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Freemasonry
- Thread starter Turbeville
- Start date
These would have to be when we are in a state of grace... i.e., after Salvation. Of course, I see Salvation as a process.
The Orthodox speak of 'deification', a PROCESS whereby a Christian becomes more like God.
2Pet. 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
This does NOT mean we (ala Mormonism)become 'gods'. It does mean that we can, that we ARE called to bear His image.
So, in their view, when the Son of God assumed our humanity in the womb of the blessed Virgin Mary, the process of our being renewed in God's image and likeness was begun. Thus, those who are joind to Christ through faith in Holy Baptism begin a re-creation process, being renewed in God's image and likeness. We become, as St Peter writes, "partakers of the Divine Nature."
Deification has been illustrated by the 'sword and fire' example. A sword, made of steel, is thrust into the fire until it takes-on a red glow. The energy of the fire penetrates the sword. The sword does not, of course, become fire, but it picks-up the properties OF the fire. That is what 'deification' is about. It is another word for 'salvation', making the 'old man' into the 'new'.
As one Orthodox source says, "Nourished by the Body and Blood of Christ, we partake of the Grace of God-His Strength, His righteousness, His love-and are enabled to serve Him and glorify Him. Thus we, being human, are being deified."
Now, if the Masons are calling for good works apart from Grace, they are wasting their time. It will profit them nothing.
I still say, WHY waste time in fellowship with a 'Lodge' (or for that matter, ANY civil organization), when you could devote all of your time to the Church?
Turbeville
New Member
Jude...salvation is not a process..once saved then that part is over and you begin the sanctification process until you die...with God grace you continue to grow and become more Christlike...this is the goal for all Christians.
Perhaps that's what you've been taught, but it has no warrant in Scripture or in the history of the early Church. Salvation is not just a 'ticket to heaven', but where a man becomes 'new'. Sanctification is NOT seperate from salvation-it is a crucial part. In fact, Jesus says only those who 'endure' to the end will be saved.
Jude,
Are you of the belief that one must become perfect before one enters the presence of God?
Do you believe in purgatory?
If not, then why is sanctification crucial? Is there some level of perfection that one must reach in life before one can enter into the kingdom of heaven?
tamborine lady
Active Member
John 1-12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
He gives us power to become. TO BECOME!!!
Seems it means there is more to it than just believing on His name.
JMHO
Working for Jesus,
Tam
Turbeville
New Member
Jude...you have been taught the wrong thing...there are three parts...1) Salvation 2) sanctification 3) Glorification..Once you repent of your sins and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior then you have been saved.. Then the journey starts to become Christlike which is Sanctification...if you are not interested in growing in Christ then maybe you were not saved. Jude you will find out the truth when you stand before Jesus! If you are preaching anything different in your church then you are deceiving a lot of folks!
Jude,
Originally posted by Turbeville:
In the "history of the *organised* church" we have false doctrine, heresy, the wedding of Gods church to paganism, murder and liscentiousness overflowing in the Papacy, church sponsored idolatry, the blood of the saints of God on her hands, etc.
The history of the organised church, both the Roman and Eastern, is not a pretty sight.
But regarding the truth of salvation being a one time event, and our complete security as well, and scripture....
"In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarentee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possesion."
He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit as a guarentee."
"Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."
And this is the testimony, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son, has the life. He who does not have the son, does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
I could go on and on and on of course.
Its so very important that the scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove, rather then being a mass of contradictions and inconsistantsies..
God bless,
Mike
[ April 29, 2004, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]
Originally posted by Turbeville:
And you said...
Well, concerning the "history of the church", that is not to be a consideration at all.
In the "history of the *organised* church" we have false doctrine, heresy, the wedding of Gods church to paganism, murder and liscentiousness overflowing in the Papacy, church sponsored idolatry, the blood of the saints of God on her hands, etc.
The history of the organised church, both the Roman and Eastern, is not a pretty sight.
But regarding the truth of salvation being a one time event, and our complete security as well, and scripture....
"In whom you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarentee of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possesion."
He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit as a guarentee."
"Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love."
And this is the testimony, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son, has the life. He who does not have the son, does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."
I could go on and on and on of course.
Its so very important that the scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove, rather then being a mass of contradictions and inconsistantsies..
God bless,
Mike
[ April 29, 2004, 04:33 AM: Message edited by: D28guy ]
We will all find out the truth when we stand before Jesus. As far as your comment, "if you are not interested in growing in Christ then maybe you were not saved," well, it just doesn't jive with experience or Scripture. By experience, I mean I see many who 'give their hearts to Jesus', in one way or another, who fall by the wayside. They don't endure. They ARE sincere at first, but then the world or the flesh or the devil rob them of their salvation. Jesus even said this was possible...
