Freemasonry

[Eladar]

Why is the view of the Knights Templar important? Any 'Christian' organization that would kill others in the name of God has already demonstrated itself to be of Satan.

 

[Marcia]

The Knight Templar is a patchwork of different groups and organizations that claim different things. Their history and beliefs are very murky, like the Rosicrucians and the Order of the GOlden Dawn (both very occultic). I know that at least several occult claims are made for the Knights Templar. I alwyays knew of them as an occult organization. As I said, the occult likes to take things that seem Biblical or Christian and use them. I quoted from the Bible when I was an astrologer!

And who cares what the Knights Templar think? I go to the Bible.

 

[Jacob Webber]

Knights Templar were warrior monks that tried to protect the Holy Land and Pilgrams going to the Holy Land they were first know as the Poor Knights of Christ I believe. Knights Templar believes in the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ and teaches this as well. Their beliefs was that they started out Catholic than the Kibg of France turned the Pope who was from France against them and said they commited Hersey un tourture.

(Any 'Christian' organization that would kill others in the name of God has already demonstrated itself to be of Satan.)

You have probaly just called every denomination in America to be of Satan. Native Americain ran off because they were consider savage. The black salves were consider a lesser people because some preachers had thought that being black was the mark of cain. Which is totaly no biblical. All men are equal.


(And who cares what the Knights Templar think? I go to the Bible.)

This is were they go. They teach Salvation of Jesus Christ they are Masonic you say Freemasonry does not mention Christ but the Knights Templar open and end Prayer in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eladar]

I doubt that I just called every Christian denomination of Satan. I am not aware of the fact that every denomination's official position was ever one of death.

I am not trying to say that there is any Christian organization that doesn't have wolves in sheep's clothing within it. It is just when its official policy is so diametrically opposed to how the Bible says Christians are to live, it should be easy enough to discern who the organization is actually following.

 

[Marcia]

I agree with Eladar.

Groups that quote part of the Bible, say they are not religious but then spout religious, pious language, mention God's judgement, have Christless prayers,but then avoid talking about salvation through Christ (or have the Jacob's Ladder thing)are suspect and Christians should not align themselves with these groups.

I think we are just talking in circles now.

 

[frewtloop]

It is just when its official policy is so diametrically opposed to how the Bible says Christians are to live, it should be easy enough to discern who the organization is actually following.

Let's see now, "official" policy, as I recall, is an emphasis on "brotherly love, relief, and truth." There are four cardinal virtues of temperance, fortitude, prudence, and justice. Three pillars of the temple are wisdom, strength, and beauty.

"Because," the York rite says, it is necessary that there should be Wisdom to conceive, Strength to support, and Beauty to adorn, all great and important undertakings." "Know ye not," says the Apostle Paul, "that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man desecrate the temple of God, him shall God destroy, for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (Pike, Morals and Dogma, p. 7)

"Diametrically opposed?" Would you care to show me how St. Paul's words are diametrically opposed to Christianity? This is, after all, a part of a work that you guys have tried to portray as some kind of masonic authority. I daresay the case was overstated, as D28guy had the info from the cited website anyway. The assertion was:

At the time his title was the Grand commander of the Supreme Council, of the Scottish Rite in Washington D.C.

Well, that is partially so. Commander, Supreme Council, Scottish Rite, Southern Jurisdiction is the accurate title. Not only was his title overstated, but the supposed authority of the book was as well:

most masons have never read it, let alone understood it. If they did understand it, there's a good possibility they would leave the craft. It deals with the occult origins of the symbols, initiations, and rituals of Freemasonry. It is also a handbook for degree initiation, as it details them all up to the 33rd degree

Most Masons have never read it because most Masons find it inapplicable to them. Only those who go beyond the first three degrees would truly find it worth their while, as most of the book concerns degrees beyond that. Besides that, Pike was so deeply into a lot of information that even now, most Masons simply find irrelevant, over their head, or simply not worth their time. That's not to knock Pike, or his work either, for that matter, he was certainly a most remarkable man. But to suggest that this was some sort of "handbook" is a misrepresentation. I have talked with Masons from many jurisdictions, but I have not met a Mason yet who can say this has ever been any kind of required reading in their jurisdiction. Several lodges have put it on suggested reading lists, but that's about the extent of its "authority." It is actually more of a favorite of antimasons than it ever has been of Masons, simply because of their misreads and misinterpretations of it, and the vulnerability it seems to have built into it that lends it to selective proof-texting. But the finer points of M&D all too often go ignored:

