject God and make a golden calf, but that is exactly what they did. As Moses said, "Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

So, all sin is bad, but this was an especially great sin.

 

[freeatlast]

Well, when I say rejecting Christ and rejecting God I mean the same thing. What the ancient Jews fully knew about the promised redeemer I am not sure, but they rejected the revelation they had. And they had much, they had seen all the plagues brought on Pharaoh, they had seen God part the Red Sea and walked through. It is difficult to imagine that after seeing these miracles they would reject God and make a golden calf, but that is exactly what they did. As Moses said, "Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

So, all sin is bad, but this was an especially great sin.

They did not have much at the time of the giving of the law. They are not knowingly rejecting God. They are seeking God through an improper manner. It was not that they did not believe in God, but that they did not believe Him in a particular area.

 

[Winman]

They did not have much at the time of the giving of the law. They are not knowingly rejecting God. They are seeking God through an improper manner. It was not that they did not believe in God, but that they did not believe Him in a particular area.

The exact identity of the golden calf is debated, but there is evidence it could have been Apis or another Egyptian god.

Read Ezekiel chapter 20.

 

[Skandelon]

When I read the account of the Fall of man in Genesis I see were it speaks of all the curses that came with the fall. I read where it talks of the toiling the land and labor pains. I see where it teaches that men now know both good and evil.

But, can one of you show me where it talks about this seemingly very significant curse by where all of mankind is born unable to willingly believe any message of reconciliation from God? Something that huge would certainly have been mentioned, right? If he took the time to mention the soil problems surely he would have said something about the horrible impact of man's will being so corrupted that not even a divinely powerful message of reconciliation is effective. Can you show me where that is?

Was this question ever answered?

 

[ituttut]

Non-Jews could participate in the Passover, which is a figure of Christ (Num 9:14)

Yes, I see you know what the Bible teaches as the Passover pointed to the everlasting saving blood of Messiah. But the Gentile had to come, and become as the Jew in being circumcised, and live under the Law of Moses, and the ordinances. That is a far cry of how we are justified today.

While He walked this earth as a man did Jesus say He came for only His sheep that are of Israel? What I see, in so many cases on this board, is the association being made that We are one and the same as Israel, as depicted before His crucifixion, entombed for 72 hours, resurrection, then ascension to be with His Father in heaven.

The point I'm trying to make (show) is the Gospel of Jesus Christ did not stop at Pentecost.

 

[quantumfaith]

Was this question ever answered?

I have asked the same question a few times.....some time back.

 

[ituttut]

Was this question ever answered?

I believe your thoughtfully put question carriers the answer in itself. There can be no answer that will be correct for God made us in His own image.

 

[12strings]

As Moses said, "Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.

So, all sin is bad, but this was an especially great sin.

You said that willfully rejecting God or christ gets one's name blotted out of the book...The Israelites nearly ALL did this, yet god only destroyed a certain number of them, giving the others more chances to obey and follow him. Are you saying most of these also had their names blotted out, but God simply let them live longer before their condemnation? Or did they get a chance to get their name back in? Or were they never blotted out at all? I think it is very difficult to say just exactly what gets one's name blotted out.

--------------------------
Also, someone said this a few posts back:

Calvinism teaches a man is born dead and a slave, and that this leads to sin.

You all should know that Arminianism teaches the exact same thing...They just believe God applies "prevenient grace" to ALL these dead people, who then have the choice to accept or reject.

From James Arminias:

But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.

and...

For in Adam “all have sinned.” (Rom. 5: 12) Wherefore, whatever punishment was brought down upon our first parents, has likewise pervaded and yet pursues all their posterity. So that all men “are by nature the children of wrath,” (Ephesians 2:3) obnoxious to condemnation, and to temporal as well as to eternal death; they are also devoid of that original righteousness and holiness. (Rom. 5:12, 18-19) With these evils they would remain oppressed forever, unless they were liberated by Christ Jesus; to whom be glory forever.

