Freewill bites the dust

[Allan]

Their fallen nature is shown in their behavior, whether they know it or not.

Yes but SIN is so called to those who WILLINGLY choose to opose revealed truth. Read Romans 1

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

SIn or unrighteousness is attributed/imputed only to those who reject the truths God has revealed to them. All men sin due to their sin nature, but it is not imputed to/against them until they understand truth and willingly defy it, change it, or corrupt it - as says the scriptures


>>>Edited In<<<
This also proves that God does make a person sin or go after evil intents as it states God gave them up to their lusts; Not that He cause them to pursue them. They rejected and corrupted the Truth God revealed and He let them go their way for His purpose of damantion (the wrath of God to be revealed against unrighteousness - endured the vessels of wrath) - That is Pauline.

 

[Allan]

Just for fun here is the rest of the chapter.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[J.D.]

Webdog, the fact that I'm not willing to condemn the notion that God is the author of sin does not mean that I am willing, on the other hand, to defend it. And the passage you quoted is one of the reasons that I'm not convinced that God is active in reprobation. My question on the issue concerns the nature of Satan's "fall" from perfection, if there was such an event. I can see a secondary cause in the fall of Adam, but I can't see one in Satan.

As for willing sin, I would think that the ignorant are even more "willing" to sin than an informed person. They sin, whether they know it or not.

 

[johnp.]

SIn or unrighteousness is attributed/imputed only to those who reject the truths God has revealed to them.

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
PS 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Why do babies die Allan if it isn't due to the wages of sin?

All men sin due to their sin nature, but it is not imputed to/against them until they understand truth and willingly defy it, change it, or corrupt it - as says the scriptures

Are you saying there is an age of responsibility?

john.

 

[Blammo]

Romans 5:13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Blammo.

RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

We are sinners condemned in Adam and if there was no law then the condemnation stands and all who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law. Rom 2:12. Which means they will be judge according to the record of their conscience. Rom 2:15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

The judgement day is not a day for guilt or innocence to be established but for the punishment due for one's sins, guilt is us.

Why do babies die?

john.

 

[Blammo]

Why do babies die?

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Because of Adam's sin.

 

[johnp.]

God knows who will do what and who will go where when they die regardless of whose choice it was.

Can anyone resolve the contradiction of God not wanting anyone to go to Hell and the fact that He creates men that He knows are going there regardless of whose choice it was?

If God is not willing any go to Hell why did He not give a fallen angel solution as well?

Did He not know they were going to fall before He created them? If He is not willing any go to Hell why create it in the first place? To give free will a chance? Is free will worth all those everlasting deaths? If He is not willing any go to Hell why did He create the angels that fell and not find a means for their sins to be washed away? Could it be that He is willing?

I always have a problem with the evil that befalls children.(reformed)

That, basically, comes from your "deterministic" Calvinist beliefs, I'm afraid.

How is it more reasonable to think of God as good giving us free will when He creates a man He knows will do terrible things to children against their will while He doesn't interfer with the man's will at all? How is that better than the nasty old mean Calvinist God? At least God is not indifferent as the free will God appears skypair.

God WAS in perfect control, as you believe He still is, when Adam obeyed.

Was! Haha! God is not in perfect control yet you say He is Sovereign? Haha! So what's with the pervert attacking a little one skypair? Explain why your God just sits and watches and then tell us that is better than Him being in control. Is He too weak to stop the man? Is the man's will more important than the child's? Why doesn't an all loving God do something about it? Love always protects doesn't it.

john.

 

[Allan]

As for willing sin, I would think that the ignorant are even more "willing" to sin than an informed person. They sin, whether they know it or not.

Ignorance - commiting sin without knowing it IS sin.

When is that action ACTUALLY considered a sin UNTO them?
Here as a People:

Lev 4:13 ¶ And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which should not be done, and are guilty;
Lev 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

Here as a Ruler:

Lev 4:22 ¶ When a ruler hath sinned, and done [somewhat] through ignorance [against] any of the commandments of the LORD his God [concerning things] which should not be done, and is guilty;
Lev 4:23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:

Still following the previous example of the people.

