"Freedom of the Will"

[connieman]

Conniman has been suspended from this board temporarily while he considers his abrasive attitude in posting. He has been informed privately of this and his refusal to cease necessitates a public posting.

Failure to follow the board's rules will result in similar banning.

[ June 15, 2002, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The plan was the only thing that was predestined!

And how do you predestine a plan without determining people to carry out that plan? Does this mean God might have predetermined that Jesus would be crucified, but if none of the proper people happened to cooperate, then God's predetermined plan would be caput?

And Pilate and Herod and all those others didn't gather together, they were gathered together. The were gathered together (they received the action) to do what God had determined beforehand would be done (a statement of the purpose for which they have been gathered).</font>[/QUOTE]The word for gathered together doesn't mean that God did the gathering. In Matthew 22:41, we see that the Pharisees were gathered and it seems that they were the ones gathering themselves.

Maybe God know that if Herod and Pilate didn't do it, someone else would. Regardless, the passage still doesn't say that God made Herod and Pilate do what they did.

 

[TomMann]

I am continually amazed at the revealed simplicity of the gospel, and man’s attempts to
complicate it. Since the garden, men have been trying to cop a slice of the sovereignty pie.
Trying to be god, or to be like god....... to have control over their own destiny, to be the captains of their own fates. Over and over in the testaments, new and old alike, his every attempt is futile. Salvation is and always has been God’s choice of man, never man’s choice of God. To believe otherwise is to deny the truth of God’s Word, which is Christ Jesus. Now I know all the scriptures that have been used on both sides of the "free will" debate. You know what makes sense to you, I know what makes sense to me. I don't have to try to win anyone over to my way of thinking because if the Lord hasn't opened the eyes of your understanding, I certainly won't be able to with my megar skills. I do leave you with my own paraphrase of some of our Lords words. "Man cannot come to Jesus unless God draws him, and if God draws him he cannot not come to Jesus. He will be saved."

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by TomMann:
"Man cannot come to Jesus unless God draws him, and if God draws him he cannot not come to Jesus. He will be saved."[/QB]

Then why does God draw all men, Tom? Does that mean everyone is saved?

 

[russell55]

Scott,

Why do you think "all" always (or even just in this case) means every single person that has ever lived?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by russell55:
Scott,

Why do you think "all" always (or even just in this case) means every single person that has ever lived?

Because in the verse and in the language, there is NO evidence that it is being limited by another object.

For example, "all of us" refers to a different set than "all." "All Christians" refers to a different set than "all." When all is found in Scripture, the hermeneutics strongly suggest to take the word for what it is worth.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
]Because in the verse and in the language, there is NO evidence that it is being limited by another object.

For example, "all of us" refers to a different set than "all." "All Christians" refers to a different set than "all." When all is found in Scripture, the hermeneutics strongly suggest to take the word for what it is worth.

I agree that we shoudl take the word for what it is worth. The question is, What is it worth? If we compare Scripture and take all of Scripture into account, it seems hard for it to mean "all men without exception" since John 6 makes it clear that all who the Father draws will come. Read Morris's comments on this verse in the NICNT.

 

[russell55]

When all is found in Scripture, the hermeneutics strongly suggest to take the word for what it is worth.

With "all" being such a tricky word to define exactly in the NT Greek, the hermeneutics suggest we hold to our definitions lightly.

If the word can mean "all without distinction" as opposed to "all without exception", how do you determine that it is "all without exception" here?

 

[TomMann]

Two lines of thought here. First “I will draw all men to me”, could mean men every tribe and tongue instead of every man on the face of the earth, Huh! Just a thought, because the
Jews were (up to now) the only chosen of God. Maybe he was giving them a sneak preview of salvation coming to the gentiles.

Acts 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every
man had need. Now if they were parted to all men, and all men always means all men,
did every man on the face of the earth at that time recieve a share?

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: They were men themselves, did they hate each other also?

Mark 1:37 And when they had found him, they said unto him, All men seek for thee. Is
it possible there were men on the face of the earth that hadn’t even heard of Him, much
less were seeking Him?

Is all always all inclusive?