John Wesley put it this way:

All who deny this, call it original sin, or by any other title, are put Heathens still, in the fundamental point which differences Heathenism from Christianity. They may, indeed, allow, that men have many vices; that some are born with us; and that, consequently, we are not born altogether so wise or so virtuous as we should be; there being few that will roundly affirm, “We are born with as much inclination to good as to evil, and that every man is, by nature, as virtuous and wise as Adam was at his creation.” But here is the shibboleth: Is man by nature filled with all manner of evil? Is he void of all good? Is he wholly fallen? Is his soul totally corrupted? Or, to come back to the text, is “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart only evil continually?” Allow this, and you are so far a Christian. Deny it, and you are but an Heathen still.

I know these men are not infallible in their opinions, I simply wanted to point out that the view espoused on this board that denies Original sin and the bondage of man's will in sin is not the traditional arminian view.

P.S. I'm also not saying you are "heathens" I think someone can missunderstand this and be a christian.

 

[Winman]

It is not for me to say who's name was blotted out. But of all the adults that were alive when they sinned, only Joshua and Caleb were allowed to enter the promised land. However, all the children were allowed to enter, as God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. (Deut 1:39, Eze 18:20)

And anybody that says all sinned in Adam are misrepresenting scripture, the term "in Adam" occurs one single time in the Bible in 1 Cor 15:22. This verse says, "For as in Adam all die". It does not say we are born dead, the dead cannot die. Also, this verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual, the theme of this chapter is the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death. Read and see for yourself.

So, this is one of the most misquoted verses in all scripture.

 

[Skandelon]

I know these men are not infallible in their opinions, I simply wanted to point out that the view espoused on this board that denies Original sin and the bondage of man's will in sin is not the traditional arminian view.

P.S. I'm also not saying you are "heathens" I think someone can missunderstand this and be a christian.

I can't speak for others here, but I've always affirmed the doctrine of Original Sin, but I deny the Calvinistic teaching of "Total Inability." There is a distinction.

Original sin teaches we are born enemies of God, but doesn't attempt to deny that God's appeal to be reconciled is somehow insufficient to bring reconciliation.

 

[12strings]

I can't speak for others here, but I've always affirmed the doctrine of Original Sin, but I deny the Calvinistic teaching of "Total Inability." There is a distinction.

Original sin teaches we are born enemies of God, but doesn't attempt to deny that God's appeal to be reconciled is somehow insufficient to bring reconciliation.

There was a thread on here that was debating whether Original sin is biblical or not... I can't remember who was on which side.

However, would you not agree, based on Arminius and Wesley's quotes above, that your view is different in that you do not see the necessity for God to "enable" someone to respond positively to the message, since the message itself is sufficient?

 

[Skandelon]

There was a thread on here that was debating whether Original sin is biblical or not... I can't remember who was on which side.

However, would you not agree, based on Arminius and Wesley's quotes above, that your view is different in that you do not see the necessity for God to "enable" someone to respond positively to the message, since the message itself is sufficient?

I see the difference as semantical in some regard, because the message itself IS OF GOD. In other words IT IS HIS WORK, thus anything IT accomplishes is fully credited to God.

Let me explain it this way. Suppose I told you something in my own words. That would be my words and my message, right?

Now, suppose God divinely and supernaturally inspired me to tell you HIS words. Would that not be His words and His message? So, who would get the credit for the impact that message had on you? Me or God?

So, if there are some Arminians who teach of some extra 'enabling work,' I can almost guarantee you they would NOT separate it from the Gospel, as is true with many scholarly Calvinists with regard to their view of "effectual/irresistible working." They recognize the indisputable biblical evidence regarding the power of Gospel, so in their mind any "POWER" or "ENABLING FORCE" can NOT be divorced from the means of the gospel. The only difference for me is that I CREDIT the gospel for this work because I believe that is what the scripture does. It speaks of the gospel power, not the extra inward supernatural spiritual force. Now, maybe the Spirit is doing some extra inward work at the same moment the gospel is being preached so as to make it powerful, that's fine, but to be consistent biblically the power is the Gospel, which IS a WORK of the HOLY SPIRIT. Make sense? I just refuse to divorce the gospel from it's power. The gospel is the means God has chosen to accomplish a spiritual inward working and I know we can't fully understand that, but what we can know is that the gospel has power, because the bible say so. Okay?

 

[Skandelon]

Just one more quick point 12strings,

Notice what Arminius says, "he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace."

Is the Gospel, which was inspired, produced, preserved and carried by the Holy Spirit not considered an "aid of divine grace?'