Freemasonry vs. Christianity

[Helen]

Originally posted by TheWorm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />You don't even have the decency to apology and ask for forgiveness.

Apparently this board is willing to give the benefit of the doubt as long as I stay on topic. For certain, they have no desire to allow ad hominem debates. Were I to engage you in this, my posts would be deleted. As I already stated, the entire exercise was not an attempt to deceive anyone but you, and even then only as a parody of the same behavior (posting others' material without citation, by permission) on your part (for which I notice you never apologized either). I notice you still continue the practice even now, with the use of Larry Kunk's material above, without reference.

I have not done one single thing you have not done. Since the playing floor appears to have evened, may I suggest if you have a response to what I posted on topic, then post a response. If not, then find some other approach than character assassination.

The Worm

(P.S.--and you can leave the "Rev" out of this. I may quote a lot of the material he does and use the same arguments, but I do my own stuff.) </font>[/QUOTE]This is GINA L. , not Helen. (I'm at her house, she's signed in and I'm not so this is easier)

Give you the benefit of the doubt TW? What doubt? You lied and it was proven, and you bragged about your deceit on other boards.
Have you no sense of decency, no sense of shame that you would behave so horridly and then continue to speak as if we should trust and believe you after all that?
I did request that you be permitted to post because as I've stated before, you've done more to prove Masonry as deceitful when you used deceit in an attempt to prove it not deceitful.
But, enough is enough. Hopefully one day you'll look back on this situation and thank me for stopping it!
Please TW, try to understand that goodness begets goodness. The fact that you felt you have to be deceitful to prove what you thought was good is a BIG sign that what you're trying to prove is anything but good.
Gina

 

[O.F.F.]

Bravo Gina,

bravo!

Among Masons he (Wayne/Worm) he's a hero, but God knows the truth about his heart and character. Like Billy Graham once said:

Your Reputation is what men think you are; you Character is what God knows your are.

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

Mike
Why do you take pleasure in the downfall of others. How does this help The Worm to try to do better were have you encouraged The Worm and lifted Her in your prays.

(Your Reputation is what men think you are; you Character is what God knows your are)

Mike I know alot of people do not think highly of you. But how do you think God feels about you when you tell one of His childern that you feel they do not belong to Him. You do not know the relationship between these people and God.

 

[O.F.F.]

Corey (Jacob),

You know a lot of Masons who do not think highly of me, that is understandable, because I lead a ministry opposed to their teachings. Believe it or not, I try to pray for Mason’s everyday. Especially, for those like yourself who seem to be sincere about their faith in Christ, but are sincerely wrong about the teachings of Freemasonry.

Wayne and his wife brought this upon themselves. The Bible says that pride comes before the fall (Proverbs 16:18), and Wayne let his pride and arrogance get the best of him. As a pastor, he tries to teach Christians that Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity, and the Bible says that teachers are held to a higher standard and will be judged by God more strictly (James 3:1). The “Reverend” Wayne has placed himself in a position that makes his apostasy clear to Christians, not only here, but on other boards he visits as well. The Bible says that God cannot be mocked, you will reap what you sow (Galatians 6:7).

Wayne tried to confuse saints about my position regarding the “Christian” Mason. Yet, he failed to acknowledge the most important point I made that is; only God knows those who are truly His. I cannot say who is sealed by the Holy Spirit and who is not, because I don’t know. What I can say is this, after being presented the facts and being informed of the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry, any professing “Christian” Mason who subsequently remains in the Lodge stands in deliberate rebellion against God.

You claim that I have not addressed what you have presented as evidence of what you THINK is proof that Freemasonry is Christian. I have addressed it here and on other boards you frequent. More importantly, your position has been addressed by the testimony of a FORMER Mason who was a member of your very own jurisdiction; made on the same discussion boards. The problem is you simply refuse to accept the biblical position against Masonic teachings and choose to impose a Christian interpretation of what you see in Freemasonry in order to soothe your mind and conscience of your own rebellion against God.