The Holy Bible, Square, and Compasses, are not only styled the Great Lights in Masonry, but they are also technically called the Furniture of the Lodge; and, as you have seen, it is held that there is no Lodge without them. This has sometimes been made a pretext for excluding Jews from our Lodges, because they cannot regard the New Testament as a holy book. The Bible is an indispensable part of the furniture of a Christian Lodge , only because it is the sacred book of the Christian religion. The Hebrew Pentateuch in a Hebrew Lodge, and the Koran in a Mohammedan one, belong on the Altar; and one of these, and the Square and Compass, properly understood, are the Great Lights by which a Mason must walk and work.

The obligation of the candidate is always to be taken on the sacred book or books of his religion, that he may deem it more solemn and binding; and therefore it was that you were asked of what religion you were. We have no other concern with your religious creed.

Detractors will tell you there is no such thing as a "Christian lodge." Masons will tell you that in this country, most Masons are Christian. And Pike seems not to have had any problem calling it by that name. Pike also spoke of a "masonic decalogue," which I have seen nowhere else but in Morals and Dogma:

Masonry has its decalogue, which is a law to its Initiates. These are its Ten Commandments:

I. God is the Eternal, Omnipotent, Immutable WISDOM and Supreme INTELLIGENCE and Exhaustless Love.
Thou shalt adore, revere, and love Him !
Thou shalt honour Him by practising the virtues!

II. Thy religion shall be, to do good because it is a pleasure to thee, and not merely because it is a duty.
That thou mayest become the friend of the wise man, thou shalt obey his precepts !
Thy soul is immortal ! Thou shalt do nothing to degrade it !

III. Thou shalt unceasingly war against vice!
Thou shalt not do unto others that which thou wouldst not wish them to do unto thee !
Thou shalt be submissive to thy fortunes, and keep burning the light of wisdom !

IV. Thou shalt honour thy parents !
Thou shalt pay respect and homage to the aged!
Thou shalt instruct the young!
Thou shalt protect and defend infancy and innocence !

V. Thou shalt cherish thy wife and thy children!
Thou shalt love thy country, and obey its laws!

VI. Thy friend shall be to thee a second self !
Misfortune shall not estrange thee from him !
Thou shalt do for his memory whatever thou wouldst do for him, if he were living!

VII. Thou shalt avoid and flee from insincere friendships !
Thou shalt in everything refrain from excess.
Thou shalt fear to be the cause of a stain on thy memory!

VIII. Thou shalt allow no passions to become thy master !
Thou shalt make the passions of others profitable lessons to thyself!
Thou shalt be indulgent to error !

IX. Thou shalt hear much: Thou shalt speak little: Thou shalt act well !
Thou shalt forget injuries!
Thou shalt render good for evil !
Thou shalt not misuse either thy strength or thy superiority !

X. Thou shalt study to know men; that thereby thou mayest learn to know thyself !
Thou shalt ever seek after virtue !
Thou shalt be just!
Thou shalt avoid idleness !

But the great commandment of Masonry is this: "A new commandment give I unto you: that ye love one another! He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, remaineth still in the darkness."

Such are the moral duties of a Mason.(M&D, p. 17-18)

Okay, so he only missed by about 30 or so when he counted. But you'll have to show me the ones that are "diametrically opposed."

TW

 

[Jacob Webber]

Eladar
I know you did not mean that all Christian Org are of Satan. I was stating that in each denomination in Christianty has had someone in its mist that has show haterd toward others.


Not sure why but as I stated before Christ is mention in the Lodge. The prays are to God, Christ is God. Like I stated before what specific name do we have to go by which name Given to our Savior do be have to use. Christ is God so what is wrong with calling Him God. I do not understand.

(have Christless prayers,but then avoid talking about salvation through Christ)

Again Knights Templar a Masonic body Opens and End in the name of Jesus Christ. And I am able to witness and talk about Christ saving Grace all I want it is only during business that we are told not to not sure why this is hard to except Just as you goto work you can not talk about religion or politics all the time you will not get anything done and will go out of business.