All other man (common men)

Lev 4:27 ¶ And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth [somewhat against] any of the commandments of the LORD [concerning things] which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
Lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned

They can only of a sin offering for something that they KNOW is sin or unrighteous or rejecting truth for a lie. It ALL misses the ascribed mark God has set.

Act 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did [it], as [did] also your rulers.
Act 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Note Peter is showing them the sin they did not know they commited and was commanding them (as God stated in Lev) to repent and turn.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

1Pe 1:14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance

1Pe 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

Making them accountable by revealing truth and silencing their excuses.

 

[Allan]

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
PS 58:3 Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.

Yes John, as I stated we are all born with a sin nature that is seperated from God by His divine Judgment from the Garden through Adam to us. I still note you don't post the whole of your scriptures though...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Since you try to state that ALL men are condemned to damnation because of the act of one man, then by virtue of your own exegesis you also MUST contend that ALL men through that act of one man have been made righteous. That would be open theism and a definate heresy.

Now in light of the next verse many are condemned and many are made righteous, which again conflicts with your view that God created some for Hell (before sin was even a concept) and others for glorification. And yet the scriptures state that sin came to man due to man and damnation upon man who bears the resposibility for his action. But that is another story for a later time...

Why do babies die Allan if it isn't due to the wages of sin?

Due to one aspect of a two fold curse. Physical and spiritual death came upon man. The physical death due to a corruptable body MUST die until it is made incorruptable at the resurrection. All badies do not go to hell and I believe the scriptures contend all unborn, babies, children, and mentally infirm will be saved.

Are you saying there is an age of responsibility?

Yes.
Since scripture states a person MUST be able to know they have sinned and be able to believe the truth revealed it by implication if not explicitly showing they MUST have at least a general apptitude in understanding or else sin is not imputed to them. Scripture call it ignorance, it is an interesting study - look it up.

 

[Rippon]

Well Allan , I think "all badies" do go to Hell ! And all people who think they are goodies as well . Seriously , in Romans 5:12 "ALL" sinned -- including infants -- even those who did not break a command . You will have to provide scriptural support for your contention that all babies will not go to Hell .

You will also have to submit a biblical reference or two that speaks of an age of accountability . You'll be turning pages forever though -- it's not in Holy Writ .

 

[Allan]

Can anyone resolve the contradiction of God not wanting anyone to go to Hell and the fact that He creates men that He knows are going there regardless of whose choice it was?

Yes, actually - since there is no contradiction.

God does not desire anyone to go to hell just as He does not delight or take pleasure in the death of the wicked. However God purposed to create mankind to and for His glory and that purpose stands, whether to glorification toward them that beleive or damnation to them that reject His truth. All men were purposed to be but the Lord takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked in spite of the glory of God it establishes.

If God is not willing any go to Hell why did He not give a fallen angel solution as well?

God is not willing that MAN go into hell. Jesus stated "...Hell was created for the devil and his angels...", NOT that it was created them and man. We know the reason the angels did not get a solution since scripture speaks to this. They say God and was in His presence and yet they rebelled, so there was nothing for them. Man was not as the angels were and therefore not privy to seeing and knowing God fully as they did. Hebrews speaks to it, about having tasted, known, and seen, and then fall away - there is no second chance!

Did He not know they were going to fall before He created them? If He is not willing any go to Hell why create it in the first place? To give free will a chance? Is free will worth all those everlasting deaths?

God thinks so.

If He is not willing any go to Hell why did He create the angels that fell and not find a means for their sins to be washed away? Could it be that He is willing?

Already answered it above.

How is it more reasonable to think of God as good giving us free will when He creates a man He knows will do terrible things to children against their will while He doesn't interfer with the man's will at all?

