Jacob Webber
New Member
I am glad people were lead to Christ it is far more important than the debate between Freemasom Christians and Ephesian 5-11 Christians.
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Freemasonry vs. Christianity
- Thread starter O.F.F.
- Start date
Apparently, RACISM is alive and well pet the following:
Vote keeps Masons apart: White group fails to recognize black
By RICHARD STRADLING, Staff Writer
For the second time in two years, North Carolina's white Masons have decided to continue a split with their black counterparts that dates to the days of segregation.
Delegates to Saturday's annual convention of the Ancient, Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina voted 520 to 459 in favor of a resolution to recognize the state's traditionally black Masonic group. The resolution failed, however, because two-thirds of the vote was required to pass it...
For more information click on the following link:
Masonic Racism in the South in 2004
Vote keeps Masons apart: White group fails to recognize black
By RICHARD STRADLING, Staff Writer
For the second time in two years, North Carolina's white Masons have decided to continue a split with their black counterparts that dates to the days of segregation.
Delegates to Saturday's annual convention of the Ancient, Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina voted 520 to 459 in favor of a resolution to recognize the state's traditionally black Masonic group. The resolution failed, however, because two-thirds of the vote was required to pass it...
For more information click on the following link:
Masonic Racism in the South in 2004
Jacob Webber
New Member
Mike does NC Regular Lodge have Africian Americain Memebers? Second it does show that the Grnad Master of the NC Grand Lodge is not racist and almost half that voted are not racist. If both the GL and PHGL use more or less the same ritual and same values I would not see any reason they should not.
It would be interesting to see why the other 520 members did not vote for the recognizing the other. I am sure some of it was racism but I doubt all of it was some probaly went along to get along and that is a shame. But with the Grand Master trying to join the two than that should show the GL is not racist but that some of the other masons are and others are going along to get along.
Also I would add that as I stated earlier Deleware tried to recognize PH Masonry and PH Masonry voted it down. I am sure it is not a one sided issue. If all masons followed Masonic Teachings they would see everyone as equal as Freemasonry teaches.
But if a majority of masons in one state vote down the issue all you can do if contuine the fight if necessary. But if NC Regular Masonry has Africain Americam members than the issue could be both political and racist.
It would be interesting to see why the other 520 members did not vote for the recognizing the other. I am sure some of it was racism but I doubt all of it was some probaly went along to get along and that is a shame. But with the Grand Master trying to join the two than that should show the GL is not racist but that some of the other masons are and others are going along to get along.
Also I would add that as I stated earlier Deleware tried to recognize PH Masonry and PH Masonry voted it down. I am sure it is not a one sided issue. If all masons followed Masonic Teachings they would see everyone as equal as Freemasonry teaches.
But if a majority of masons in one state vote down the issue all you can do if contuine the fight if necessary. But if NC Regular Masonry has Africain Americam members than the issue could be both political and racist.
RockRambler
New Member
I was a member of a "regular" lodge, AF&AM, in North Carolina and it is overwhemingly racist. Yes, black men can petition AF&AM, but since it only takes one black ball to deny someone membership, guess how many black members there are? In 2002, it was one...and he had transferred from another country. That was for the whole state. In my lodge, everytime the vote on Prince Hall recognition was mentioned, it was greeted by racist comments. In probably 98% of the AF&AM lodges in North Carolina there is no way that a black man is going to escape with no black balls in the box during a membership vote.
Of course, when an organization if bascially a bunch of grown men playing out an "OUR GANG" episode and members of the "I hate girls" club, its not really a big loss to demit from it.
Of course, when an organization if bascially a bunch of grown men playing out an "OUR GANG" episode and members of the "I hate girls" club, its not really a big loss to demit from it.
Jacob Webber
New Member
Rockrambler
Do you try to do anything to change this or did you go along.
The Black ball issue is one I have problems with but it does not just pretain the African Americans. A person may not like another for political or religous reasons and Black Ball them. This is a beef that I have with it and have brought it up that if you Black ball someone you need to give reason as to why you do it. But I might add the WM can overide and put it to a two/thirds vote.
Also I would like to know how many of the churches in that area accpeted Afican Americans do not just blame it on Freemaosnry, The Teaches of Freemasonry are not racist and neither are the teachings of Christ.