Mark 4.3-7 “Listen! A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants, so that they did not bear grain. Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up, grew and produced a crop, multiplying thirty, sixty, or even a hundred times.”
And, as far as your comment, " If you are preaching anything different in your church then you are deceiving a lot of folks!", I always pray that that is NOT the case. I am a very conservative Anglican/Episcopal priest, in a very conservative diocese in the USA. That said, I would never preach anything that was contrary to Scripture. And all that I preach is the 'Catholic' faith. Part of the faith says that 'once you accept Jesus, repent of your sins (which involve WORKS, BTW, a turning from the old life to the new), and are BAPTIZED, you are JUSTIFIED. Your sins may be as high as Everest, but in an instant they are forgiven. But that is the beginning. Now comes the hard part...bearing one's Cross...dying to Christ...battling the world, (your own)the flesh and the devil. The 'process' is sanctification...enduring to the end. If I do, I will be found worthy to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. It takes GRACE for me to do this. I can't do it alone. But God will not force me to become holy. That is a decision -daily- that I must make. If by being 'perfect' people mean that we must be like God's perfectness to enter heaven, then of course, we all have no chance. But 'perfect' can also mean righteous...and that, according to the Bible, can be done, can be accomplished. I think to preach the 'easy believism' that I see on many of these postings on BB would be "deceiving a lot of folks." Charles Stanley does that all the time. So does John Macarthur. So does Ron Hutchcraft, and anyone who preaches 'eternal security'. This doctrine is an illusion. It is a lie.
James 2:24 NASB You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.
Matt. 10.22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt. 24.13 ...but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13.13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Rev. 2.26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations
How do people who have not reached perfection on earth enter into the presence of the Lord if there is no purgatory? </font>[/QUOTE]Of course, that IS an interesting question. The easy answer would be 'grace'. Rightly understood, both our FAITH and our WORKS are viewed under the system of GRACE, not of the Law. If it were the latter, even our FAITH would not be perfect enough.
Jim,
From one former Mason to another, I'd to say hello and ask, "will you be O.F.F. or from?"
This is my first post to the forum and I must say, it is pleasure to be here.
I wanted to ask you a few questions regarding one of your posts, where you said:
But, you're from Canada. Perhaps you could share with us at what point in the ritual and during what degree was the gospel presented?
Also, what doctrinal issue was it that caused you to decide to resign from the Masonic Order? And, since you left for doctrinal reasons, isn't any deviation from essential doctrine a detraction from Christianity?
Sincerely in Christ,
Mike Gentry
Order of Former Freemasons
From one former Mason to another, I'd to say hello and ask, "will you be O.F.F. or from?"
I wanted to ask you a few questions regarding one of your posts, where you said:
First of all, I would add that in addition to the "chairs" there is also a fascination in advancing through the degrees, even beyond the Blue Lodge. Yet, while there may have been indirect encouragement to attend church, I never heard a presentation of the gospel of Jesus Christ in any form in any lodge meeting I ever attended and I practiced Freemasonry for 10 years.
But, you're from Canada. Perhaps you could share with us at what point in the ritual and during what degree was the gospel presented?
Also, what doctrinal issue was it that caused you to decide to resign from the Masonic Order? And, since you left for doctrinal reasons, isn't any deviation from essential doctrine a detraction from Christianity?
Sincerely in Christ,
Mike Gentry
Order of Former Freemasons
Eladar,
"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as rightiousness.(accounted = imputed) "just as David describes the blessedness of the man whom God imputes rightiousness apart from works."
"For by one offering He has (past tense) perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
As we "work out our salvation" here on earth, we are putting off the "old man", who has been executed by crucifiction, and putting on more and more of the "new man", who has already been created by God...
"that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the decietful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was (past tense) created according to God, in true rightiousness and holiness."
Be sure...the traditions and religions of men do not always teach these truths. But God certainly does.
God bless,
Mike
All who are in Christ have attained perfection on earth. Every born again person is permanantly made 100% perfect in Gods eyes at the instant of their new birth...
"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace, but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted as rightiousness.(accounted = imputed) "just as David describes the blessedness of the man whom God imputes rightiousness apart from works."
"For by one offering He has (past tense) perfected forever those who are being sanctified."