As for your claim that my FORMER lodge taught me that the All-Seeing Eye is the God of the Bible or Yahweh, nothing could be further from the truth. All they did was use a passage of Scripture (Proverbs 15:3) to present the god of Freemasonry – a generic representation of any Mason’s concept of God whether they are Christian or not. It was a trick by Satan that fooled me at the time, but apparently continues to fool you today.

What you think is of God is a counterfeit gospel. When you honestly consider the vast preponderance of evidence that proves Freemasonry is not of God, you will repent, resigned from the Lodge and renounce its teachings. Until then, I will pray that you stop rebelling against God and deceiving yourself in this matter.

Sincerely in Christ,

Mike Gentry

 

[Jacob Webber]

Mike
You have not address my post you simply blew them off. I gave you clear refrences to Christ from Freemasonry. And you still seem to want to over look it for some reason. I gave Masonic Text that supports it.

I am not saying Freemasonry is Christian. It is not a Christian Frat althou it was a Christian only Frat to begin with do your reseach and you will see.

I can give you countless refrences to Christ and to YHWH. You simply will not accept them because it does not suit your cause.

The God in the Ritual is YHWH(FreeMasonry)(Christianty)

God in the Threefold aspect of the Trinity in Freemasonry(FreeMasonry)(Christianty)

Lion of the Tribe of Judah is in Freemasonry(FreeMasonry)(Christianty)

The Star represents the Star that showed the place of our Saviors Birth (FreeMasonry)(Christianty)

Knights Templar completes the Blue Lodge you must be a Christian and profess a Faith in Jesus Christ to Jion.

It is said that the Blue Lodge is like a half sung song with out the York Rite to complete it. If the York Rite Completes the Blue Lodge than it most certainly has Christian Teaches in it. And the symbols there in point to God and the Messiah.

 

[Jacob Webber]

(What you think is of God is a counterfeit gospel. When you honestly consider the vast preponderance of evidence that proves Freemasonry is not of God, you will repent, resigned from the Lodge and renounce its teachings. Until then, I will pray that you stop rebelling against God and deceiving yourself in this matter.)

First lets look at a few things Freemaosnry teaches. Charity, Brotherly Love, YHWH created the Universe and the Earth in 6 days, Jesus Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah this are just a few I have seen in Freemasonry that clearly point to Christ. Yet you will refuse them once again.

Post the incompatablities of Freemaosnry for us again.

 

[Gina B]

Jacob, you said

Mike
Why do you take pleasure in the downfall of others. How does this help The Worm to try to do better were have you encouraged The Worm and lifted Her in your prays.

(Your Reputation is what men think you are; you Character is what God knows your are)

Mike I know alot of people do not think highly of you. But how do you think God feels about you when you tell one of His childern that you feel they do not belong to Him. You do not know the relationship between these people and God.

There is rejoicing when light overcomes darkness. TW was spreading untruth, and continued the lie even after it was revealed, until it was literally impossible to deny it any longer. At that point he/she was not repentant of this wickedness, but reveled in the deceit and cunning used to give others the runaround.
Yes, I am pleased that the truth was revealed to us, and that untruth will always be overcome at some point in time.
While we can and should pray for our enemies, we should not tolerate these wolves within the flock.
Is TW a Christian? True, it is only 100% known between him/her and God, but that is no reason accept one into the fold and allow them free reign when their fruits show the opposite. We are to protect one another from falseness. Are lies and deceit the fruits of believers? We all may sin, but the continued and unrepentant lies and deceit in this case were very untypical of one who truly wishes to love Christ with us, and further the spiritual well being of the body of believers.
You may choose to disagree with what I have stated, but please ponder it first and compare it's truth with scripture before making your final decision on how you will receive it.
Gina

 

[Bro Tony]

I must agree with Gina here. I have noticed in the different forums particularly on this issue and the issue of Bible versions that people will not call into accountablity those who agree with them on their pet issues. If someone is wrong in their actions, if they are being deceitful, though they agree with me on an issue, they need to be brought to a place of correction. As a matter of fact, when that kind of correction happens from someone in the same camp, it actually adds credibility to the people dealing with the issue.