Have you not read that God (The Holy Spirit) restrains the extent of what the evil COULD have been and is? Man is resposible for his sin as man choose to sin. God allows things into our lives for His purpose but also withholds things in the same manner.

Why doesn't an all loving God do something about it? Love always protects doesn't it.

Funny, I think Israel, even the very elect in the OT thought the same thing when they were being revaged, killed, raped, murdered and sold into slavery because God withdrew his protection from them to be conquered due to the nations unbelief and rebellion. And yet God says this to them repeatedly, over and over...If you will turn from your wicked ways...if you will come to me...if you will repent and cry out to me...return to me...

 

[Allan]

Well Allan , I think "all badies" do go to Hell !

Yes well, you are permitted by God to believe whatever lie you wish.

Seriously , in Romans 5:12 "ALL" sinned -- including infants -- even those who did not break a command .

Ok, now that Rippon is trying to Rip scriptures from context, let us look at the context.

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Death here is physical death, Rippon - NOT spiritual. This says that sin was NOT imputed where there is no law.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

But in order to actually understand what the author is saying you have to look at what precedes this chapter. Go back to chapter one and look:

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

They are called unrighteous or unsaved by God because they reject His revealed truth. I don't know about you but in order to something that I KNOW is contrary to God I have to have the mental compasity to comprehend and choice against it willingly KNOWING it will be judged! A child, infant, baby, unborn, and mentally infirm CAN NOT do these things. Chapter 2 continues in the same language concerning the wicked and sinners being those who willingly disobey, and so does 3 and 4. Oh, and that would mean that contextually 5 is using that same premise.

Sin that was not known of could not be atoned for, but once that sin was know THEN it was to be atoned for. refer back to post #229.

You will have to provide scriptural support for your contention that all babies will not go to Hell .

Since you have such a great knowledge of Calvinists I will let you simply research their works on the subject. MacAuthur, Spurgeon, Edwards, that will get you started as they contend the same as I and at the very least that most babies will not go to hell.

The age of accountability is implied just as Trinity is in the scripture. Is the Trinity as false doctrine because it is not specifically said in the Holy Writ?? I thought not. I will make it easy as I have been on here for quite some time tonight. God commands all men everywhere to repent, right? and repent means what? Lexiconally it is to :
1. Change one mind
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

And another quick scripture:
as cited above in Rom 1. They Knew the truth and rejected it.

Age simply refers to the mental developement at which point a person can comprehend or understand the things of the word of God. For the word of God is like a lamp, it is a light and it is through the word that faith comes forth.

Let the little children come unto me for of such is the kingdom of God.

I can keep going as there are many scriptures that corroberate my view (David and his son that died, example) but it is a useless banter with you, brother. Have a good night or day :laugh:

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yes well, you are permitted by God to believe whatever lie you wish.

Ok, now that Rippon is trying to Rip scriptures from context, let us look at the context.

Death here is physical death, Rippon - NOT spiritual. This says that sin was NOT imputed where there is no law.

But in order to actually understand what the author is saying you have to look at what precedes this chapter. Go back to chapter one and look:

They are called unrighteous or unsaved by God because they reject His revealed truth. I don't know about you but in order to something that I KNOW is contrary to God I have to have the mental compasity to comprehend and choice against it willingly KNOWING it will be judged! A child, infant, baby, unborn, and mentally infirm CAN NOT do these things. Chapter 2 continues in the same language concerning the wicked and sinners being those who willingly disobey, and so does 3 and 4. Oh, and that would mean that contextually 5 is using that same premise.

Sin that was not known of could not be atoned for, but once that sin was know THEN it was to be atoned for. refer back to post #229.

Since you have such a great knowledge of Calvinists I will let you simply research their works on the subject. MacAuthur, Spurgeon, Edwards, that will get you started as they contend the same as I and at the very least that most babies will not go to hell.

