Freemasonry vs. Christianity

[Jacob Webber]

You said you would be naive to sugget even after reading the Bible cover to cover twice that you are an expert.

But yet you read a paragraph or two out of a couple of books without reading the rest of the book and you are an expert on freemasonry.

I think not.

You take paragraphes out of books you have not read and have no ideal what so every the rest of the book says and you state that paragraph as the set in stone of Freemasonry.

You need to think about what you are doing. you do not just crab bits and pieces and declare that it stands for all Masons and All Grand Lodges.

You have quoted before that no one person speaks for Freemasonry. But you will use what the one person said if it suits you.

You have also said that I could only use Grand Lodge Documents to make the case for Freemasonry. But you contuine to use Documents that are not Grand Lodge documents to make your point.

Their is a double standard you are using. I have presented Grand Lodge Docs that state Jesus Christ and even state He is the resurrection and the Life even the SBC has stated it.

But you will not accept what the SBC has stated or what Grand Lodges have stated if it does not suit you, You will only use that which you can twist or present out of context

 

[O.F.F.]

Jacob, just in case you missed it, I'll say it again:

I don't need to prove to you how much of these books I've read. As a Christian Mason who chooses to defend the teachings of Freemasonry, you need to prove these Masonic brethren of yours to be wrong about Masonry. Can you do that? I have challenged YOU to refute their claims. If you can, do so, or stop trying to divert attention from what they have to say about your "fraternity."

O.F.F.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Mike
What you have failed to understand is that every Masons is allowed to interpute the Ritual as they want.

Please explain to me Mike how it is that you will not accept any other interputation than that of which condems Freemaosnry. I do not know if any of the Writters are Christian or not.

I have been told by Grand Lodge Officers that the Book Morals & Dogma is not recommended reading. Because of Pike's style of Writting.

I also have been told by Grand Lodge Officers that Jesus is in the Ritual and this has been backed up by the Masonic Bible.

No other religion believes in God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity. No other Religion states the Lion of the Tribe of Judah being Jesus Christ or for that matter the only other Religion that has Lion of the Tribe of Judah is Judaism which is what Christianity completes. No other Religion states you must be without sin to enter Heaven other than Judaism and Christianty all others are based on your own Merits.

Freemasonry started long before Albert Pike was born. Long before the Scottish Rite was made. Those that brought Freemaosnry out into the public were Ministers (Anderson). The Teachings of Freemaosnry do not come from anceint Egypt they come from the New Testiment. They teachings of Faith, Hope and Brotherly Love these Teachings all Men who are honorable can agree on.

And after you made it clear you want me to only use Grand Lodge Documents than why do you want me to look at Books that are not Grand Lodge Documents.

When Freemasonry points to Heaven in the Rituals it draws from the New Testiment.

Freemasonry states that we HOPE to get to Heaven by Education, Living and THE BLESSINGS OF GOD.

The God in the Ritual of Freemasonry is JEHOVAH. But masons do not have to believe in JEHOVAH.


MIKE
As far as provening the Masonic Brethern of Mine Wrong. First off You have not read those books SO HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THEY EVEN SAY IT OR NOT. You are blindly make accusations without the knowledge to back it up. How can you not see what is wrong with doing this.

I have studied Freemasonry and will contuine to Study Freemaosnry. I know that not all Grand Lodges are the same. Grand Lodges may acknowledge one another but not agree with one another on certain issues. My Grand Lodge has made a Stand on Salvation by Works not getting you into Heaven among other things. My Lodge ends our prays in the name of Jesus Christ as all of the Other Lodges here I have been to do. No one from the Grand Lodge has ever demanded us to stop or even say it was wrong.

Freemasonry is open to all men. No matter color of skin Tennessee does restrict certain religions from joining and restricts a certain age limit and moral living.

 

[O.F.F.]

Jacob, you said:

First off You have not read those books SO HOW DO YOU KNOW IF THEY EVEN SAY IT OR NOT. You are blindly make accusations without the knowledge to back it up. How can you not see what is wrong with doing this.