Is it possible that Jesus was saying I will draw all men that thou hast given me.... because if the Father hadn't given them they were not free to come. "John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Second, who is doing the drawing.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and
I will raise him up at the last day. “The Father doing the drawing.”

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
“Jesus doing the drawing” .

So now we have drawn by the Father, I shall raise him up the last day....

Drawn by the Son John 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.

 

[hrhema]

If God predestines man's salvation by forcing salvation on some and denying it for others as some claim then Jesus died in vain.

If God forces certain people to be saved please tell me what the purpose of the cross is? Why would Jesus have to die and shed his blood? God has already decided who will be saved and who will not be saved so there was no reason for Calvary. In God's sovereign power he could absolve people of their sins just by saying so.

If people are predestined then why do they even have to believe to be saved as the Bible says. Why do they not just live any ole way they want to. Just feed the flesh with all its terrible desires because you see they cannot go to Hell because they are predestined for Heaven. They don't even have to accept Jesus, believe in God or anything to go to Heaven because it is already decided. Other people might as well go ahead and become mass murderers. Become sexual predators. They are going to Hell anyhow so they might as well live the fullest of sin and abomination.

Salvation was predestined. So was the cross.
The Bible says that God is not willing for any to perish but that all will come to salvation but that does not mean they will.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by hrhema:
If God predestines man's salvation by forcing salvation on some and denying it for others as some claim then Jesus died in vain.

No one has said this.

If God forces certain people to be saved please tell me what the purpose of the cross is? Why would Jesus have to die and shed his blood?

Because the consequent absolute necessity brought by sin was a just and fair payment for it. Once God decided to save sinners, there was only one way. God would be unjust and unholy to save people apart from teh death of Christ.

If people are predestined then why do they even have to believe to be saved as the Bible says.

Because part of predestination is belief (Phil 1:30; Acts 13:48; 2 Thess 2:13).

Why do they not just live any ole way they want to.

Becuase predestination involves being "in Christ" and if any man is in Christ he is a new creature; old things have passed away; all things are new (2 Cor 5:17). If there has been no change, then there has been no change. God saved us to good works, which he before ordained that we should walk in them (Eph 2:10).

Your comments are based on a misrepresentation of what Scripture teaches. It has taken a caricature and run with it when Calvinists believe no such thing.

 

[Nelson]

Hrhema: If God predestines man's salvation by forcing salvation on some and denying it for others as some claim then Jesus died in vain.

Larry: No one has said this.

Unfortunately, there is a failure to explain why, according to the Reformed tradition, salvation is not that which is forced.

In the Reformed tradition, the sinner is not forced to be saved because: (1) God specifically chose him (reasons unknown); (2) In choosing him, God gave him a heart to desire and seek after salvation; and (3) In giving such a heart, God gives him the faith in order that he would be empowered to willingly and agreeably accept salvation.

The unsaved are not forced to be damned against their will because: (1) They, as specific individuals, have been passed over for salvation (again, reasons unknown); (2) In passing them over, God has left them to a nature with the absolute inability to desire, obey, and believe in Christ; (3) In leaving them with this inability, the sinner remains willingly rebellious against God and is inevitably condemned to hell.

Accordingly, if my assessment is correct, the Calvinist can never be accused of teaching that God forces salvation on one or rejects another who wants to be saved since in the former God gives them the heart to want salvation because he choose them and in the latter God refrains from giving them a heart to want salvation because He did not choose them.

My conclusion: Accordingly, the ultimate ground and deciding factor in an individual’s salvation or damnation is not the Cross but God’s free and eternal choice. The Cross is the means whereby one is saved and may be used to differentiate between the saved and the lost, however, it does not ultimately determine who is saved.

If there is anywhere, except in the last paragraph since that is my personal assessment, a misrepresentation of the Reformed tradition, please advise.

 

[Ray Berrian]

The Lord does not parcel out faith like we hand out candy to children. When I give candy to children I offer it to all of the children. Wish salvation was like that candy because all would receive it from our Lord.

Faith comes from the mind and heart of humans. They are autonomous over their final destiny. Note Romans 4:5 tells us that humankind make decisions as to their final abiding place. 'But to him/her who worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, "his/her faith is counted for righteousness.'

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The Lord does not parcel out faith like we hand out candy to children. When I give candy to children I offer it to all of the children. Wish salvation was like that candy because all would receive it from our Lord.