 

[Marcia]

Worm, you say you find Pike "remarkable" and that you do not want to knock him. As I said earlier, when I was reading through Morals and Dogma, I felt such an oppression because I was encountering the occult philosophies from which God had delivered me through Christ. This is from a Masonic site:

IT IS WELL known to all students of Masonry that the
degrees of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry for the
Southern Jurisdiction of the United States are, more or less,
tinctured with the occult doctrines of Jewish Cabala and the
Hermetic and Rosicrucian teachings, to say nothing of the
principles of Neo-Platonism and other mystical schools of
philosophy. The Rite ascribes this, to some extent, to its old
French rituals, but more particularly to the genius of General
Albert Pike, who was a deep student of the Cabala, and well
versed in the religious and philosophical systems of the
Orient. The Vedas and the Zend-Avesta were open books to
him, and not the "iron-bound, melancholy volumes of the
Magi." He was the reviser and transformer of the obscure
old French rituals, which have come down to us from the
Rite of Perfection and other Continental sources. In many
instances be rewrote them. For all of them he prepared
lectures which are distinguished for deep scholarship and
beauty of expression.

Also, on the same page:

There are over thirty-eight Masonic
manuscripts by Albert Pike in the library of the Supreme
Council under lock and key, of course, and highly prized.
Albert Pike's inquiry into the origins of Masonry is most
interesting to the student of occultism, Neoplatonism, the
Cabala, and Rosicrucianism. There is in the possession of
the Supreme Council some interesting correspondence
between General Pike and the heads of Rosicrucian
movement in this country and England.

IT IS INTERESTING to note that Pike was Chief Adept and
Archimagus of the Societas Rosicruciana of America, and
wrote a ritual for the Order. He eventually withdrew from the
organization, however, presumably for lack of time to give to
its work. This ritual not long ago came into the possession of
the library of the Supreme Council. The manuscript is
entitled: Societas Rosicruciana. Rerum publicarum unitarum
Americae. Regulations and Ritual. It is a volume of 114
pages, sixty-three pages of which are in Pike's hand, and
the others In the handwriting of William Morton Ireland, 33d,
at one time Secretary-General of the Supreme Council,
Southern jurisdiction. At the end of the list of regulations is
the following: "In Supreme College, May 29, 1880. The
foregoing Regulae are adopted, Albert Pike, IX, Chief Adept
and Archimagus; William Morton Ireland, IX, Magus and
Junior Substitute."

From Albert Pike Mystic

The page goes on to talk about the Cabbala (or Kabbalah), a mystical occult and Gnostic version of Judaism wherein one believes that the Torah contained hidden secret meanings. The Kabbalah, which was taught by the same organization where I took some astrology, psychic development, and past life regression classes and then later first taught astrology, and where I was resident astrologer, is the basis for Western esoteric Occult practices.

As I said earlier, like many occutlists, Pike quoted from the Bible and tried to blend esoterica with what he saw as Christianity (though without the belief in Christ as Savior). This is similar to what were known as the "Christian Gnostics" in the early church. They were a threat to the early church because they were trying to import gnostic beliefs via a syncreticism of gnosticism and Christianity. This is how many occultists were when Pike lived.

This quote from Pike (on another Masonic site):

The Hermaphroditic figure is the Symbol of the double
nature anciently assigned to the Deity, as Generator
and Producer, as BRAHM and MAYA among the Aryans,
Osiris and Isis among the Egyptians. As the Sun was
male, so the Moon was female; and Isis was both the
sister and the wife of Osiris. The Compass, therefore,
is the Hermetic Symbol of the Creative Deity, and the
Square of the productive Earth or Universe.

From the Heavens come the spiritual and immortal
portion of man; from the Earth his material and mortal
portion. The Hebrew Genesis says that YEHOUAH formed
man of the dust of the Earth, and breathed into his
nostrils the breath of life. Through the seven
planetary spheres, represented by the Mystic Ladder of
the Mithriac Initiations, and it by that which Jacob
saw in his dream (not with three, but with seven
steps), the Souls, emanating from the Deity, descended,
to be united to their human bodies; and through those
seven spheres they must re-ascend, to return to their
origin and home in the bosom of the Deity.

The COMPASS, therefore, as the Symbol of the Heavens,
represents the spiritual, intellectual, and moral
portion of this double nature of humanity; and the
SQUARE, as the Symbol of the Earth, its material,
sensual, and baser portion. "Truth and Intelligence,"
said one of the Ancient Indian Sects of Philosophers,
"are the Eternal attributes of God, not of the
individual Soul, which is susceptible both of knowledge
and ignorance, of pleasure and pain; therefore God and
the individual Soul are distinct :" and this expression
of the ancient Nyaya Philosophers, in regard to Truth,
has been handed down to us through the long succession
of ages, in the lessons of Freemasonry, wherein we
read, that "Truth is a Divine Attribute, and the
foundation of every virtue."

