Freemasonry

[Marcia]

Eladar, I think now might be a good time.

 

[Jacob Webber]

This is part of want is taught in Freemasonry. Tell what other religions teach this.

Lion of the Tribe of Judah
God in the Threefold aspect of the Trinity
Jehovah

 

[Jacob Webber]

This is from the Study done by the SBC on Freemasonry that Freemasonry says the following:

(Because of an unshaken faith in the merits of th Lion of the Tribe of Judah, we shall gain admission into the celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides)
The above statement was taken from Gary Leazer Ph.D. who done some of the investigating for the SBC

This is what the Study from the SBC says Freemasonry says.

In Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

So according to this statement in the Study the SBC says Freemasonry says Faith in what Jesus Christ done it what gets us into Heaven.

 

[frewtloop]

Marcia,

How far must one go before one simply writes it off with "let those who have eyes see" and dust oneself off?

Eladar, I think now might be a good time.

Great idea! Maybe we can all catch a train for Turbeville.

 

[frewtloop]

From Freemasonrywatch.com, a fuller quote of the same:

Let us see to it, and so regulate our lives by the plumb line of justice, ever squaring our actions by the square of virtue, that when the Grand Warden of Heaven shall call us from our labors we may be found ready. Let us cultivate the noble tenets of our profession -- Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth. Then when our summons draws nigh, let us with joy obey and go forth from our labors on earth to eternal refreshment in the presence of an All Wise Governor, where because of an unshaken faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, we shall gain admission into the celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

 

[frewtloop]

Then when our summons draws nigh, let us with joy obey and go forth from our labors on earth to eternal refreshment in the presence of an All Wise Governor, where because of an unshaken faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, we shall gain admission into the celestial Lodge above where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

Well, Jacob, it looks like our friends are skipping out on us, and just when it was getting good. Look at the statements and the subtle changes from other places where something similar appears: The GAOTU becomes the All Wise Governor; "unshaken faith in the merits of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah" cannot be interpreted as any other than (1) Jesus (the lion) (2) no "salvation of works" ("unshaken faith") (3) no more "one must examine what is being said about Jesus and the cross" (since the "merits" of the Lion of the tribe of Judah are just that, the work of Christ on the cross).

That's a stupendously profound statement of a Mason's faith having been in Christ. But it doesn't stop there. Notice the subtle change in the next sentence? "we shall gain admission into the celestial Lodge above." Strange, earlier, we were talking about rituals without the name of Christ in them, and they said "might" gain admission, now with Jesus firmly in place in ritual, we find the words changed to "we shall." Pretty telling, wouldn't you say?

TW

 

[frewtloop]

[ May 20, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: TheWorm ]

 

[frewtloop]

Eladar,

How far must one go before one simply writes it off with "let those who have eyes see" and dust oneself off?

Strange, that passage dealing with the sending out of the seventy is reported in all 3 Synoptic gospels, yet none of them seems to contain that phrase you quoted. Must be a glitch in your program. But I think you have it misapplied anyway, even before I caught that. The thing Jesus told them was, if anyone would not receive them when they came visiting, to shake off even the dust on their sandals as a testimony against them. It has nothing to do with mischaracterizing a group of Christians you disagree with, and then in frustration at their not rolling over and playing dead, attempting to mischaracterize them further by misusing Scripture. But that's OK, I think we're beginning to get the real picture from Marcia:

Someone posted earlier something about how aren't we all seeking more light? No, I'm not. I have the light of Christ. Do I seek a closer walk with Him? Yes, but that is not seeking more light. Seeking more light is a statement used in New Age philosophies (that really began a long time ago) to mean that you are constantly evolving into higher states of understanding.
This is metaphysical language alien to the Bible. I know what it means, and it has nothing to do with the true God or Christ or the Bible. I was a New Ager for about 20 yrs. - I ate, drank, lived and breathed esoteric, metaphysical beliefs from many sources. I also taught astrology, so I was deeply involved. When I read these Masonry materials, they take me right back to that other life.
I myself, as an astrologer, wrote a 3 part article once on Jesus. I talked about the cross and even his 2nd coming. But it was all in terms of New Age philosophy, and I put my own meaning into it based on my New Age worldview.
This teaching of spiritual vs. material is also New Age. I have on page 6 of my article, "God in the Mirror" (to which I've posted a link below)
If you read my article, "God in the Mirror: Evil, Sin, and Salvation" you'll see this same Gnostic idea in other New Age beliefs going back a ways. It's at God in the Mirror

Well, I disagree that your self-proclaimed expertise in New Age and whatever else you were involved in makes you an expert on the subject of Freemasonry. Nor do I make any such claim for myself, but I simply come away with a very different point of view after 15 months of intensive study and investigation, debate with antimasons, and discussion with Masons. Neither do I have an expert opinion to proclaim or a website to refer to in support, and thus create for myself what amounts to free ads for my webpage. I simply seek the truth, and believe I have found the truth, which will, for anyone who seeks it, set them free from all the false accusations and misinformation that has for so long been disseminated against this group of men dedicated to improving themselves and helping those around them.

TW

 

[D28guy]

Worm,

"I simply pointed out the anachronism created by your insistence that the requirement for being "complete and thoroughly equipped" was, 66 books, OT and NT."

It has nothing to do with anything I am insisting.

It is the testimony of God on this subject.

God does not force anyone to agree with Him. He will allow anyone to continue stumbling on in the confusion of man made philosophies and meanderings. They will in due time reap the unfortunate consequences of turning a blind eye to Gods truth in order to hold to the erronious philosphies of men, and various false religious systems.