First of all, this is pretty presumptuous of you! HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT BOOKS I'VE READ OR NOT READ?

Secondly, I have challenged you to read what I HAVE read. Like I told you before, FREEMASONRY: ITS HIDDEN MEANING by George H. Steinmetz, is available online at:

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/steinmetzfr.html

Likewise, Albert Pike's Morals & Dogma is online for your consumption at:

http://users.libero.it/fjit.bvg/apikefr.html

I have it on CD-ROM, so before telling me what I have or haven't read, read them yourself, then see if you can tell me if the claims I present are not accurate. You simply choose to ignore it because you do not want to face the truth about Freemasonry your brethren present.

Thirdly, no one has to read a book, or in your words "watch a movie" for that matter, in its entirety to determine that its content is unbiblical or unsuitable for Chrisitians. All I had to do is read one verse in the Koran to know it's false teaching. It was the verse that said, "Allah is only one God; far be it from His glory that He should have a son."

See Jacob, that ONE verse in the Koran teaches that God has no son, yet the Bible says that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Living God. The god of Islam IS NOT the God of the Bible. How can God have a Son, and NOT have a son at the same time?

Yet, Freemasonry teaches that all gods are one in the same regardless of your religious persuation. I have presented Grand Lodge marterial that teach this fact.

Your ranting about my not having read all the books I quote sounds nothing more than someone who either is not able to deal with the issues, or who is in such a state of denial he doesn't want to take time to deal with the issues. Your statements offers no facts, or reasoned argument.

Therefore, I will no long reply to your posts.

O.F.F.

 

[Jacob Webber]

First Mike according to you they are not Grand Lodge Documents so it should not really matter what they say because it is their opnion not Grand Lodge.

Second I can not get the M&D link to work.

Third it will take time to read the other.

Fourth Freemaosnry says all masons have one Supreme Being. But each Mason Brings that One Supreme Being with Him not one for all but each one. Since a Majority of Masons are Christian than Jesus is the GAOTU.

Last but not lest have you read these Books?

 

[Ben W]

Originally posted by Eladar:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Eladar
Jesus is mentioned in the ceremonies. Lion of the Tribe of Judah, God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinty.

As I said, 'Jesus' is never mentioned. The ceremonies all refer to 'God'. The ceremonies I am refering to are more along the line of burial ceremonies.

Masons can't officially claim that Jesus is the only way to heaven because that would not allow fellowship with people of different religions, but simply 'God' does allow such a fellowship. </font>[/QUOTE]The term tends to be GAOTU which means Great Architect of the Universe which means Jesus in the Trinity, the term was penned by John Calvin and relates to John 1:3-4 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of men".

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, God in Three Persons Blessed Trinity as the old hymn says, that is the best way I can describe the Trinity realising at the same time there is no accurate objective was to describe that, it simply is as it says.

 

[Eladar]

The term tends to be GAOTU which means Great Architect of the Universe which means Jesus in the Trinity, the term was penned by John Calvin and relates to John 1:3-4 "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life and the life was the light of men".

As I said, a term that can be understood to mean Jesus, but it can also be understood to mean someone else. A generic name for a generic God. If Masons really worship Jesus Christ, then they would have no problem mentioning him by name.


As I mentioned earlier they can't. This is because it goes against their belief in being inclusive. In other words, that the 'Great Architect' goes by different names to different people.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Eladar

It all points to Jesus Christ.

Lion of the Tribe of Judah

God in the Threefold aspect of the Trinty

Star represented the place of our Saviors Birth

If you study Freemaosnry you will see it points to Jesus Christ. You do not have to believe in Him to be a Masons but it points two Him.

You will most likely not be satisfied unless Jesus is called by the name Jesus. But Jesus has many names I just mentioned three above.

I also showed Jesus being mentioned by the Name Jesus in Oklahoma as the Foundation of Foundations.

Also the SBC found Jesus mentioned in Freemaosnry as well.

 

[O.F.F.]

