Freedom (Free Will),Free Will Stopped at the Garden

[ryarn]

]We only know the real meaning of Freedom when we are saved,outside of that we know no freedom.As for free will,the only time it is free will is after we are saved.When we were sinners we were a slave to sin so we were not really free or had a free will.Since we are saved we have a choice to do his will and get rewarded for it or not to do his will and lose our reward.This is the time we really have any choice.:saint:

 

[ryarn]

Free will stopped at the GARDEN !:thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

Free will stopped at the GARDEN !:thumbsup:

Hello ryarn, and welcome to Baptist Board.

If free will stopped at the garden of Eden, why does Joshua ask the Israelites to choose either the one true God or false gods?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

 

[JesusFan]

Hello ryarn, and welcome to Baptist Board.

If free will stopped at the garden of Eden, why does Joshua ask the Israelites to choose either the one true God or false gods?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Well...

"Real" free will for manking indeeds topped in garden, as Adam was created to have such, as was Satan, but both Lost that capability after their fall...

We ALL now have the "Bondage of the Human Will" as a direct result of their 'free will moral decisions!"

 

[ryarn]

Hello ryarn, and welcome to Baptist Board.

If free will stopped at the garden of Eden, why does Joshua ask the Israelites to choose either the one true God or false gods?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Obviously he was a Godly man so he had the choice to do GOD's will or not to do GOD's will and accept the consequences of his actions if he didn't.If he was not GOD's he would have no choice.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[ryarn]

Well...

"Real" free will for manking indeeds topped in garden, as Adam was created to have such, as was Satan, but both Lost that capability after their fall...

We ALL now have the "Bondage of the Human Will" as a direct result of their 'free will moral decisions!"

That's why JESUS came because we were not capable to bring ourselves to GOD accept HE draw us to HIM.OH what LOVE HE has for us to make that decision for us.:thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

Obviously he was a Godly man so he had the choice to do GOD's will or not to do GOD's will and accept the consequences of his actions if he didn't.If he was not GOD's he would have no choice.:smilewinkgrin:

Joshua is speaking to the Israelites. They are given a choice to serve the Lord, the one true God, or go back to their false gods. I don't see any distinction made as to the mindset or saved condition of the people being offered the choice. I think you are reading that into this passage, because I don't see it.

 

[preachinjesus]

You are absolutely free to believe that!

 

[The Archangel]

Hello ryarn, and welcome to Baptist Board.

If free will stopped at the garden of Eden, why does Joshua ask the Israelites to choose either the one true God or false gods?

Joshua 24:15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

Almost everyone brings this up. Almost no one realizes that Joshua is addressing the covenant community to which God has already revealed Himself in all of His awesome glory.

This God is not unknown to these people.

Also, remember that God does indeed give "choice" to the Israelites to believe just as He does indeed give "choice" to all mankind to believe. It is just that He Himself ensures the elect are willing to choose.

Israel--the entire nation--had both believers and non-believers in it. We see this very clearly in 1 Kings 19:18 where we see God Himself keeping a remnant for Himself--ensuring they will be faithful believers.

The church, however, is quite different--there are no unbelievers in the Universal Church, though there may be (and likely are) unbelievers in the local church.

It is interesting that when God, through the prophets, discusses the New Covenant the onus of things is placed, not on the people, but on God Himself in causing obedient faithfulness.

The Archangel

 

[ituttut]

]We only know the real meaning of Freedom when we are saved,outside of that we know no freedom.As for free will,the only time it is free will is after we are saved.When we were sinners we were a slave to sin so we were not really free or had a free will.Since we are saved we have a choice to do his will and get rewarded for it or not to do his will and lose our reward.This is the time we really have any choice.:saint:

If we all, who are born sinners have no freedom, how is it as long as one is unsaved to not have the freedom to remain unsaved?

How does one move about without Free Will? Eve was deceived for she was not the Head. Can we ask what choice Adam made, showing who he loved most? He chose his body desires, AS time went on, I believe from Adam came Noah. If we start over again, beginning with Noah I believe this is where we will find free will still lives.

Noah must have had Free Will, for of the entire population of the earth (millions) were corrupt. This one man was just in God's sight. I believe as Noah lived, in that time frame, God found Noah complete enough to begin again. God gave to Noah the same instructions as He did to Adam, to be fruitful, mollify, and replenish the earth. He also told of new things. Also we see this is where God's begins to show His Grace to Us.

