Freedom of the Will

[Winman]

Romans 8:7 shows they are inseperably related and so to state one is to include the other. In Romans 8:7 the WOULD NOT is stated first and causal to the could not. Hence, Jesus stated it correctly as he said "would not". This is all above your pay grade.

Romans 8:7 could POSSIBLY be teaching inability. It really could. It could also be saying that when a person gives the flesh his supreme attention, at those times he cannot please God.

That is why I gave the analogy of looking at a young girl in a bikini. There is no way you can please your wife while you are doing this. This does not mean you are unable to look away and please her. But while you are staring at that young girl, no way is your wife going to be happy.

So, Romans 8:7 could be seen in this sense also. It really could. So how do you determine which meaning is meant? You must go to many other scriptures and see what the Bible teaches. And this is where Cornelius comes in, he was not saved, and he did not have the Spirit, yet he was able to believe and do good works. But there is much more scripture than this;

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

We know that hundreds, if not thousands of Jews believed on Jesus Christ before he was crucified and rose from the dead, yet none of these persons had the indwelling Spirit, as the Spirit was not yet given.

Nobody in the OT had the indwelling Spirit, the promise of the Spirit was future to OT believers.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

We know this was not fulfilled until the day of Pentacost;

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

The OT saints did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Yet they were able to believe, and they were able to do good works.

So your interpretation of Romans 8:7 is easily refuted. It is not saying that persons without the Spirit are unable to believe or do good, it is simply saying while they are carnally minded, while they give their supreme attention to the flesh that they cannot please God.

Another tactic of false teachers. When they are pinned, respond by ridicule and make a joke out of it - ta da! However, your ridicule does not reverse cause and consequences or make Romans 8:28 disappear or make verse 29 precede verse 28 so the joke is on you.

I have pointed out where Calvinism interprets scripture in exact reverse dozens of times. That is why I laughed at you for accusing me of that.

You can't prove "the beginning" has reference to before the world began. The context would imply from the beginning of their profession as disciples. It only implies his omnicience not necessarily foreknowledge. However, again, foreknowledge the consequence of purpose as Romans 8:28 proves as verse 29 is a consequence not the cause, it is the working out of the purpose not the cause of the purpose.

Nonsense, it was prophesied that Judas would betray Jesus for thirty pieces of silver hundreds of years before he was born.

Zec 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

The fact of the matter I was supernaturally "zapped" with knowledge defined as "light" or revelation directly from God as was Peter (Mt. 16:17 and was Paul - Gal. 1:16-17) as are all TRUE children of God. Only false professors are not.

No you weren't. Until you heard Jesus preached to you or taught to you by someone like your parents, you had no idea who Jesus was and in no way could believe on him.

John 6:45 says NOTHING about the word of God being preached to anyone but is referring specially to only the work that God can do alone as the one coming to christ is presented in the PASSIVE voice.

Nonsense. Again, until you heard the word of God from a preacher or someone like your parents, you had no idea who Jesus was and therefore could not believe on him.

You must pervert God's word to teach your false doctrine. You must insert what it is not there change what is there and that is what your interpretation is based upon and characterized by - the mishandling of God's Word.

Right.

That is rediculous. The Word of God had been given to them by your own confession but John 6:65 is about what had NOT BEEN GIVEN to them. They had not been given faith to believe in the Word they heard with their external ears. They had not been taught by the Father. They had not learned of the Father. They had not heard the Father and therefore they did not truely come to Christ in faith.

OK, first, it is ridiculous, there is no "e" in this word. Secondly, Jesus in fact said the words that he spoke were spirit and life "but some of you believe not" then he says "Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father"

God gives the word, we have to do the believing. The word only works in those that believe, so only those that believe can come.

Did anyone deny the word of God works effectually in believers? No! We are talking about unbelievers who become believers and the cause behind it not about believers who have that cause already existing in them.

Calvinism teaches the exact opposite of scripture. Calvinism teaches that the word of God effectually works in the elect to cause a man to believe. That is the exact opposite of what scripture says. The scriptures say the word of God works effectually in them that believe.

Your posts are too long...

 

[Winman]

continued...

You are again confusing the preached word with the internal application of God's word within man as in 2 Cor. 4:6 which is solely the work of God. Your position depends on confusing the two OR going back and forth and pitting one against the other. You can't discern between cause and effect. If simply the preached word of God is the power to salvation then it should save everyone it is preached to as the very same problem (sin) is the obstacle in all who hear it. However, even your position must admit that the plain preaching of the gospel is NOT SUFFICIENT alone to save anyone. You must admit that the Holy Spirit must first do an INTERNAL WORK for anyone to be saved by the gospel. Hence, what I am teaching is not only what the Bible clearly teaches (2 Cor. 4:6) by divine fiat saving knowledge is imparted but effectually so as in Gen. 1:3.

There you go. You prove my point.

The Holy Spirit "reproves" the world of sin. The Holy Spirit enlightens (teaches) and convicts. The Holy Spirit does not cause a person to believe however, a man must choose to believe himself.