The age of accountability is implied just as Trinity is in the scripture. Is the Trinity as false doctrine because it is not specifically said in the Holy Writ?? I thought not. I will make it easy as I have been on here for quite some time tonight. God commands all men everywhere to repent, right? and repent means what? Lexiconally it is to :
1. Change one mind
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins

And another quick scripture:
as cited above in Rom 1. They Knew the truth and rejected it.

Age simply refers to the mental developement at which point a person can comprehend or understand the things of the word of God. For the word of God is like a lamp, it is a light and it is through the word that faith comes forth.

Let the little children come unto me for of such is the kingdom of God.

I can keep going as there are many scriptures that corroberate my view (David and his son that died, example) but it is a useless banter with you, brother. Have a good night or day :laugh:

Hey brother. If you look a little closer at what Rippon put in quotation marks, you will see that it says "badies". I think he is making a play on words with you, from your error in spelling....lol

 

[Allan]

Hey brother. If you look a little closer at what Rippon put in quotation marks, you will see that it says "badies". I think he is making a play on words with you, from your error in spelling....lol

:laugh: I was so tired this morning, I didn't even notice.


Rippon ON THAT NOTE - I agree! And I appologize for the misconstrued thought place toward your "all badies" comment in the first line of my posting to you.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Allan.

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I use the verse to prove God bound all over to sin nothing more. I take it as given that the 'all men' represents Jews and Gentiles because that is what the passage is about. Most believe everyone is a sinner and not everyone is saved.

God has bound all men over to disobedience... is the only part of the verse I have an interest in proving. If anyone says that means everyone is saved because it also says so that he may have mercy on them all so what? Does that mean God has bound all men over to disobedience... is true? Yes. If one knows the truth that all men, so called, are not saved then does God has bound all men over to disobedience... become untrue? In which way?

I'm not trying to prove anything but the fact that God has bound all men over to disobedience...

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Again, my sole purpose is to show how man is not free but his condition is determined by another's sin, nothing else. Does the fact that all men are not saved mean that not all men came into condemnation?

...then by virtue of your own exegesis you also MUST contend that ALL men through that act of one man have been made righteous.

I have done no explanation of this passage have I? I have said that this verse says God caused us to sin and that's all I've said I think.
If you can show how the second part of these verses deny the first parts I'd like to hear it. Just because I take the 'all men' of the first part to mean everyman born that doesn't follow that I believe the 'all men' of the second part to mean the same number. That you have imagined.

And yet the scriptures state that sin came to man due to man and damnation upon man who bears the resposibility for his action. But that is another story for a later time...

Rom 5:18 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I don't really understand your point. If you mean we are condemned through the disobedient Adam that was because God caused Adam to sin. If you mean that we are made sinners by Adams action that is so but being sinners isn't what condemns us, Adam did.

john.

 

[Bismarck]

MB, when I repented and put my faith in Christ, I was certainly willing to do so. I wanted to be saved. It was certainly me who was consciously putting my faith in Christ. But where did my "want to" come from? Did it come from my own wisdom, intellect, goodness? To me, that is the basic question. Everyone on all sides of the debate agree that anyone who wants to be saved will be saved. The question is: Where does that "want to" originate?

Andy T. & everybody,

Please consider this:

Let us even suppose that your "want to" truly came from you. It truly came from your heart, your mind, your soul.

But now answer this:

Just exactly where did all of you come from?? Who made your heart/mind/soul?? Did you? Did you breathe yourself into being, did you say, "let me exist", and you poofed into existence?

Correct Answer: No –- Almighty God made you, all of you; you are God's gift to you

Almighty God made this universe. God made the Earth. God made your parents. And all the fertile soils that nourish all the fertile crops that fed your parents and kept them alive so they could have you. Etc etc etc ad infinitum.

You have heard the saying, "Dance with those who brought you". Well, Jimbo might money in your pocket everytime you do what he says. But Almighty God made you, and Jimbo, and everything that allows you to anything at all, much less work. Everywhere you look, you're seeing something that God created. Maybe human hands fashioned it in some way... but at the end of the day, Almighty God made all the atoms. And even more wondrous still, God gave the atoms in you life. And even more wondrous still, God made your life in His image (Gen 1:27)!!