 

[Skandelon]

]We only know the real meaning of Freedom when we are saved,outside of that we know no freedom.As for free will,the only time it is free will is after we are saved.When we were sinners we were a slave to sin so we were not really free or had a free will.Since we are saved we have a choice to do his will and get rewarded for it or not to do his will and lose our reward.This is the time we really have any choice.:saint:

When I read the account of the Fall of man in Genesis I see were it speaks of all the curses that came with the fall. I read where it talks of the toiling the land and labor pains. I see where it teaches that men now know both good and evil.

But, can one of you show me where it talks about this seemingly very significant curse by where all of mankind is born unable to willingly believe any message of reconciliation from God? Something that huge would certainly have been mentioned, right? If he took the time to mention the soil problems surely he would have said something about the horrible impact of man's will being so corrupted that not even a divinely powerful message of reconciliation is effective. Can you show me where that is?

 

[webdog]

Obviously he was a Godly man so he had the choice to do GOD's will or not to do GOD's will and accept the consequences of his actions if he didn't.If he was not GOD's he would have no choice.:smilewinkgrin:

...then there is no choice for the reprobates in rejecting Christ as the cal's on this board continue to illogically state. Thanks for clearing that up

Welcome to the BB, btw :thumbs:

 

[Amy.G]

If he took the time to mention the soil problems surely he would have said something about the horrible impact of man's will being so corrupted that not even a divinely powerful message of reconciliation is absolutely ineffective. Can you show me where that is?

Yes. It is in the land of


NOOOOOWHERE!

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. It is in the land of


NOOOOOWHERE!

Well, to cals its the "Highway to heaven"

While non calls here call it "the yellow brick road"
(referring to the idea of DoG!)

 

[Amy.G]

Well, to cals its the "Highway to heaven"

While non calls here call it "the yellow brick road"
(referring to the idea of DoG!)

I have no idea what that means, but you didn't answer Skan's question.

 

[matt wade]

I have no idea what that means, but you didn't answer Skan's question.

Of course he didn't JesusFan just runs a side show until the heavy hitters (the ones that know how to really twist some words) come in and type a whole lot and never answer the question.

 

[JesusFan]

Of course he didn't JesusFan just runs a side show until the heavy hitters (the ones that know how to really twist some words) come in and type a whole lot and never answer the question.

Well, I DO answer those questions, it just that at times the Bible doesn't seem to be "good enough" for the answers!

Am I then the cal "court jester?"

 

[matt wade]

Well, I DO answer those questions, it just that at times the Bible doesn't seem to be "good enough" for the answers!

Skandelon's question was where something was specifically located in the Bible. In this case the Bible would be plenty enough. Simply answer his question and provide the Scripture.

Am I then the cal "court jester?"

Sounds good...

 

[Winman]

Has anyone ever noticed Calvinists never supply one word of scripture to support this theory that unsaved men do not have free will?

Fact is, God himself said men have free will.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

Augustine, Luther, and Calvin were so busy misinterpreting Romans, I guess none of them got around to studying Leviticus. God himself said men have their OWN VOLUNTARY WILL.

And notice God spoke of "any man of you", not just a select few.

It's almost as if God foresaw this false doctrine that would appear, and provided scripture that directly refutes it.

 

[jbh28]

Reply to Winman

Has anyone ever noticed Calvinists never supply one word of scripture to support this theory that unsaved men do not have free will?

Well, that's simply untrue. No need to put comments like that in here.

Fact is, God himself said men have free will.

Lev 1:1 And the LORD called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the LORD, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.

This is not "free will" No one teaches that people cannot make choices. No one teaches that people cannot volunteer for something without being forced to do something.

Augustine, Luther, and Calvin were so busy misinterpreting Romans, I guess none of them got around to studying Leviticus. God himself said men have their OWN VOLUNTARY WILL.

Jesus said we are a slave to sin.

And notice God spoke of "any man of you", not just a select few.

of course. just like "any man of you" or "whosoever" believe will be saved.

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General Reply
I think it may be good to define what is meant by the term "free will." Does it mean we are free to choose anything we want? Does it mean we can choose anything, regardless of desires? If you mean the former, then I agree. If you mean the latter, then no.

We are free to choose anything we want. What's wrong with the natural man is that his "wanter" is busted. His desires are not desires for Christ, but for his own.