You perverted the text and you know it now you are attempting to back out by ridicule. I said he had been "cleansed" prior to Peter coming and had been "received" prior to Peter coming and you responded that it was the "sheet" that was unclean in direct response to my assertion that the animals had typified Cornelius and his household as Peter clearly states to them. Thus Cornelious as represented by the animals in the vision had already been "cleansed" previous to Peter's arrival and previously "received" prior to Peter's arrival becuase they were already beleivers in the Old Testament gospel (Acts 10:43) but their lives had not been "saved" or incoporated into the new way of service - the house of God - the church.

It does not say that Cornelius was cleaned. It was teaching Peter that the Gentiles were no longer considered unclean. Jews did not have regular contact with Gentiles, especially in religious matters.

Jhn 4:9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.

This is what God was teaching Peter, that he could now go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel to them. Before they had only gone to the Jews. But Cornelius was not saved, we are directly told that. He had not believed on Jesus yet, and he did not have the Spirit yet.

Thus according to your rediculous interpetation everyone prior to Pentecose was "none of his" but were the Devils. So much for hebrews 11 huh?

No, but after Pentacost men were required to believe on Jesus.

You don't understand the nature of the baptism of the Spirit as it is a CORPORATE act. The difference between the baptism in the Spirit and personally indwelling by the Spirit is the difference between 1 Cor. 3:16 and 1 Cor. 6:19 - go study it.

Right. I showed you where Cornelius was baptized AFTER he believed and received the Spirit. Maybe you need to study again.

Again, you don't understand the doctrine of the baptism of the Spirit and thus can't understand my point is perfectly consistent with the fact they were not yet water baptized. The baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with personal salvation at all. It is the public accrediting and indwelling of the PUBLIC HOUSE OF GOD. The Jews would not water baptize Gentiles apart from this PUBLIC ACT OF ACCREDITATION by God which confirms them as accepted by God for WATER BAPTIMS INTO THE NEW HOUSE OF GOD -the church.

Right, It is I that is all mixed up. Even though I refute you with scripture time and time again. Right.

Your posts are too long like Agedman. You, like him seem to believe you can make something true by using ten thousand words. Not true.

 

[agedman]

Winman, Did I not read that you consider attempts to derail a thread typical of those who have no foundational support for the view they hold?

Perhaps, because you brought up the topic and I don't want readers of the BB to be misinformed, it is prudent that a short post be made to explain Baptism of or in the Holy Spirit.

This topic is highly controversial and many have been schooled to accept that the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is the same and not a different anointing of Holy Spirit and complete at salvation.


However, there are scholars that do accept that there is another time when the believer may "be filled with the Spirit" (as Paul expressed to the Ephesian believers).

This happens AFTER salvation and water baptism.

To start, look at these two events:

John 20:22

And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
​

Acts1:4-5

4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”​

The apostles receive the Holy Spirit from Christ, but are "baptized with the Holy Spirit at a later time.

Paul tells the Ephesians,

"Don't be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit." That seems to indicate that there is a filling that is also accompanied by a change in worship, attitude, and ministry. (Eph. 5)
​

Another example (other than the apostles and what Paul declares) is that of the Lord Jesus.

One would never say that He was not "saved," yet when do witnesses see He received (baptized) the Holy Spirit? After He was baptized with water.

The "Baptism (of, in, by) the Holy Spirit" is also testified by some occurring as a special anointing or call. One might experience such an exercise by the Spirit when "called to the ministry" or even in a time when the believer has come in repentance of a sinful life at a time of rededication.

In these instances, the testimony's declare that they have been given a clearer insight into God's word, a far greater love, and dedication to the things of God.

Unfortunately, there are some who have perverted the Scriptures by taking as evidence of this filling or baptism some form of public glossolalia. I do not find that as Scriptural.


Winam,
I do not know Biblicists reasoning, but I merely put this post together to show readers of the BB that being filled (baptized) with the Holy Spirit is both Scriptural and valuable. It does occur AFTER salvation and water baptism.

If you are to attempt to refute him, you don't have much solid ground using this topic.

 

[Winman]

Agedman

No one had the indwelling Spirit until Jesus was raised from the dead and glorified.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Now, we know for a fact that hundreds, if not thousands of Jews (and a few Gentiles) believed on Jesus before the Holy Spirit was given.

OT saints did not have the indwelling Spirit, it was a future promise that Peter said was fulfilled at Pentacost.

Joe 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.

Jesus himself promised to send the Holy Spirit to his disciples and said he would be "in you". Up to this time the Spirit had dwelled "with you". So, the Spirit was WITH THEM but not IN THEM. Huge difference.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Note that Jesus distinguishes between the Spirit being "with you" and "in you". They did not have the Spirit IN them yet, this is the INdwelling Holy Spirit spoken of in Romans 8:9. Yet they were able to believe. So this proves unregenerate men can believe.

But... what about Romans 8:9? Romans 8:9 says that if a person has not the indwelling Spirit, they are none of Christ's.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

This is why I believe the OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom as shown in Luke 16. They did not have the Spirit and could not go directly to heaven.

I believe after Jesus ascended to heaven and sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat, he returned to Abraham's bosom and gave the saints there the indwelling Spirit. After that he was able to lead them to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

This is when I believe Jesus gave the indwelling Holy Spirit to all the OT saints who were waiting in Abraham's bosom or paradise. After this he was able to lead them to heaven. Now all believers receive the Spirit upon believing on Jesus and go directly to heaven when they die.