I have said and will contuine to say if a man cast a black ball on another man because of his skin shade he is being unmasonic and does not desevre to be a Mason.
Do you try to do anything to change this or did you go along.
The Black ball issue is one I have problems with but it does not just pretain the African Americans. A person may not like another for political or religous reasons and Black Ball them. This is a beef that I have with it and have brought it up that if you Black ball someone you need to give reason as to why you do it. But I might add the WM can overide and put it to a two/thirds vote.
Also I would like to know how many of the churches in that area accpeted Afican Americans do not just blame it on Freemaosnry, The Teaches of Freemasonry are not racist and neither are the teachings of Christ.
I have said and will contuine to say if a man cast a black ball on another man because of his skin shade he is being unmasonic and does not desevre to be a Mason.
RockRambler
New Member
Jacob, I always voted for PH recognition and encouraged PH brethern to petion the "white" lodge. Once I was saved I was more concerned about some of the teaching of Freemasonry and thought it was better to not be affiliated with it.
I go to a Southern Baptist church that has black members and would not have joined if it was part of the same racism that was a part of the AF & AM Masonic Lodge in NC.
On the issue of blackballing, we agree 100%. I used to visit another lodge on a regular basis, and it was common knowledge that they would "blackball" a candidate the first time, to see "how serious" he was.
(I always figured if you put a $100 check with the application, you were serious).
I go to a Southern Baptist church that has black members and would not have joined if it was part of the same racism that was a part of the AF & AM Masonic Lodge in NC.
On the issue of blackballing, we agree 100%. I used to visit another lodge on a regular basis, and it was common knowledge that they would "blackball" a candidate the first time, to see "how serious" he was.
(I always figured if you put a $100 check with the application, you were serious).
Jacob Webber
New Member
(I go to a Southern Baptist church that has black members and would not have joined if it was part of the same racism that was a part of the AF & AM Masonic Lodge in NC.)
I did not ask if it was part of or anything to do with Freemasonry are there churches in your area that have only White members due to racism.
If you fix the problems in the Church and the Community that you will fix the problem of racism in the Lodge.
You see racism is a foreign object in the Lodge not there by Masonic Teachings it is brought in from the outside. You fix the problem coming and on the outside in the Churches and communities you fix the problem of racism on the inside of the Lodge.
I did not ask if it was part of or anything to do with Freemasonry are there churches in your area that have only White members due to racism.
If you fix the problems in the Church and the Community that you will fix the problem of racism in the Lodge.
You see racism is a foreign object in the Lodge not there by Masonic Teachings it is brought in from the outside. You fix the problem coming and on the outside in the Churches and communities you fix the problem of racism on the inside of the Lodge.
In response to Jacob's last comment:
Freemasonry says it "makes good men better." But, God's Word says, no one is good, no NOT ONE. Only Jesus Christ can make us better. Masons south of the Mason Dixon line have yet a lot to learn.
Mike Gentry
Order of FORMER Freemasons
I would like to share, in part, the departing words of a prominent Mason of Canada who was finally fed up with the racism coming from Masons in the southern states of the US.
So Jacob, apparently you cannot "fix the problem of racism inside the Lodge." Here is a Mason, from a jurisdiction in the South, just like yours, where Freemasonry has taught him to NOT recognize Masons of the "Prince Hall" persuasion. Such evil must be fixed on the inside of ones heart by the presence of Jesus Christ.
Freemasonry says it "makes good men better." But, God's Word says, no one is good, no NOT ONE. Only Jesus Christ can make us better. Masons south of the Mason Dixon line have yet a lot to learn.
Mike Gentry
Order of FORMER Freemasons
Jacob Webber
New Member
(So Jacob, apparently you cannot "fix the problem of racism inside the Lodge." Here is a Mason, from a jurisdiction in the South, just like yours, where Freemasonry has taught him to NOT recognize Masons of the "Prince Hall" persuasion. Such evil must be fixed on the inside of ones heart by the presence of Jesus Christ.)
Your right Mike as I stated before you moust fix the problem coming into Freemasonry. Because Freemasonry teaches equality. The notion of racism is brought in from the outside.
Mike does Christianity teach racism of course it does not It is brought in from the outside and must be thrown out. But never the less there are racist Christians. Just as there are Racist Masons.
niether Christianity or Freemaosnry teaches racism but there are those in both who are.