To Eladar's point, allow me to share a qoute from "The Church in the Public Square in a Pluralistic Society" by David L. Adams, who is a reverend from the Lutheran Church — Missouri Synod:

I take it as a given that we are all agreed that a Christian who engages in the direct worship of a God other than Yahweh, whether in a private devotions or in a civil religious event, violates the First Commandment. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego understood this clearly (Daniel 3), and I believe that we do also. If any Christian performs such an act in the context of a civil religious event, he is clearly violates the First Commandment.

It is a much more subtle question to ask whether a Christian who worships the true god in the context of those engaged in worshiping other gods also violates the First Commandment. In this respect we often fail to appreciate the full import of the First Commandment by translating the text (Exodus 20:2-4) as, "You shall have no other gods before me." The wording of the Hebrew text is rather more precise. God says that we must not have other gods "before my [i.e. His] face" or "in my [i.e. His] presence." The point here is that Yahweh is not claiming the right to be first in our affections (as "before" can easily be misunderstood to mean), He is prohibiting us from allowing any other god into His presence. Yahweh does not want to be our first god, or to be first in our life; he must be our only god. The First Commandment is a demand for a radical and absolute exclusivity in our relationship with the realm of divine beings...

Today our American cultural conditioning toward tolerance flies in the face of God's demand for a radically exclusive relationship with us whenever that cultural conditioning leads us to tolerate the worship of false gods in the presence of Yahweh. As Americans we may (and do) have to tolerate the worship of other gods within civil society; as Christians we violate the First Commandment any time we tolerate or encourage the worship of other gods in the presence of Yahweh.

The only possible conclusion upon reading the Word of God is that the people of God must not be a party to any activity that encourages or promotes the worship of other gods. Thus it is possible to sin against the First Commandment through the toleration of the worship of other gods in the context of the worship of Yahweh. The most common way in which we violate the First Commandment in this regard is to engage in the worship of Yahweh in the context of the worship of other gods in such a way that the worship of the false god and the worship of Yahweh may be confused or mixed. We recognize that a speaker cannot control the way that a hearer interprets his words. Nonetheless, in situations where it is likely that an audience, by virtue of its religiously diverse composition, may equate or confuse the worship of Yahweh with the worship of another god, the speaker has an obligation to articulate the scandal of particularity with unremitting clarity.

Therefore, "Christian" Masons are guilty of violating the First Commandment everytime they tolerate or encourage the worship of other gods in the presence of Yahweh. The do this as the stand in Lodge praying in Jesus' name, as non-Christian Masons stand next to them praying to false gods.

What's more, "Christian" Masons are guilty of violating the First Commandment everytime they engage in the worship of Jesus Christ in the context of the worship of other gods in such a way that the worship of the false god and the worship of Jesus Christ may be confused or mixed.

Mike Gentry
An Ex-Mason for Jesus

 

[O.F.F.]

To All,

As a follow point to my last paragraph above; the worship of other gods in such a way that the worship of the false god and the worship of Jesus Christ may be confused or mixed is clear demonstrated by definition of the "generic" substitution for any Mason's god under the canopy god, named in Freemasonry as, "The Great Architect of the Universe" (G.A.O.T.U.).

Mike

 

[Bro Tony]

I've been away for a while taking care of my father and pastoring the church. I have only written in a few threads. Thanks to all for your prayers, dad is doing better, but we still have a ways to go.

My input here is this Jacob is saying it all points to Jesus. The names the symbols all point to Jesus. I think this is wishful (hopeful) thinking. I just don't understand the dicodomys continually presented by masons. Let me give you all an example---

"Freemasonry is about Jesus, Christians founded it upon biblical principles, but it is not a religion"

"Freemasonry is inately Christian, but it welcomes all men who believe in a god to its alters"

"Freemasonry is not a religion, but it is able to make men better Christians"

By the way, Gary Leazer, who has been referred to many times in this thread is no authority in my book. He is a professing Christian who has gone off into apostasy by embracing the false teachings of freemasonry. He is dangerous because other men have assumed because Dr. Leazer says that there is nothing wrong with freemasonry, it must be alright. The Bible refers to men like this as false teachers. They are to be exposed and avoided.