In other words just because someone agrees with me concerning the issue of freemasonry, that does not give them the right to be deceitful. And if I know them to be such, I should be the first to lovingly bring them to accountability.

Bro Tony

 

[Jacob Webber]

Gina, Bro Tony

Do you think Christ rejoices when one of His Childern stumble. Does Christ applauded at this stumbling. Of course not Christ offers encouragement not demeaning a person. Encouraging each other is what we need to do, we can point out our faults but do not take pleasure in ones faults being pointed out.

Mike has called me a few things and yet you do not point them out to him. I have and have presented that I wish Him to be a good Christian and lead others to Christ. I do not take pleasure in Mike telling lies or when he gets caught in them or any other act. To be repentive is to change your actions. The Worm has acknoledge what happened and why she do it. I do not know if sh agreed it was right or wrong. But Mike has done the same thing on other boards and yet contuines to lie about Freemasonry.

I know for fact that Christ is mentioned in Freemasonry. I have presented it as such.

 

[Gina B]

Mr. Webber, I really struggle with your attempts to present TW as a Christian. He/she did not present him/herself as such.
Perhaps you missed his/her own admission and gloating elsewhere about his/her transgressions.
If Mike lies and deceives that is also not good, but so far what I've seen is Mike presenting the truth of the Bible and the falseness that FreeMasonry can twist into it.
Christ is mentioned in a number of cults and false religions. Mormonism gives Christ an important role in our lives, and claims to be a very Christ oriented religion. Is it? No. Example upon example of such is in existance.
Yes, TW has acknowledged his/her deceit and lies, but has made excuses for them, gloated about them, attempted to make it look as if the moderators of this board were in agreement with her actions, and so on.
If you know of Mike also behaving in such fashion, point it out, give specific examples and links that TRULY show it to be the case, and confront him. You have that as an obligation.

Mr. Webber, the issue here was not simply a problem with expressing belief or unbelief in Freemasonry. As you can see, you and others have been allowed to freely post your pro Masonic views and disagreements with others on the subject without being "subject" to editing or banning. I'm sure you can see the point being made here.

Anyhow, let's please get back to the topic. It probably isn't very proper to continue to discuss a person when they do not have the benefit of speaking for themselves in response.

Gina

 

[Jacob Webber]

Gina
First I am not trying to present TW as a Christian. That is between her and God. I am all for contuining the debate but Mike keeps stepping in calling TW a Liar and personally attacking without addressing the issues and getting the topic off.

Let us contuine with the topic.

I will make the following statement you tell me if it is true.

I have a clean spottless White Shirt this Shirt was given to me to remind. That like my shirt I must be spotless and with out sin to Enter Heaven.

Is the above statement True or False

 

[Gina B]

The above statement is false.
You must be PRESENTED spotless and without sin to the Father, by the Son, to enter into eternal life. None of us are spotless and with out sin except that we be presented as such through through through the Son.
I am not aware of qualifications that would allow one entry into heaven. I'd assume that if Satan can enter God's presence and converse with him, anything's possible. I don't know how those things work. If you do please enlighten me.
Gina

 

[Jacob Webber]

Gina
The above statement says you must be without sin to Enter Heaven that is not a false Statement. Christ Cleanses us of Our sin and makes us pure before God.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

Because of sin we can not enter Heaven until we are made perfect by the Blood of Christ.

 

[O.F.F.]

Jacob,

I would like to expand upon the truth that Gina has stated more succinctly. However, if you are going to get back on topic, than call it what it is. It is not a “shirt,” it is an “apron.” A Masonic Apron, or Badge of a Mason. That apron reminds ALL Masons, whether they are Christians or not, that it is NOT Jesus and His imputed righteousness that gets one to heaven; it is ones own personal righteousness. Jacob, how “spotless” does a pagan have to be to enter the kingdom of God?

Freemasonry declares that Jesus is not the only way to salvation when it teaches that what is essentially necessary to enter heaven is purity of life and conduct, which applies to all Masons – believers in Christ and non-believers too. The “white shirt” Jacob is referring to and its Masonic meaning is explained as follows:

The Lamb has, in all ages, been deemed an emblem of innocence. He therefore who wears the lambskin as the badge of a Mason is continually reminded of the purity of life and conduct which is so essentially necessary to his gaining admission in to the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Masonic Manual, 1983, p. 20, Grand Lodge of Georgia

Jacob can find similar language in his ritual or Tennessee Craftsman or Masonic Textbook.