Mike change is in affect in Freemasonry almost half voted to reognize Prince Hall it is encouraging to see.
And we must pray that Jesus turns the racist Heart of a Christian and others to one of Love and equality.
I would also add that before you start to remove the spliter of racism in Freemasonry you remove the plank of Racism in Christianity it is far worse for Christ to be represented by racist than Freemasonry to be represented by Racist.
Your right Mike as I stated before you moust fix the problem coming into Freemasonry. Because Freemasonry teaches equality. The notion of racism is brought in from the outside.
Mike does Christianity teach racism of course it does not It is brought in from the outside and must be thrown out. But never the less there are racist Christians. Just as there are Racist Masons.
niether Christianity or Freemaosnry teaches racism but there are those in both who are.
Mike change is in affect in Freemasonry almost half voted to reognize Prince Hall it is encouraging to see.
And we must pray that Jesus turns the racist Heart of a Christian and others to one of Love and equality.
I would also add that before you start to remove the spliter of racism in Freemasonry you remove the plank of Racism in Christianity it is far worse for Christ to be represented by racist than Freemasonry to be represented by Racist.
RockRambler
New Member
One other point...the resolution that was voted down in North Carolina was practically useless anyway. Even if it had passed, the issue of visitation between lodges would have been left to the LOCAL lodge. Lodges in North Carolina still would have been able to exclude visitation from Prince Hall Masons, and in most parts of North Carolina this would have occurred.
As a business owner with 57 employees, if I am a part of an organization like the Masons which is perceived as racist and sexist...then I am opening myself up to all kinds of lawsuits from disgruntled employees.
As a business owner with 57 employees, if I am a part of an organization like the Masons which is perceived as racist and sexist...then I am opening myself up to all kinds of lawsuits from disgruntled employees.
Jacob Webber
New Member
Rockrambler
Have you ever seen in the Teachings of Freemaosnry that Skin Color is a requirement for joining?
And do you agree that Racism is not a teaching of Freemasonry but of those men who are Racist.
If you proclaim Freemaosnry to be racist because some of its members are racist you in order to be fair will have to apply this to Christianity because many Christians are Racist.
The issue of racism is not in Freemasonry or Christianity. It is brought into it my man. It is the Hearts of Man that must be changed and that is done thru Christ.
Have you ever seen in the Teachings of Freemaosnry that Skin Color is a requirement for joining?
And do you agree that Racism is not a teaching of Freemasonry but of those men who are Racist.
If you proclaim Freemaosnry to be racist because some of its members are racist you in order to be fair will have to apply this to Christianity because many Christians are Racist.
The issue of racism is not in Freemasonry or Christianity. It is brought into it my man. It is the Hearts of Man that must be changed and that is done thru Christ.
RockRambler
New Member
Is racism written down in Freemasonry, No. But I have heard three different worshipful masters, in two different lodges, so in the lodge, during an official meeting, that blacks could not be masons because AF&AM stood for "Ancient,Free,and Accepted Masons", and since blacks were slaves at one time they could not join because they had not always been free.
I know this was bunk. But when Masons hear this in a lodge from the top officer, you see why they start believing it.
That is the type of racism that is perceived in North Carolina within the lodge and by the general public.
Is the 11 o'clock hour on Sunday still the most segregated time in America? No doubt. But at least I've not heard a preacher say a black man can't go to heaven, or deny a black person the right to sit in our church.
I know this was bunk. But when Masons hear this in a lodge from the top officer, you see why they start believing it.
That is the type of racism that is perceived in North Carolina within the lodge and by the general public.
Is the 11 o'clock hour on Sunday still the most segregated time in America? No doubt. But at least I've not heard a preacher say a black man can't go to heaven, or deny a black person the right to sit in our church.
Jacob Webber
New Member
(Is the 11 o'clock hour on Sunday still the most segregated time in America? No doubt. But at least I've not heard a preacher say a black man can't go to heaven, or deny a black person the right to sit in our church.)
I have heard preachers say a Black man can't goto Heaven.
The Mark of Cain or Curse of Ham. Saying the Blacks can not be saved. Which is a bunch of Bull!
Evolutionary Teachings have given such Pastors Ammo saying that The gift of Salvation was only given to Adams Desendants. But that the Blacks, Asians other tahns whites evolved latter after Adam which they can not receive Salvation according to the Evolutionary teachings of this kind.