"While embodied in matter," they said, "the Soul is in
a state of imprisonment, and is under the influence of
evil passions; but having, by intense study, arrived at
the knowledge of the elements and principles of Nature,
it attains unto the place of THE ETERNAL; in which
state of happiness, its individuality does not cease."

From Morals and Dogma, Ch. 32

This is pure Kabbalism and Gnosticism. The Kabbalah has the belief that man ascends back to God through esoteric knowledge and practices. Pike believed that man was an "emanation from God," a Gnostic and Kabbalist belief. The book is just full of one of the deadliest philosophies I've seen because it tries to sound pious and perverts Christianity. At least La Vey's Satanic Bible is upfront in where it's coming from. Pike's stuff is mired in his attempts to overlay Neoplatonism and Gnosticism with Christianity so it would go down more smoothly.

How can a Christian admire Pike? How can a Christian be in an organization that is tied up with Pike's beliefs, which were very religious in the esoteric occult manner? I posted all this mainly for those who want more info on Masonry. The link above, a Masonic site, has the text of Pike's book (a pop-up ad comes up asking for help in the campaign against anti-Masonic sites selling Masonic books on CDrom).

 

[D28guy]

Marcia,

You said...

"I believe that in Freemasonry, which presents parts of the truth about man's condition, judgement of God, accepts Christless prayers, and teaches moral behavior, we see the Angel of Light at work."

Absolutly.

"Despite protestations that Freemasonry is not a religion, it presents itself as such with its moral but Christless philosophies and religous language, while at the same time deying that it is. That is tricky because it can make someone think they are seeing things. That is exactly something the Angel of Light would do."

It most certainly is.

God bless,

Mike

 

[Ben W]

Albert Pike is quoted alot, yet it has been stated over and over that what his writings were, were his own impressions and not based on just Freemasonry but a whole pile of different ideas.

To suggest that Albert Pike is a spokesperson for Freemasonry is exactly the same as if I suggested that the Baptist Church was wrong in its teachings because David Koresh said whatever concerning the book of Daniel in the Bible. Consider Herbert Armstrongs teachings on British Israelism, many Christians are into that stuff, yet its quotes from Scripture are lean and misinterpreted. Yet would it then be fair to penalise the whole church for the writings of one individual, and ascribe todays church teachings to them?

Masonic Funerals are not encouraged by the lodge, they are there for a pretty sad reason. That being that if a person has no religious affiliation, his friends will do a service for him. It is unfortunate also that Masonic Funerals are often used by people because they are Free when they cannot afford to pay the church. It is truly sad to see that there are churches that actually try and profit from funerals.

For all of the statements about Freemasonry and it being a religion, how about suppling a primary reference to how salvation is supplied. Show me where an assurance of Salvation is given in a masonic text without blinkers on.

There are many Christians in Freemasonry, particurly as there are orders in Freemasonry that are only For Trinitarian Christians. the "Red Cross of Constantine" for one.

Yes the Knights Templars also. I note that people are keen to take shots at them. Yet if they lived in that time I doubt they would have done any different. Should the same slur be placed on the Baptist Church because of Baptist Homophobes that have done sickening things to gay people? Definatley not.

 

[frewtloop]

How can a Christian admire Pike? How can a Christian be in an organization that is tied up with Pike's beliefs, which were very religious in the esoteric occult manner? I posted all this mainly for those who want more info on Masonry. The link above, a Masonic site, has the text of Pike's book (a pop-up ad comes up asking for help in the campaign against anti-Masonic sites selling Masonic books on CDrom).

Before you go off on a bender, why not simply ask for clarification? Yes, Pike was a remarkable man. Confucius must have been a remarkable man also, as were Plato, Aristotle, Mohammed and a thousand other remarkable people I could name. I'm sure Hitler was "remarkable" in his own way, although the "remarks" most would make are highly unfavorable. I think you are reading your own ideas into what I mean by the word "remarkable."

I find Pike remarkable because of the evidence in Morals and Dogma of how widely read he was. He was a schoolteacher, a poet, a historian, an essayist, a trapper and explorer, a gourmet, a lawyer, a publisher, a humorist, an education reformer, a military commander, an oratorical speaker, a state supreme court justice, a social reformer, an advocate of Indians' rights, philosopher, Freemason--the man lived an incredibly active life in quite a wide range of areas--hence his was a remarkable life.