I don't expect my input to change anyone's mind, only the Spirit can do that. I just wanted to share my heart.

Bro Tony

 

[Jacob Webber]

(Therefore, "Christian" Masons are guilty of violating the First Commandment everytime they tolerate or encourage the worship of other gods in the presence of Yahweh. The do this as the stand in Lodge praying in Jesus' name, as non-Christian Masons stand next to them praying to false gods.)

Mike
So are you saying we should never say the Pledge of our Flag, Pray at a Baseball game, Sing the Star Spangaled Banner, Pray at a meeting, Pray over a Meal with Friends who may or may not be Christian, Let our childern join Boy Scouts, Pray at High school Events and Pray in Schools.

Because if you have done any of these than you yourself are guilty.

When Jesus prayed in the Temple to God and others there who did not believe on Jesus prayed to God than by what you said above Jesus would have been Guilty of the First Ammendment. Those others being the Priest that put Him on the Cross.

We are to Pray to Jesus only and we can do this in the mist of pagans. Just ask any Missionary. Teh Pagans can pray to any god they want to But they will not have the Peace of Heart that I have praying to Jesus.

 

[Bro Tony]

When Jesus prayed in the Temple to God and others there who did not believe on Jesus prayed to God than by what you said above Jesus would have been Guilty of the First Ammendment. Those others being the Priest that put Him on the Cross.

We are to Pray to Jesus only and we can do this in the mist of pagans. Just ask any Missionary. Teh Pagans can pray to any god they want to But they will not have the Peace of Heart that I have praying to Jesus.

Jesus did this in the Temple, but He never joined Himself to them. In His own words He separated Himself from them, He condemned them, and He called them to repentance. In the lodge you have joined yourself to your "brother masons". You do not condemn their false view of the one true and only God. You do not call them to repent. If you did these things then you would be doing things similar to that which Christ did. He never left people with the false impression that their faulty views of God and salvation were legitamate. That is the danger of the ecumental enviroment of the lodge.

Bro Tony

 

[Jacob Webber]

(You do not condemn their false view of the one true and only God. You do not call them to repent. If you did these things then you would be doing things similar to that which Christ did.)

Bro Tony here is were you are most definetly wrong. I do tell them Christ is the only way and One True God. I do share Salvation thru Jesus Christ to them and will contuine to do so.

Jesus did join Himself to them He was a Jew he joined in the feast and rituals of being a Jew. He was circumsized as a child spoke at the Temple, He ate with tax collectors, whores, theives all diffrent kinds He did join with in feast and Jewish Rituals.

He ate and prayed with the 5000 whom He feed the fish and Bread to and I am sure not all of them believed in Him.

Jesus did not believe as the Pharises did but that did not stop Him from showing them Brotherly Love to them. Even thou He was the Son of God He still was a Jew.

As far as leaving them with a False View of Salvation I think not because I tell everyone wether they are Jewish Masons, Muslim Mason or who ever that Jesus is the only way for Salvation. That no one comes to the Father but thru the Son. That Faith in the Merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (Jesus Christ) is how you get to Heaven. In this I see no flaw.

 

[Bro Tony]

Jacob,

He did not join them in their false understanding of the practice of their religion. He walked and lived as biblical man, when he fed the 5000 He did that in conjunction with teaching them the truth. As He went to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feasts, it was then that He spoke the most loudly against the Pharisee and the perveyers of false religion.

Now to your point, either you or others in the lodge are not telling the truth. I find it very hard to believe that you share your Christian faith within the lodge. Or that you within the practice of the ritual take time to explain that it is all about Jesus. Or that you tell the other masons that do not believe in Jesus, that without Him they are headed to a sinners hell. You may do that outside the confines of the lodge, but I know and you know you cannot do that within the lodge. Jesus shared the truth of the Gospel wherever He went.

Bro Tony

 

[O.F.F.]