As we "work out our salvation" here on earth, we are putting off the "old man", who has been executed by crucifiction, and putting on more and more of the "new man", who has already been created by God...
"that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the decietful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was (past tense) created according to God, in true rightiousness and holiness."
Be sure...the traditions and religions of men do not always teach these truths. But God certainly does.
God bless,
Mike
Mike,
Great reply to Eladar. Could you please provide the "biblical address" of the verses you quoted. It's always helpful to know the specific verses so that folks can confirm for themselves what God's Word says. It also helps to verify and show to readers that they are being quoted in the proper context of the chapters in which they came from.
Thanks,
Mike
Great reply to Eladar. Could you please provide the "biblical address" of the verses you quoted. It's always helpful to know the specific verses so that folks can confirm for themselves what God's Word says. It also helps to verify and show to readers that they are being quoted in the proper context of the chapters in which they came from.
Thanks,
Mike
Jim,
Pardon me for not reading your subsequent post where you said:
As a Christian, you should know that nothing God has to offer is a secret, especially the essential doctrines that are the foundation that supports our faith. You have no Masonic obligation to hold as a secret the doctrine(s) of the historic Christian faith.
However, I do not want you feel as though I am pressuring you to share with us specifically why you left the Masonic Order. If you feel I am imposing, I will certainly back O.F.F. (pun intended). Yet, if you left for doctrinal reasons, you should not want any other Christian to join the Lodge for the same reasons.
I too left for doctrinal reasons. And, I it is important for saints to know that while Freemasonry does a lot of good philantropy, it teachings are incompatible with biblical Christianity for the following doctrinal reasons:
</font>
As for oaths, it is the opinion of O.F.F. and Ex-Masons for Jesus that we're not obligated to an oath which was rendered to us under false pretenses. As far as we are concern, the oaths which we took are null and void. More importantly, God has released us from them.
Leviticus 5:4-6 makes it clear that when something is hidden from a man (in this case, the fact that the teachings of the Lodge violate God's Word) and he takes an oath thoughtlessly, he is guilty of sin. When he recognizes it as sin (which we have) he may be released from it by confessing it as such and claiming the promise found in 1 John 1:8-9; "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
As for the Levitical demand for a sin offering, praise God that He offered His Son, Jesus Christ, as full payment for our sin debt, once and for all! The day we made that confession, renounced Masonic teachings, and claimed the promises of God, was the day He set us free from the obligations and deceptions of Freemasonry.
Jim, Freemasonry dishonored you when they had you take an oath to an organization whose teachings dishonor God and His Word. Masons want you to feel guilty and dishonorable if you violate your Masonic oath. However, as long as you remain silent for the Lodge you now no longer belong to, you remain in bondage through obedience to men, rather than being truly free through obedience to God.
Don't let the Enemy (satan) deceive you by keeping you captive to the Masonic Order by an obligation. For Jesus has set you free!
Pardon me for not reading your subsequent post where you said:
Not sure how long you traveled, but you should know that the only secrets of Freemasonry are the Modes of Recognition (signs, due guards, passwords and tokens, which are the grips or secret handshakes).
As a Christian, you should know that nothing God has to offer is a secret, especially the essential doctrines that are the foundation that supports our faith. You have no Masonic obligation to hold as a secret the doctrine(s) of the historic Christian faith.
However, I do not want you feel as though I am pressuring you to share with us specifically why you left the Masonic Order. If you feel I am imposing, I will certainly back O.F.F. (pun intended). Yet, if you left for doctrinal reasons, you should not want any other Christian to join the Lodge for the same reasons.
I too left for doctrinal reasons. And, I it is important for saints to know that while Freemasonry does a lot of good philantropy, it teachings are incompatible with biblical Christianity for the following doctrinal reasons:
</font>
- It teaches a false concept of God, via the presentation of the letter "G" (GAOTU) in the 2nd degree and its mischaracterization written in Grand Lodge literature that suggests all concepts of God are essentially the same (Landmark 19 & 22).
|</font> - It teaches a false concept of the Word of God, via Masonic Landmark #21, regarding the VSL or Volume of Sacred Law. The "Book of the Law" is that volume which, by the religion of the Mason, is believed to contain the revealed will of the Grand Architect of the Universe (GAOTU).
|</font> - It teaches a false plan of salvation via "works" rather than via faith in Jesus Christ alone, as presented in the lecture of the Lambskin apron as a symbol or "reminded of that purity of life and rectitude of conduct so essential to gaining admission to the Celestial Lodge above." And, from the lecture of the Common Gavel as an instrument to control sin in a Mason's life, thereby fitting or preparing one for heaven.
|</font> - Scripture is corrupted time and again within Freemasonry to present “lessons” that the Bible (the Word of God) never intended to teach. Employing historical Scripture to present a Temple that is a gnostic representation of man is more than simple misapplication. Its intent is to deceive those that know no better by lending Scriptural credence to false teachings.</font>
As for oaths, it is the opinion of O.F.F. and Ex-Masons for Jesus that we're not obligated to an oath which was rendered to us under false pretenses. As far as we are concern, the oaths which we took are null and void. More importantly, God has released us from them.