How does a Mason go about living a life of purity and becoming righteous? The symbolic teaching of the Rough and Perfect Ashlar addresses how a Mason may become perfect. Notice that Freemasonry NEVER mentions faith in Jesus Christ as being a factor.

The Rough Ashlar is a stone as taken from the quarry in its rude and natural state; the Perfect Ashlar is a stone made ready by the hands of the workmen to be adjusted by the tools of a Fellow Craft;. . .

By the Rough Ashlar we are reminded of our rude and imperfect state by nature; by the Perfect Ashlar, that state of perfection at which we hope to arrive by a virtuous education, or own endeavors and the blessings of God; . . . Indiana Monitor and Freemason’s Guide, 1993, pp. 66-67.

Jacob can find similar language in his ritual or Tennessee Craftsman or Masonic Textbook.

The Grand Lodge of California provides materials for those who coach new initiates which explains this teaching a little further:

ROUGH ASHLAR, a stone from the quarry before squaring, a symbol of untutored man. Perfect ashlar, a stone squared and smooth, symbol of enlightened manhood. Perfection is here attained by a process of taking away; no stroke of gavel or chisel can add anything to a rough ashlar; it may only remove. Perfection, then, is already within.

In the Great Light we read: "The kingdom of heaven is within you." All that is required is to remove the roughness, the excrescences, "divesting our hearts and consciences of the vices and superfluities of life" to show forth the perfect man and Mason and to find the kingdom within. Handbook for Candidates Coaches, Committee on Ritual, Grand Lodge of California, P. 16.

The Legend of the Third Degree also teaches salvation through personal righteousness. All Grand Lodges lift up Hiram Abiff as the Masonic savior, but they do not use the word savior in the ritual, or monitors. Yet the teaching of ritual is easily understood:

Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Masonic Ritual Similar to p. 152, Kentucky Monitor

Jacob can find similar language in his ritual or Tennessee Craftsman or Masonic Textbook.

Hiram is, in effect, a savior according to the Masonic concept of the word. Notice here that Masons are supposed to imitate Hiram in order that they may get into heaven. They are to imitate his virtuous life and righteousness, essentially, so that they may earn their own salvation. Again, this applies to ALL MASONS regardless of their religious persuasion. Freemasonry has substituted imitation for faith and Hiram for Jesus. According the Masonic concept, a savior is a way shower, or example.

Therefore Masonry teaches that redemption and salvation are both the power and the responsibility of the individual Mason. Saviors like Hiram Abiff can and do show the way, but men must always follow and demonstrate, each for himself, his power to save himself, to build his own spiritual fabric in his own time and way. Every man in essence is his own savior and redeemer; for if he does not save himself, he will not be saved. The reader who succeeds in getting back to the real teachings of the masters, including Jesus of Nazareth, will find unanimity of thinking on this matter. The Meaning of Masonry, Lynn Perkins, page 95

Now I ask Jacob to defend his position based upon the points made above. If he can refute them, he should be able to do so by providing a variety of Masonic sources that support the biblical position on salvation, which is that ONLY Jesus Christ and His imputed righteousness get us to heaven. I have shown, through a number of sources, that this “spotlessness” according to Freemasonry is not the righteousness of God found only in Christ Jesus, but rather the “righteousness” of Man, which God calls filthy rages (Isaiah 64:6).

Mike Gentry
Order of FORMER Freemasons

[ August 24, 2004, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: O.F.F. ]

 

[Jacob Webber]

(That apron reminds ALL Masons, whether they are Christians or not, that it is NOT Jesus and His imputed righteousness that gets one to heaven; it is ones own personal righteousness. Jacob, how “spotless” does a pagan have to be to enter the kingdom of God?)