Tony,

I can point you to websites where Jacob tries, I think, in subtle ways to "point" Masons to Christ. The problem with most of his attempts is a lack of true evangelism. He never speaks directly about the essence of the gospel. In other cases, he attempt to defend Freemasonry by munipulating Scripture to make his point.

An example can be found at: http://p081.ezboard.com/fmomministryofmasonsfrm7.showMessage?topicID=66.topic, where he tries to defend the bloody oaths of the Masonic Order when he said:

Many Anti-Masonic folk claim we take Bloody Oaths. I disagree as I believe we take OAths to Protect other Masons even at the cost of our own. Because masons were tourtured by the church and reveiling another was almost a death sentence to them. Just as a Marriage Vow "To Love, Honor and Protect even at the cost or your own life". This should beconcider a Bloody Oath if the Masonic Oaths are concidered Bloody.

Either Jacob is not married, or he probably forgot his vows, or was rendered something very different from the standard marriage vows, where in part it states:

...love her, honor her (him), comfort her (him), and keep her (him) for better or worse, in sickness and in health; forsaking all others, be true to her (him) as long as you both shall live?

He goes on to list passages of Scripture he feels support his position relative to those opposed to Freemasonry from a biblical perspective.

Notice how he states, "I believe we take oaths to protect (the lives of) other Masons even at the cost of our own." In other words, he is more concerned about protecting heresy and Masons who hold to it, even if it means his own life. After all, as he indicates in his posts above, he has no problem unitying himself in "Masonic Brotherhood" with pagans.

We are to Pray to Jesus only and we can do this in the mist of pagans.

The question is, does Jacob fully understand the biblical position against philosophies, such as Freemasonry, or does he simply twist God's Word, as does Masonry, to fit their cause?

Mike Gentry
Order of FORMER Freemasons

 

[Jacob Webber]

Bro Tony

Jesus did not join them in the False practice of their religion but He did Pray with them in the Temples and shared knowledge with them there as I can do at the Lodge. I just can not descuss Religion and Politics while the Lodge is open for Business because Business is to be conducted. But afterward during refreshment or the Good of the Order I am Free to Share my View of Christ and how Christ is reprecented in the Ritual.

During the Ritual Work it is work. And Yes Jesus is mentioned in it but not by the name Jesus. to answer your question no I do not take the time to explain to them the parts that point to Jesus. It is a Drama after all. How many Dramas have you been to that stop and explain what is being done I have not been to any. It is after the Drama is over and the Lodge is called to Refreshment or Close that you can explain what it all means becuase there is a set way of doing things.

And to another point Bro Tony at my Lodges Homecoming Last Year Several Masons got up and shared their Testimony about how they came to know Christ as there Savior. Representives from the Grand Lodge were their and did not object in fact they shared theirs as well.

And Also I have heard Grand Lodge representives showing how Jesus is in the Rituals.

(Or that you tell the other masons that do not believe in Jesus, that without Him they are headed to a sinners hell. You may do that outside the confines of the lodge, but I know and you know you cannot do that within the lodge. Jesus shared the truth of the Gospel wherever He went.)

I have told others Masons exactly that Bro Tony, Why it is hard to believe that a Christian will share His Faith with others to you.

And Brother Tony many Churches have started within Masonic Lodges I believe one of the biggest churches in Texas was started within a Masonic Lodge also Many Lodges hold an Easter Service as well.

As far as me knowing that I can not share my Faith in Jesus in an Open Lodge than you are sadly mistaken. I will share the Gospel of Jesus Christ were ever and when ever I am called to do so and no one will stop me. I have been at sevaral Lodge meeting where a Pastor has preached within an open Lodge about the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ in TN this is not a Problem.

But what you are refering to is the rule that Politics and Religion ca not be debated in a Lodge and this is a rule. Because again when it is time for Business it is time for Business not aurguments over which is better Democrat or Republicain, or Methodist or Baptist.