You have heard the saying, "Dance with those who brought you". Well, on that account, it is your God-given DUTY to obey God (!). Come on, soldier, do what your CO says now, son!

In short, your "want to" might truly be yours... for all that possessive "your" is worth.

But you are God's. You wouldn't have a heart / mind / soul to bring into alignment with God's Will save by the infinite Grace of Almighty God (!). That life God gave you is an infinite gift:

For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his life? Or what shall a man give in return for his life?
Matthew 16:26 (ESV)​

In short, you "having" (possessing) Free Will in no way conflicts with the stunningly crushing fact that every beating of your heart, every breath in your lungs is (another!) infinite g-i-f-t from above.

"Your" Free Will is God's Divine Gift to you (Gen 1:27).

You wouldn't do aught without God's prior allowance.

Think about it.

The Duty of every True Believer is to show proper gratitude and respect to He who put the whole show on the road -- and, therefore, to do what He says, how He says, when He says, no questions asked. Or is your life, even all of this Universe we dwell in, insufficient gift for your royal highness?? (sarcastic) Therefore we see that sin (not following God's commands) is infinite ingratitude. One last time: Jimbo will give you $10 if you mow his lawn, and you'll be grateful... but God gives you 100,000 heartbeats a day, and you won't give Him respect?? (sarcastic)

Sin is infinite ingratitude. It is mis-using the infinite gifts God gave you. God put you on this Earth to fulfill a mission -- ie, your Christian Duty. You can try to buck God's authority, like a military fighter pilot who goes AWOL with "his" (taxpayer funded) Government Issue assigned fighter-jet. But sooner or later, your sins will catch up to you. That is the promise of Scripture:

Punishment for Disobedience (Leviticus 26)

14"But if you will not listen to me and will not do all these commandments, 15if you spurn my statutes, and if your soul abhors my rules, so that you will not do all my commandments, but break my covenant, 16then I will do this to you: I will visit you with panic, with wasting disease and fever that consume the eyes and make the heart ache. And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. 17I will set my face against you, and you shall be struck down before your enemies. Those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee when none pursues you. 18And if in spite of this you will not listen to me, then I will discipline you again sevenfold for your sins, 19and I will break the pride of your power, and I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze. 20And your strength shall be spent in vain, for your land shall not yield its increase, and the trees of the land shall not yield their fruit.​

"Your" free will in no way infringes upon the ultimate sovereignty of Almighty God.

 

[johnp.]

Hello Bismarck, nice to meet you.

You wouldn't do aught without God's prior allowance.

That we are here proves our free will is illusion. I was not consulted.

You can try to buck God's authority, like a military fighter pilot who goes AWOL with "his" (taxpayer funded) Government Issue assigned fighter-jet. But sooner or later, your sins will catch up to you. That is the promise of Scripture:

If our free will is under coercion we are not free. I don't remember signing up to anything. I don't remember asking for all these gifts, they were assigned to me without my permission. Is one obliged to return favours imposed on one?

"Your" free will in no way infringes upon the ultimate sovereignty of Almighty God.

Then you are saying we are not free.

If it is true that man has free will why does the bible say ...They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. ?
And since men are blind why put something in our path? ... "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."

Jesus causes men to stumble and makes men fall but only those destined to.

john.

 

[Allan]

Rom 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

I use the verse to prove God bound all over to sin nothing more. I take it as given that the 'all men' represents Jews and Gentiles because that is what the passage is about. Most believe everyone is a sinner and not everyone is saved.

God has bound all men over to disobedience... is the only part of the verse I have an interest in proving. If anyone says that means everyone is saved because it also says so that he may have mercy on them all so what?

So are you contending that the ALL here is refering to all men and not Israel. If you read the context of the passages surrounding it you will find that Paul is dealing here with the Jews and the Gentiles as a people.