Not True it is a simple statement that you must be without sin to enter Heaven. And as the Lamb Skin states there must be no sin. Latter on you find that Faith in the Merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah(Jesus Christ) refrence Masonic Bible

(In the Great Light we read: "The kingdom of heaven is within you." All that is required is to remove the roughness, the excrescences, "divesting our hearts and consciences of the vices and superfluities of life" to show forth the perfect man and Mason and to find the kingdom within. Handbook for Candidates Coaches, Committee on Ritual, Grand Lodge of California, P. 16.)


Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Great Light is the Holy Bible from which the statement comes who do you think it is talking about.


(Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides. Masonic Ritual Similar to p. 152, Kentucky Monitor)

You left out part of it Mike the part about the Lion. And Hiram is not the Savior of Freemaosnry He is a man who is dead


(The Meaning of Masonry, Lynn Perkins, page 95)

As far as this I have never read it but I am sure there is more than one paragraph in 95 pages have you read it Mike.

Jesus Christ is the Lord and Savior (Knights Templar) York Rite Freemasonry

 

[O.F.F.]

To his credit, it appears that Jacob is on board with the biblical path to salvation, per his second-to-the-last post. However, he is here trying to defend the Masonic path to salvation, and has yet to provide a variety of Grand Lodge Masonic references to prove his point. Why not? Because he cannot; they don't exist.

What I have presented demonstrates the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry on the most important matter to Man's existence -- the salvation of his soul.

Mike Gentry

 

[Bro Tony]

Jacob,

I must answer your inquiry. I know you are back on topic so I will answer quickly and not bring it up again.

It brings me no joy to see anyone in sin. That being said one thing I cannot tolerate is a liar. The person to which you have referred was found to be a liar, which is an abomination to the Lord. He/she could have come here like you have and presented their case and we could have dealt with it and gone on, but he/she decided to deceive. And when found out refused to confess the sin and repent.

As far as what Mike has posted to the issue of freemasonry. You see it as a lie because he disagrees with you. I disagree with you also, but I have not lied to you. You have disagreed with me, and as far as I know you have not lied to me. You have been truthful as to your beliefs. I do not call you a liar, but I do genuinely believe you are following the lie of freemasonry. There is no reason for a man to be in freemasonry if he is fully serving the Lord in His Church.

We disagree and it has become apparent that your mind cannot be changed and so we go in circles. We clearly have two different views of what is and what is not compadible with Christianity. You will be in my prayers for the day to come when you will leave the lodge.

Bro Tony

 

[Bro Tony]

Oh By The Way,

Thank you all for praying for my family and me as my father had his stroke. Things are some better, but we are putting in a lot of hours caring for him. God is good and we are seeing improvement everyday.

Bro Tony

 

[Jacob Webber]

Mike
Goto the TN GrandLodge Home page goto the FAQ and there is a statement that Clearly says Freemaosnry can not get you into Heaven. That is a Grand Lodge Statement. That should be sufficent for you. Below is a quote from the Grand Lodge of TN

(39. Do Masons believe that by doing good works they can gain admittance to heaven?


No. The admittance into heaven falls in the realm of the spiritual, not the fraternal.)


The refrences earlier concerning Lion of the Tribe of Judah comes from a Masonic Bible.


Bro Tony
I am glad you family is doing better we will contuine to pray for them.

 

[Jacob Webber]

From the Knights Templar Website:

Christmas
Every Commandery is encouraged to hold a Public Christmas Observance in December. This is a joyous occasion to celebrate the birth of the Savior of Mankind. This service may be held on any day of the week and need not be at the time of meeting of the Commandery.


Concerning Easter
(Easter is a hallowed day in the Templar calendar. Marking as it does the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Easter represents the summit of all hopes of our Christian Faith. The Grand Encampment especially encourages every Sir Knight to attend the church of his choice on that great day in celebrating the great victory of Christ over death.

The official Easter Sunrise Service sponsored by the Grand Encampment is held each year on the steps of the George Washington National Masonic Memorial in Alexandria, VA. The public is most welcome. The starting time is 7:00 a.m. when the Sir Knights in full Templar uniform march up the hill to the strains of "Onward Christian Soldiers".)