Leviticus 5:4-6 makes it clear that when something is hidden from a man (in this case, the fact that the teachings of the Lodge violate God's Word) and he takes an oath thoughtlessly, he is guilty of sin. When he recognizes it as sin (which we have) he may be released from it by confessing it as such and claiming the promise found in 1 John 1:8-9; "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
As for the Levitical demand for a sin offering, praise God that He offered His Son, Jesus Christ, as full payment for our sin debt, once and for all! The day we made that confession, renounced Masonic teachings, and claimed the promises of God, was the day He set us free from the obligations and deceptions of Freemasonry.
Jim, Freemasonry dishonored you when they had you take an oath to an organization whose teachings dishonor God and His Word. Masons want you to feel guilty and dishonorable if you violate your Masonic oath. However, as long as you remain silent for the Lodge you now no longer belong to, you remain in bondage through obedience to men, rather than being truly free through obedience to God.
Don't let the Enemy (satan) deceive you by keeping you captive to the Masonic Order by an obligation. For Jesus has set you free!
tamborine lady
Active Member
I had a good friend once that had been a Mason. He left it quite a few years before he passed away.
When I asked him what they were all about, he said he couldn't talk about it, because some very serious threats are made when a man leaves the lodge.
This is just what he said, I don't know what he meant, or how true it is.
Tam,
Tam,
Most Masons will refuse to divulge anything and will "forever conceal, and never reveal any of the art or arts, part or parts, point or points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry, which they have received, may be about to receive, or may be hereafter be instructed in, to any person unless it shall be to a worthy Brother Mason."
This is, in part, the result of the fear so indelibly embedded on one's mind when they enter the lodge for the very first time; being "received on the point of a sharp instrument piercing their naked left breast, which is to teach them that as this is an instrument of torture to the flesh, so should the recollection thereof be to their minds and consciences, should they ever reveal the secrets of Freemasonry unlawfully."
What's more, after taking the bloody oath that reinforces this fear, the candidate is told that the penalty of their oath (or obligation) of having their throat cut, or their chest torn open, or their body severed into two pieces is not literal, but instead, "symbolic of what an honest man would rather undergo then to violate his solemn vow." Yet, by then it is too late, the fear factor has already been well instilled.
So, it turns out to be a "catch-22," either you fear that some over zealous Mason just might hold you accountable by fulfilling the penalty on behalf of the Craft, or else your pride and ego are at risk of being destroyed. In either case, most Masons (and some former Masons) choose to take the safest route and keep their mouths shut entirely, rather than risk either consequence.
However, as I alluded above, there are others who do not fear men as much as they fear God.
Mike
Most Masons will refuse to divulge anything and will "forever conceal, and never reveal any of the art or arts, part or parts, point or points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry, which they have received, may be about to receive, or may be hereafter be instructed in, to any person unless it shall be to a worthy Brother Mason."
This is, in part, the result of the fear so indelibly embedded on one's mind when they enter the lodge for the very first time; being "received on the point of a sharp instrument piercing their naked left breast, which is to teach them that as this is an instrument of torture to the flesh, so should the recollection thereof be to their minds and consciences, should they ever reveal the secrets of Freemasonry unlawfully."
What's more, after taking the bloody oath that reinforces this fear, the candidate is told that the penalty of their oath (or obligation) of having their throat cut, or their chest torn open, or their body severed into two pieces is not literal, but instead, "symbolic of what an honest man would rather undergo then to violate his solemn vow." Yet, by then it is too late, the fear factor has already been well instilled.
So, it turns out to be a "catch-22," either you fear that some over zealous Mason just might hold you accountable by fulfilling the penalty on behalf of the Craft, or else your pride and ego are at risk of being destroyed. In either case, most Masons (and some former Masons) choose to take the safest route and keep their mouths shut entirely, rather than risk either consequence.
However, as I alluded above, there are others who do not fear men as much as they fear God.
Mike