Before we condem Freemasonry of racism we need to Clean our own House of the same racist problems that Christians have.
Since the Majority of Masons are Christians than if you fix the problem of Rascism in Christianity you will fix the problem of Racism in Freemasonry.
I have heard preachers say a Black man can't goto Heaven.
The Mark of Cain or Curse of Ham. Saying the Blacks can not be saved. Which is a bunch of Bull!
Evolutionary Teachings have given such Pastors Ammo saying that The gift of Salvation was only given to Adams Desendants. But that the Blacks, Asians other tahns whites evolved latter after Adam which they can not receive Salvation according to the Evolutionary teachings of this kind.
Before we condem Freemasonry of racism we need to Clean our own House of the same racist problems that Christians have.
Since the Majority of Masons are Christians than if you fix the problem of Rascism in Christianity you will fix the problem of Racism in Freemasonry.
RockRambler
New Member
I will point out that the three Worship Masters I was talking about were not affiliated with any church. Two of them in fact were often heard in the lodge talking about how they were not as bad as those hypocrites you found in church.
Jacob Webber
New Member
Rambler
Do you think every Freemason is Racist or thinks Blacks can not become a member of Freemasonry?
Do you think every Freemason is Racist or thinks Blacks can not become a member of Freemasonry?
What I did hear that was interesting was that the opposing Prince Hall lodge have granted recognition to the NC group.
I agree that this situation is pretty bad all round, Yet we need to recognise what Racism is all about and where it comes from. Churches are as guilty if not more so than other community groups. Go watch the film "Rosewood" or "Missisipi Burning" or any of the other films about racism, and have a look at what some christians did in the name of God to people that were of a different race or colour. I watched a tv special on the KKK and I was dismayed to see the chap there using the Bible to back up his racism.
Freemasonry is not a religious group but a community group, and it is splintered in that all groups are nothing like the same. there are a number of different "rites" and affiliations with various groups. Attitudes in the community will likely carry over into lodges, in the same way as other groups.
People seem to dislike Jesse Jackson, yet he is a prominent Freemason.
Again not that any of this excuses the North Carolina Grand Lodge, that was a wrong descion for more than one reason. Yet with the recognition going the other way, if they do not reverse there descion, I suspect the Prince Hall group will soon outumber them as I was reading on the Lodge Room forum that people are looking at shifting over.
I agree that this situation is pretty bad all round, Yet we need to recognise what Racism is all about and where it comes from. Churches are as guilty if not more so than other community groups. Go watch the film "Rosewood" or "Missisipi Burning" or any of the other films about racism, and have a look at what some christians did in the name of God to people that were of a different race or colour. I watched a tv special on the KKK and I was dismayed to see the chap there using the Bible to back up his racism.
Freemasonry is not a religious group but a community group, and it is splintered in that all groups are nothing like the same. there are a number of different "rites" and affiliations with various groups. Attitudes in the community will likely carry over into lodges, in the same way as other groups.
People seem to dislike Jesse Jackson, yet he is a prominent Freemason.
Again not that any of this excuses the North Carolina Grand Lodge, that was a wrong descion for more than one reason. Yet with the recognition going the other way, if they do not reverse there descion, I suspect the Prince Hall group will soon outumber them as I was reading on the Lodge Room forum that people are looking at shifting over.
Jacob Webber
New Member
My Pastor just addressed part of this issue today with Christians just sitting back and not doing nothing when the African American Rights movement was going on we could have done what was right but we did not. Christians have set back to long and stayed out of the issue because of political back lash and possible tax exeption going away.
My Pastor said He and our Church would preach the Truth tax exept or not that we did not care because God is bigger than the Government and if we have to pay taxes than He will provide.
My Pastor said He and our Church would preach the Truth tax exept or not that we did not care because God is bigger than the Government and if we have to pay taxes than He will provide.
RockRambler
New Member
"Do you think every Freemason is Racist or thinks Blacks can not become a member of Freemasonry? "
No and No...I have not claimed otherwise.
No and No...I have not claimed otherwise.
Jacob Webber
New Member
So Rock you would agree that thou some Freemaosns are racist as are some christians. the teachings of Freemasonry are not?