Verse 30 speaks of the Gentile now being a people of faith because Israel being set aside due to unbelief.

Verse 31
31. Even so have these--the Jews.
now not believed--or, "now been disobedient"
that through your mercy--the mercy shown to you.
they (the Jews)
may also obtain mercy

Mercy always deals with Gods purpose.

and then verse 32 speaking of Him having bound them over to their disobedience...

Now, opening a more cheering prospect, he speaks of the mercy shown to the Gentiles as a means of Israel's recovery; which seems to mean that it will be by the instrumentality of believing Gentiles that Israel as a nation is at length to "look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him," and so to "obtain mercy."

Jamison-Faust comentary

Does that mean God has bound all men over to disobedience... is true?

Not according to context, for He bound over Israel as says the scriptures.

I'm not trying to prove anything but the fact that God has bound all men over to disobedience...

You can not prove it with this verse. It is not speaking of all men being bound over, but all of a group of men - Israel - that Gods mercy to the Gentiles might show itself to them and His grace bring forth salvation.

And yes the phrase '...that He might have mercy upon all" is speaking to both sets of groups and not individuals. Though the infrence can be made from either postion the fact is that by context it means only the two groups being dealt within by Paul.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Again, my sole purpose is to show how man is not free but his condition is determined by another's sin, nothing else. Does the fact that all men are not saved mean that not all men came into condemnation?

That has noting to do with being freedon of will or resposibility to truth. Everything we do affects another, but we are free to act upon the truths that have been revealed or to not act upon them.
Nope. All men are under condemnation until they believe or act in faith.

I have done no explanation of this passage have I? I have said that this verse says God caused us to sin and that's all I've said I think.

and of course you are absolutely wrong. :thumbs:

If you can show how the second part of these verses deny the first parts I'd like to hear it. Just because I take the 'all men' of the first part to mean everyman born that doesn't follow that I believe the 'all men' of the second part to mean the same number. That you have imagined.

I never said I denied any such thing. I said that is you hold to first "all" as being all mankind because of wording and sentence structure, then you must keep the same interpretation for the rest of the verse because it is the same structure and wording.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Even so - likewise or in like manner

This does not speak as to say All men are now saved but that in like manner of that previously stated by the righteousness of one (or righteous act of one) [the free gift came] among all men toward justification of life.
The act of one brought forth to all men condemnation and that act one of brought forth toward all men justification to life.

The act of one to 'all man' is the context, though one establishes that all have at present - we also find that one establishes all could have due to the act of one but not all will have.

 

[johnp.]

Allan.

which seems to mean that it will be by the instrumentality of believing Gentiles that Israel as a nation is at length to "look on Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him," and so to "obtain mercy." (Jamison-Faust comentary)

That's wrong. They are to look on Him who they pieced. Israel will be restored, those that are still surviving, on seeing Jesus at His glorious return. Luke 13:35 Look, your house is left to you desolate. I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "

Look, your house is left to you desolate... Not just those being disobedient, if you have your way, but their children and their children and their children's children are bound over until Jesus returns. Only that generation will be saved, the first for 2,000 years. And free will is where?

and then verse 32 speaking of Him having bound them over to their disobedience...

They are bound over to disobedience. You have added 'their' and it changes the meaning. Can you explain this? Do you not understand that binding over is a legal term and it means the one bound over is compelled to an action. If one is bound over one is bound to do that which one is bound over to do, sin in this case.

I see from Chambers that it is a British law.

bind someone over Brit law to make them legally obliged to do a particular thing, especially to 'keep the peace' and not cause a disturbance...

Is this understood by Americans? What have American NIV's got for that?

All men are under condemnation until they believe or act in faith.

Why are all men under condemnation? Were we there when Adam pinched the apple? We were not. We are condemned in Adam, guilt by association. It was a tree of the knowledge of good and evil and they found they were unable to do the good after partaking of it.

and of course you are absolutely wrong.

That's cool, I don't mind that but you can't prove that by changing scripture.

john.