In our human pride we tend to cling to things we like, are just used to, or that hold some very personal attachment...even in the face of Gods truth.

I've done that in times in the past, and it is a glorious and very liberating thing to come into agreement with God, and His truth.

God bless,

Mike

 

[D28guy]

Worm,

"I simply pointed out the anachronism created by your insistence that the requirement for being "complete and thoroughly equipped" was, 66 books, OT and NT. Naturally, your insistence on that point rendered your definition null and void, as it would have involved Timothy, in his attempt to follow through on his mentor's exhortation, relying on the authority of several books that were not written yet, almost certainly including Hebrews and all five of John's writings."

O.K.

Let me try this one more time.

Worm...

THIS.....IS.....NOW.....Worm.

IT.....IS.....NOT.....THE.....TIME.....OF.....TIMOTHY.

THIS....IS....(((NOW))).

*NOW*...we have the completed word of God, and that is precisely what God is referring to, now.

"I can only assume you are trying to detract or derail either me or this conversation,..."

No...the one who seems to be attempting to derail something is you trying to derail the truth that the 66 books of the old and new testament are our God ordained, and completly sufficient truth standard, by saying it only applies to Timothy.

Let me ask you this, according to this absurd theory of yours does Christs teaching that "you must be born again" only apply to Nicodemous...since thats who He said it to 2000 years ago?

"...since your repeats of my comments are growing more and more incomprehensible, and have less and less resemblance to anything I have said.

I'm not attempting to resemble anything you said...I'm correcting the errors you have said.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[Ben W]

Jacob, thankyou for the material on the Lion of Judah and the research of the SBC professer. I had never seen that before. Is there a website where the work of Gary Leazer is published?

 

[frewtloop]

In our human pride we tend to cling to things we like, are just used to, or that hold some very personal attachment...even in the face of Gods truth.

I've done that in times in the past, and it is a glorious and very liberating thing to come into agreement with God, and His truth.

It is equally true that in our human pride we tend to cling to things that are familiar, or that hold some very personal attachment...because in our human misunderstanding, we think they go in the face of God's truth, when in reality, they are God's truth.

Think how hard it must have been for the Jews dealing with the Christians after Pentecost. After all, they could point to every place in the Word of God where it pointed out the errors of this bunch of ruffians. And the one place it most specifically denounced them was in its estimation of their leader. The description of such a one was, and had always been, one of condemnation: "cursed is he who hangs on a tree." How could they even suspect that God was now reversing the curse, taking the instrument of the greatest torture the world had ever known, and transforming it into the greatest deed the world has ever known? And there were so many of them who simply could not let go of the interpretation of the Word, of events and circumstances around them, of the times that God had proclaimed, and thus wound up persecuting and even condemning these despised people to cruel and horrible deaths.

Not that I in any way try to make any comparison here other than by analogy. You do, after all, take the same strict, literal interpretive road that they did, using the Word to accuse and malign, so certain of their own views that they refused to hear any other and thus, as Gamaliel had warned them, wound up "fighting against God."

It can be a very easy thing to take the easy road and chime in with those who seem to be right, and seem to be the most able to prove what they say, and can appeal to all the sources and means at their disposal that seem to convince them they are right. That can be a temptation that is just too sweet to resist. I've done that in times in the past, and it is a glorious and very liberating thing to come into agreement with God, and His truth. And sometimes His truth is not what we thought, and we have to realize that what we thought was His truth, was actually ours. That's not an easy process, and it's one that took many months and years of processing and searching, before finally realizing that I was criticizing and condemning those whom I thought were foes, but whom I afterwards found to be brothers.

God bless you, I wish you no ill, and hope that in spite of disagreements, you wish me none either, but I must take the course my Jesus has laid out for me, and wear without shame the name of Freemason that so many misunderstood Christian brothers have done who have gone this way before me.

TW

I

 

[frewtloop]

Let me try this one more time.

Worm...

THIS.....IS.....NOW.....Worm.

IT.....IS.....NOT.....THE.....TIME.....OF.....TIMOTHY.

THIS....IS....(((NOW))).

Well, you've finally done it. I'd have to be a complete idiot to disagree with that one. Depending on your definition of "complete," of course. So now let me do some correcting of my own.

THAT.....WAS.....THEN......OUR.....DISCUSSION.....WAS......ABOUT......THAT......DAY......AND.....TIME.......NOT......((THIS))......ONE

1. The point you sought to make had to do with what it meant to be "complete and fully equipped"

2. Your definition of "complete and fully equipped" was "the 66 books of the Bible, OT and NT, that's God's standard"

3. Since this was written to---are you listening?----to TIMOTHY----the definition was faulty, since in no way could he be equipped with a half-dozen books that had not yet been written.

Maybe you can write the NT scholars who determined what those dates were, and see if they can't fudge the dates a little bit for you. It can't hurt, since you seem to have grabbed every other straw you can to keep from admitting a simple misstep.

TW

 

[Jacob Webber]

Ben W

The Study is no longer published I tried to get a copy of it from an ANti-Masonic website but the Mod would not let me have it. Dr. Gary Leazer wrote a book on the issue called Fundimentlism and Freemasonry you can find some of the material in it.

 

[Gina B]

It seems as if this thread has served it's purpose so the thread will close. Thanks for all the responses, a lot of you have been very helpful with the knowledge you've shared.
Gina