The Scriptures say the opposite of what you have said, Ray.

(Rom 12:3 NKJV) For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken,

Romans 12:3 is not pointing out an arbitrary selection of people for salvation and faith but rather the Apostle Paul is dealing with Christian service and living out the Christian way of life. Admittedly, God gives to all of the people of God different and measured gifts to use within the wall of the local church and in secular society. Please, consider the context. Romans 12 is a very practical teaching in counterdistinction to heavy theology.

 

[KenH]

Ray,

I was not attempting to make a heavy theological point. You said God did not parcel out faith. I was simply pointing out the Bible says He does. That's all I was doing.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

[Nelson]

Ray Berrian: Since God has the sovereign power and autonomous will over everything and person, He chose to give us a free will...

by Larry: If God has sovereign power and autonomous will, then he can certainly give us a free will. But once he gives us a free will, he no longer has sovereign power and autonomous will...

"But as pointed out before, you have engaged in an inherent inconsistency, either by slip of the keyboard or slip of the thought process" because you seem to be stating that divine sovereignty, once free will beings are created, is no longer an essential attribute of God's nature. If that's true (1) He lost his sovereignty long before He created man and at, least, since he created angels, and (2) He is less than all-powerful, which no longer makes Him "God."

God will always possess sovereign power, just like the grown man who restrained from smacking the little child will always retain strength over the child, even at the moment of restraint.

God His not "no longer sovereign;" but he he humble, so humble as to restrain is power to the point of allowing men to share in creating and determining. God will always have the power to totally annihilate all free-will beings, human and angelic, and choose to go His own sovereign way as before, being absolutely autonomous and exercising unhindered free will.

by Larry: ...Yet we do not impugn the freedom of God; we maintain that God is a free being. In the same way, we can assert without contradiction that man is a free being and yet is limited by the confines of his nature.

(1) Another slip of the keyboard. It has been pointed out that man's nature compared to God's nature, though similiar, is not exactly the same.

(2) You have intimated many times on this board that believers still maintain a depraved nature (e.g. when it is stated to a believer that he cannot understand the unity between divine sovereignty and man's free will due to a depraved mind). If this is true and believers operate free will according to the confines of their nature, then it operates within the confines of (I would assume) both their depraved and new nature (and, as it is, a depraved nature has the ability to reject God and His salvation).

(3) Man's nature, at least, with respect to a believer, includes the ability to choose between opposing choices; to do evil or to do good; to believe God or disbelieve God; to remain in the faith or apostasize, etc, all within the confines of that nature as a created free-will being.

[ June 21, 2002, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Nelson ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

God is so humble as to give human beings a chance to participate in shaping and determining??? You have got to be kidding me. Where is your scriptural support for this? (The longer this goes the better it gets )

 

[Nelson]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry: God is so humble as to give human beings a chance to participate in shaping and determining??? You have got to be kidding me. Where is your scriptural support for this? (The longer this goes the better it gets.

1. Biblical examples: Abraham's conversation with God regarding destruction of Sodom; God adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life; God giving David a choice of what punishment to be administered; Amos' prayer that God would stay His judgment. On the assumption that one takes the "clear meaning" of Scripture, these narratives are sufficient to demonstrate man's participation in shaping and determining.

2. Common sense, e.g. in evangelism, witnessing, mentoring, discipleship; in praying.

I believe that God is humble, at least that was what he demonstrated at the Cross.

[ June 24, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Nelson:
1. Biblical examples: Abraham's conversation with God regarding destruction of Sodom; God adding 15 years to Hezekiah's life; God giving David a choice of what punishment to be administered; Amos' prayer that God would stay His judgment. On the assumption that one takes the "clear meaning" of Scripture, these narratives are sufficient to demonstrate man's participation in shaping and determining.

This is a far cry from what you appeared to be implying above.

2. Common sense, e.g. in evangelism, witnessing, mentoring, discipleship; in praying.

Again, no where is this proven from Scripture that it happens apart from God's will.

I believe that God is humble, at least that was what he demonstrated at the Cross.

Christ was humbled at the cross, not God. God was magnified at the cross.

[ June 24, 2002, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]