You will never get work done fighting among yourselves. That is a Big problem we Christians have we get so caught up in Secondary Issues such as Evolution, Denomanations, Which day to goto Church on, KJ or NIV Bibles and Etc,Etc. These issues are important but we should not divide over them. We should debate them but not condem our Christian Brothers because we disagree.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Mike
There are many different Marriage Vows one can take. To Pledge that I would Gladly give my life for in order to Protect my Wife's is not wrong. And I have heard this Vow many times but tht may just be TN. We tend to Care alot about our Love ones.

(In other words, he is more concerned about protecting heresy and Masons who hold to it, even if it means his own life. After all, as he indicates in his posts above, he has no problem unitying himself in "Masonic Brotherhood" with pagans.)

In other words Mike YES I would gladly lay down my Life to protect someone instead of turning them into Hate Mongers who would rather Kill the person for being a Mason.I would hope that every Christian would do the same. But than you must but the text you quote in context to the times of which these Oaths represent.

Any Person who was a Mason was condemed of Heresy and in the name of God was burned alive, Beheaded and so on. Wether this person believed in Christ or not did not matter to the Catholic Church at that Time. Either way this man was doomed for being a Mason. Most Masons were Prodestant meaning they wanted to have Freedom of Worship which was condemed by the Catholic Church at that time as well. Historian John Robinson (Who also latter became a Mason after studying it) indicates that Freemasonry had a roll in the Prodestant Movement.

And Mike I am more concerned with Sharing Jesus Christ with other Masons than protecting Freemasonry. There are many tylered Thread that you can not get to were I have been called hate monger and stating Gods Word as fact instead of My Opnion from other Masons who were not Christians. They objected to my Belief that Jesus is the Only way, That God's Word is Infaliable, That the Earth is 6000yrs old. Those Masons being Christian joined with Me in preclaiming the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

As far as the Biblical Verses I used you can find them under OATHS in the Other section of this Board.

quote:
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We are to Pray to Jesus only and we can do this in the mist of pagans.
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(The question is, does Jacob fully understand the biblical position against philosophies, such as Freemasonry, or does he simply twist God's Word, as does Masonry, to fit their cause?)

If we can not Pray to Jesus than who would you have me Pray to Mike because no matter were I am I will only Pray to Jesus. Even if I am surrounded by Muslims I will not waver I will pray to Christ.

Mike do you condem Christian Arabs who pray to Allah as Jesus Christ. Or do they have to specificly say Jesus Christ instead of Allah.

As far as a Biblical Postion against Freemaosnry. I have a hard time finding in the Bible were Christ condemed Brotherly Love in fact He reenforced it and taught it and as I have said to many Masons. He showed the Greatest of Brotherly Love by Dying on the Cross for Our Sins so that if we Believe on Him we will be saved.

And as Freemaosnry States Jesus Christ is the Foundation on which every man should build.

If I have twisted God's Word please point it out Specificly to me.

 

[Bro Tony]

Mike do you condem Christian Arabs who pray to Allah as Jesus Christ. Or do they have to specificly say Jesus Christ instead of Allah.

Jacob,
I am not Mike but I would like to answer this and in doing so restate my major problem with freemasonry. You leave too much to interpretation. Jesus is not who a person interprets Him to be, He is who He is. He is not Allah and Allah is not Christ Jesus. The Bible teaches that there is only ONE name by which men can be saved---Jesus. If a man believes in Allah he is condemned already and he will die in his sins. God is not The Great Archetect of the Universe, which leaves who He is open to anyones interpretation. Jesus came to reveal the Father, we know who He is by His revelation of Himself to us. God is who He is not who we preceive Him to be. And while you may see Jesus in the lodge ritual, a non-believing mason is at liberty to look at the same ritual and not see Him. Biblical Christianity is based in faith in the one true Messiah, Christ Jesus.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

And as Freemaosnry States Jesus Christ is the Foundation on which every man should build.

This is not true. If it was true no man could be a mason if he refused to believe in Jesus Christ. To be a mason a man does not have to believe in Christ nor even know who He is. If Jesus were the foundation of freemasonry--than freemasonry would be the Church. Which it is not. The only body that the Bible teaches that Jesus is the foundation of is the Church.

Bro Tony