I felt such an oppression because I was encountering the occult philosophies from which God had delivered me through Christ.

Obviously a subjective experience, I feel no such oppression in reading M&D, even though I too recognize a lot of philosphies and other material with which I do not agree, nor would ever agree. I'm afraid you have totally misread Pike, in spite of being shown already his own statement about how his book is to be taken. Pike's book is not the be-all and end-all, all-encompassing authoritative work on Freemasonry that people try to make it out to be. It ranks more as a thorough work on history of philosophy and world religions than anything else. Pike never intended anyone to swallow wholesale his entire book and everything in it. Far from it, he says over half of it is not his material, he has adopted it and included his words intermingled with it to the point he would not even put his name to it in a claim of authorship. He says anyone who wishes may object to anything in it, as he claims no authority for it. Nor does Freemasonry set it forth as authoritative, I daresay you will not find a single Grand Lodge jurisdiction that has this work used in any authoritative way. As I already pointed out, it is used far more by antimasons to pick and choose little snippets of it that they can isolate to construct a criticism of Freemasonry.

The page goes on to talk about the Cabbala (or Kabbalah), a mystical occult and Gnostic version of Judaism wherein one believes that the Torah contained hidden secret meanings. The Kabbalah, which was taught by the same organization where I took some astrology, psychic development, and past life regression classes and then later first taught astrology, and where I was resident astrologer, is the basis for Western esoteric Occult practices.

You seem to have brought with you into Christianity some inordinate fears. Christ has a solid link and an incredible hold on you if you will truly see it for what it is. You seem to fear the least little thing from your past, as though coming into contact with any of those things again is a contamination. Never fear, your perseverance has very little to do with your hold on Him and everything to do with His hold on you. The Kabbalah, in my estimation, is pretty mild stuff, I have a website that daily sends me little short studies, almost a devotional-like format, which I mostly glance over and go on, there simply isn't that much depth to what it has to say. And on the occasional circumstance when it does have something to say which I take as true, I don't get all knotted up about where it came from, since there are many other places where I find expressions of truth in the world. Because to me, all truth is God's truth, and is not limited to just the Holy Bible or to Christian frameworks. Although the Bible is my primary source on spiritual truth, I see nowhere in its pages where it claims to contain it all. Even John, at the end of his gospel, spoke of things that Jesus did and said which if written, the world could not contain all the books.

I do not mean to belittle your estimation of things outside Christianity, or of sources you label "occult," nor am I suggesting you embrace such things. But I would suggest that perhaps the feelings you experience at such contact are intended more for your benefit than as something to automatically make sweeping generaliations that get applied to others. You seem to try to portray a certain discernment that comes with having once been involved in such things. I know the feeling, I spent many years "on the other side," in heavy drug addiction. I wasn't into the philosophy side of things, just the old thrill-seeking adventure, but I knew enough to go the other way when I once came into contact with someone professing to be a witch, who owned some books on witchcraft. Since returning, I too feel I have a certain discernment that has come with experience. And Freemasonry has been a very different sort experience in that whole range.

It's not like I just jumped in and swalllowed a whole line of hogwash, I have looked at it from both sides, was once as convinced as you are that it was not of God. But time and further experience have made me re-examine everything I thought was so, and find that things were not as I once believed. And the biggest issue with me is, if this thing is supposed to be so incredibly evil, then where are all these evil Masons who are supposed to be coming out of it? All I can see is, we have all these horrible men sneaking around behind our backs building hospitals for children, helping people who have no other means of paying for such care, starting eye foundations, donating to charitable causes, being involved in probably more ways than we can imagine in guiding our youth, teaching and upholding moral principles of loving, active service to God and their fellow human beings. And no matter what your insistence might be to the contrary (as per your earlier post), this is the evidence of what our Lord Jesus Christ refers to as "fruit," and tells us is to be produced in our lives. Not to quibble points with you, but I think you would be hard pressed to find one instance in Jesus' teaching in which He speaks of fruit as a direct reference to "teaching" rather than as the godly attitudes and character He imparts to us, and the results of those dispositions when put into action.

Show me a consistent pattern of Freemasonry producing the opposite kind of fruit, rather than men who are actively seeking to allow God to transform their character and make them instruments of His grace and peace as they relate to family, church, community, and nation, and perhaps I will agree you have a case. But so far no one has ever quite been able to answer that challenge. And in fact, it gets mostly ignored, mainly because it cannot be done.

TW

P.S. I am familiar with the link you provided for Morals and Dogma, and it is one I still find I have trouble getting the links to work. One I have no problem with is below (although I post it reluctantly because it is actually an anti-masonic site). Be aware that this particular site has certain omissions at various points in the book. The ones that I have observed, though, are not significant as to content, with one glaring exception: they have neglected to include Pike's preface, which basically lays out the whole framework for understanding the book at all. In what amounts to a disclaimer and an absolute negation of antimasonic views of his work, Pike says:

In preparing this work, the Grand Commander has been about equally Author and Compiler; since he has extracted quite half its contents from the works of the best writers and most philosophic or eloquent thinkers. Perhaps it would have been better and more acceptable if he had extracted more and written less.

Still, perhaps half of it is his own; and, in incorporating here the thoughts and words of others, he has continually changed and added to the language, often intermingling, in the same sentences, his own words with theirs. . . . He claims, therefore, little of the merit of authorship, and has not cared to distinguish his own from that which he has taken from other sources, being quite willing that every portion of the book, in turn, may be regarded as borrowed from some old and better writer.

The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyong the realm of Morality into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottsh Rite uses the word “Dogma” in its true sense, of doctrine, or teaching; and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound. It is only requred of him that he shall weigh what is taught, and give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. Of course, the ancient theosophic and philosophic speculations are not embodied as part of the doctrines of the Rite; but because it is of interest and profit to know what the Ancient Intellect thought upon these subjects, and because nothing so conclusively proves the radical difference between our human and the animal nature, as the capacity of the human mind to entertain such speculations in regard to itself and the Deity.

http://www.illuminati-news.com/e-books/morals-dogma/apike.htm

 

[O.F.F.]

The Worm,

You wouldn't happen to be *snip* the UMC pastor who recently became a Mason, would you?

The reason I ask is because, I have read your several posts here, and they sound a LOT like the ones he posts on other sites.

It would be nice if you would tell us your real name. However, if you'd rather remain anonymous, that too would be something he would do.

In any event, can you at least tell us if you are a Mason and, if so, what jurisdiction do you hail?

Mike Gentry
(a.k.a. OFF)

From the moderator:
OFF, your post was edited in order to protect the privacy of the person you addressed. If he wishes to remain anonymous that is his option and right. Other posters should not reveal personally identifying information about other posters. Other than that, welcome to the board and post away.

~~Gina

[ May 18, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: Gina L ]

 

[O.F.F.]

To All,

As we have seen here, there are many who vehemently defend Freemasonry as if it were compatible with biblical Christianity, even to the point of suggesting that there's such a thing as Christian lodges. Click on the following title to dispel such a myth:

The Myth of the Christian Lodge

 

[Jacob Webber]

The E5-11 website that Mike has posted I would not recommend not because they are Anti-Masonic but they seemed obsest with Freemasonry and not about promoting Christ. Sevral times while I posted at the sit I tried to descuss other things than Freemasonry such as the Trinity and the Age of the Earth and the Great White Throne Judgement. They kept bringing up Freemasonry instead of wanting to talk about Jesus Christ the whole reason they said they were there for to begin with. I shared my testimony and was told that it was not real. I was called Stupid and Spritialy Blind by one of the Moderators. So please if you visit the E5-11 website becareful and open minded check both sides the Pro and Anti.

 

[O.F.F.]

Corey Webber,

I did NOT post a website, but rather a PDF file to an article from their website.

Would you now like to address "The Myth of the Christian Lodge" which I posted, or are you intent on distracting the discussion away from the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry as you have just admitted doing at E5-11?

Mike

 

[O.F.F.]

To All Southern Baptists,

Click on the following link to get the SBC position against Freemasonry:

A Closer Look at Freemasonry

Mike

 

[Jacob Webber]

(which I posted, or are you intent on distracting the discussion away from the biblical incompatibility of Freemasonry as you have just admitted doing at E5-11)

Mike in the
off topic section at the E5-11 website is were I posted and yet those there would drag Freemasonry back into it. But no I am not trying to get off topic I just stated what problems I ran into at E5-11 and told evryone to look at both sides the Pro and Anti Masonic but you seemed to overlooked that part. I will read the Pdf file and get back with you.

 

[Marcia]

Worm, first of all, I am not afraid of things from my past. If you look at my website, you will see that I actually have a whole ministry on it --that is, the New Age and the occult. I was immersed in these beliefs for most of my life until December, 1990, when God delivered me from them through Christ. I also teach in churches and at conferences on them. I've been doing that part-time for 10 yrs. and full-time for 6 yrs. I am actually considered an expert in this area. I've been quoted in books and newspapers, been interviewed for news articles, been on many radio shows, and have written magazine articles on these topics. I am consulted by pastors and other ministries. I say this to show that I was not a dabbler and that I am not talking about things I don't know about when it comes to the occult, roots of the New Age, the Kabbalah, Pike, and other related areas. I am hardly afraid of these things. Christ set me free and now I expose them. I would never say these things about Pike unless I was sure of them.

Yes, Pike drew from any beliefs but he clearly finds no problem with most of them. He expresses a philosophy and belief system in M & D; he was not just writing randomly for the fun of it, after all. It is the esoteric occult philosophy of reaching the Divine through our own efforts. This is also a belief in ceremonial magick, which was Aleister Crowley's belief, although such people use magickal rituals to get there (much of ritual magick is based on the Kabbalah). People like Pike, Blavatsky, Israel Regardie, Eliphas Levi, Steiner, Ouspensky, and other occutlists, were the advocates of intellectual esoteric ideas and practices to symbolize those beliefs.

They believed that "awareness" came from ascension to the "light" of understanding. There is no concept of salvation because they do not believe one needs to be "saved," only liberated from ignorance. That is why "salvation" is not taught as such in Freemasonry, although the Jacob's ladder thing I quoted (from a Masonic book as I indicate) is a good representation of their idea of liberation and ascending to heaven.

Worm, you talk about fruit as though it is just behavior. But we are told clearly in the Bible that we are to examine teachings. Fruit is not just behavior but also what one believes and teaches. I have known New Agers and even witches who behave better than some Christians -- they are kind, will help you at a momen't notice, are loyal, give genrously, have good ethics, etc. Mormons are also known for their moral stance. Does these mean that because of this behavior they are okay? Of course not! Their teachings are totally unbiblical. So teachings are just as important as behavior.

And if you think the Kabbalah is mild, you are not aware of what it is. The Kabbalah is from Gnosticism; it is directly opposed to God's word and to Christian beliefs. Kabbalah and gnostic beliefs include the belief that Satan is not totally evil and can be redeemed; that Lucifer was bringing wisdom to man in the Garden; that God is an Absolute principle, unknowable by man (called Ein Sof in the Kabbalah); and that man is really spirit from the Absolute and is trapped in a body.

Below is an entry on the Kabbalah from my site:

Kabbalah (also spelled Kabala, Cabala, Qabalah, etc.) - Considered an offshoot of Jewish mysticism, the beliefs of the Kabbalah are a mystical and incredibly complex re-interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures which is actually closer to Gnosticism. The Kabbalah uses terms, people and situations from Hebrew Scripture, but adds an underlying esoteric meaning and techniques to advance to mystical states. Followers of the Kabbalah believe it was taught to angels, and then to Adam as a way back to God after the Fall in the Garden of Eden. The world was created by God "through 32 secret paths of wisdom which are the ten sephirot and the twenty-two letters of the Hebrew alphabet" the sephirot being emanations originating in God (Guiley, Paranormal, 306). Creation is divine, and contains God: "Do not say, 'This is a stone and not God.'; God forbid! Rather, all existence is God, and the stone is a thing pervaded by divinity" (Matt, 24). The textbooks for the Kabbalah are the Sepher Yetzirah, ascribed to Rabbi Akiba (or Akiva) around 100 AD, and the Zohar (Book of Splendor), a thirteenth-century book often ascribed to Kabbalist Moses de Leon or to Rabbi Simeon. God is called Ein-Sof and is "unknowable and beyond representation," (Guiley, 307) and "should never be conceptualized in any way....should not be called Creator, Almighty, Father, Mother, Infinite, the One, Brahma, Buddhamind, Allah, Adonoy, Elohim, El, or Shaddai;..." (Cooper, 65). Man's goal is union with the Divine, and by doing so, others in the universe are also elevated. Ecstatic and mystical trance-like states are associated with the study of the Kabbalah. It is also considered dangerous to study the Kabbalah, and is only for one who is stable and ethical (Epstein, 2, 3; Matt, 17). A central point of the Kabbalah is the Tree of Life, a diagram of "the descent of the divine into the material world," and how man can ascend back to God (Guiley, 308; Epstein, 2). One "climbs" the Tree of Life back to God through meditation and contemplation of the different parts of this Tree, and "on the corresponding Hebrew letters of the divine names of God" and other things such as planets and angels (Guiley, 308). The Tree of Life is also called "a complete map of consciousness" and represents "the evolution of the individual....and the universe" (Parfitt, 3). The Tree of Life and its ten spheres are sometimes equated with the chakras of Yoga (Ibid., 61). A Kabbalist can receive "messages" and "teachings" from "archangels, angels, demons, animals, plants, and rocks" (Ibid., 73). God is considered to have a female aspect, and sexual union is symbolic of spiritual union. There is a history of magickal practices, based on the Kabbalah, which are used today. The secret society, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, was influenced by the Kabbalah through occultists Eliphas Levi and MacGregor Mathers. Other well-known occultists who used the Kabbalah were Israel Regardie and the infamous Aleister Crowley. In fact, many regard the Kabbalah as the foundation of Western Esoteric/Mystery/Magickal Traditions, and was called by occultist Dion Fortune "the Yoga of the West" (Cicero, 6). One of the more well-known practices is the correspondence of a number for each Hebrew letter of the alphabet, and using this as a numerology for hidden meanings. The sounds and writing of the letters are also put into an occult context for either mystical or magickal purposes. There is an emphasis on the sacred name of God, the Tetragrammaton, which is used in the practice of magick. The practitioner of Kabbalah occultism uses techniques and rituals to have power over the spirit world, even demons, and hopes for a union with the Divine. The occult view of polarity is seen in Rabbi David Cooper's explanation of good and evil in his best-selling book on the Kabbalah. Stating that even "evil has divine nature" in it, Cooper says that "evil as we know it can never be eradicated, even if we wanted, for it fulfills a primary function in creation" (God Is A Verb, 160). The Kabbalah is perhaps the most extensive collection of occult teachings in existence. For more information see http://www.apologeticsindex.org/k03.html

From Occult Terms

The books and authors quoted in the entry above are listed at the end of the 4 pages.

 

[Jacob Webber]

1. Worshipful Master means Repectable Man
and there is no Secret Name of God in Freemasonry

2. The penalties are symbolic read Born in the Blood by John Robinson for futher explaintion

3. Abert Pike is not recommended by a Majority of Masons because he uses such poetic writing that He is easliy misunderstood.

4. If this is wrong than evryone is wrong when you are asked lets say when yo are moving into a new house and you have your moving van packed for of you things including your Bible. When someone ask you what you have in the van do you reply my things and my Bible or do you say my Things. If you have a book shelf full of books One of which is your Bible to you tell people that your book shelf has books and a Bible or do you say there are books on the Shelves.

5. This one should not even be on here because a person could take light to mean salvation. When Freemasonry clearly teaches light as knowledge. Just because something can be mistaken does not mean it is wrong. It just means your perseption of it is wrong.

6. I can not speak for the Scottish Rite but the Blue Lodge does not teach Salvation and the York Rite teaches Salvation thru Jesus.

7. Freemasonry does not Teach all people will be saved. That is why it uses words like MAY it be your portion to hear well done.

8. This is not the teaching of Freemasonry. Freemasonry does not require a certain skin shade to become a member. This is totaly false. Although some people in Freemasonry are Rasist the Teachings of Freemasonry are not.

Prince Hall is a Masonic body of Aficain American Masons

 

[O.F.F.]

Way to go Marcia,

I want to commend you for your posts to "The Worm" as you have made some solid points. One in particular is worth reiterating:

Worm, you talk about fruit as though it is just behavior. But we are told clearly in the Bible that we are to examine teachings. Fruit is not just behavior but also what one believes and teaches.

This brings to mind 2 Corinthians 10

4The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5We demolish arguments (smashing warped philosophies, refute arguments, destroying speculations, casting down twisted theories and faulty reasonings and every proud and lofty thing) and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (emphasis mine)

It is interesting to also note that many of the occultists/satanists you mentioned in your last post such as Crowley, Pike, Blavatsky, and Levi are -- or were -- all Masons! Although I plan to visit it in more detail, I find your website very interesting, and it contains a lot of helpful information to equip saints in this spiritual battle against the New Age Movement.

Thanks, and may God bless you and your ministry!

Mike