Freewill bites the dust

I understand Andy T. If I must I will defend myself against this charge. In which way am I an hyper-Calvinist, please specify the charge?

Personal preference isn't the best way to understand scripture. That God creates men for Hell stands regardless of doctrine. The only way out is to believe God is not omniscient and then God isn't God.

Hello Allan.

As I said, like Paul was. You have no problem with it happening to Paul have you? Paul didn't believe until after Jesus revealed Himself did he? Paul suffered blindness for two days, I suffered it for 16 years. But again, 16 years later an evangelist knocked on my door and told me that I must be born again. I sent him packing but later I prayed to Jesus again and again the same result as 16 years earlier. Next day I tested it out again just to reassure myself and again I had athe same spiritual experience. I wasted 6 months trying to get that back again until I learnt that that was it.

You cannot tell me if I was born again or not man. It is the spirit of man that knows the man.
...or else it would not have taken you years to come to know Him. Where did you get this from? Where's the problem of an adopted prodigal son? Have you got God's timetable at hand? I have faith and that faith [gives me (edited out)] is the certainty that Christ died for me. I need no other comfort nor do I care what others think of me. I only tell you because I'm told to, 1 Peter 3:15.

Not so. We are saved by grace. Are we to believe before we have faith? What did you believe when you became a Christian?

You do not misunderstand. I don't believe a man can have certainty until he has certainty.

I will defend myself against the charge of heresy but the charge that I am not Christian is unprovable and irrelevant. Even the unsaved can preach and cast out demons. Respond to what I say with scripture and stop judging wrongly.

john.

 

What happened with me was that an elder from a local Church came up and he was talking about joining the Church. I had just received the knowledge that Jesus was God and had shrugged the J'w's off. I told him that I wasn't thinking of joining anything, there was no point because next week I would believe something else. He took me through several passages that told me that I had never been alone, I had always been loved and He would not forsake me or leave me and in my simple state I believed Him. I believed the scriptures and became a Calvinist without knowing it. I knew nothing until then.
I swollowed it hook, line and sinker but I understand why people think it repugnant.

john.

 

Wow!!! johnp shows up, and y'all start to come out of the closet.

You too, eh? God doesn't just allow bad things to happen, He causes them, He plans them, He is the one who came up with the idea in the first place??? So much for "the devil made me do it", now the excuse makers can actually say "God made them do it", or "God made the devil make me do it", or "God made the devil and me do it"??? Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, Joseph Duncan, etc... were all just doing what God made them do. The fact that God allowed it is absolutely true, and a hard enough reality. But you guys believe God more than allowed it, He planned it? (Don't get that confused with "planned for it", you are talking "wrote the script" and "pulled the puppet strings")

I still have not seen a GOOD answer from you "God is the author of sin" guys for this verse.

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Don't get too creative with your answers. Give it some serious and sincere thought. Don't give me a bunch of "rhema-v-logos... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah..." that I got on another thread from you know who you are.

I'm very disillusioned. I feel like I came a bit too close to "joining the dark side". Good thing johnp showed up. Must have been preordained to keep me from great error.

 

J.D., read Johnp's post #68, and compare that to historic Calvinism. It's way off base. Read James 1:13-14.

 

Blammo,

Please don't lump in Johnp's views with most other Calvinists. I agree with your objections. His views do not represent the vast majority of Calvinists.

 

Andy,

I can't help but think you and I believe the same things, and that made me start to think maybe I am calvinistic without the label. However, it is not just johnp. I saw several Calvinists rejoice when johnp returned to the BB. I had never heard of him, so I was eager to see what he had to say. The more he posted the more I thought - this is a guy they are proud of? I couldn't believe it!!!

I won't mention any names, but aside from you, there is only one other Calvinist I know of who hasn't jumped on the johnp bandwagon. I HAD great respect for a few of these guys... it's gone.

 

Again Paul was NOT SAVED until He believed. Show ONE scripture that states we are saved then we believe. I know at least THAT much Calvinism - Regenerate is NOT the same as salvation regard Calvinistic doctrine.

Yes it is regarding her infirmity but is also the established principle of Faith/Belief unto salvation.

I can go on and on. Without belief/faith there is NO salvation, period!

Paul was physically blinded and not in denial and refusal of the the Truth which was revealed to him for he obeyed the Lord without question. I'm not sure what you are speaking to when you state:

I (personally) have never met a person who searched for some spiritual experience to show they were saved. I confess I have no clue as to what you are refering to. When God saved me I knew it from that moment forward and everyone I know who professes Christ and bears the marks of a life changed toward Christ states that same thing. Granted everyones experience is different (concerning emotion, and thought) but the moment of salvation is undeniably unquestionable as to when that act happened in you. It is the new birth and as unmistakable as knowing who you once were and who you are now!

Again, huh?? If you mean you became regenerate (God began dealing with you) I have no problem. I said you were NOT saved for there was no faith/belief just an experience as per your own words. According to scripture you must believe in order to be saved. Yes, it is by Gods grace it even comes nigh unto you but GOD Himself decreed that man must believe in order to be saved.

I understand that, and your faith is the means God has established for salvation to be imparted to His own via His grace through which salvation comes.

Faith and belief are the same thing, the same word even though one can be a noun at times and a verb another. Yes we are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Faith is the vehicle through which salvation is imparted. Without it you have dead works. At my conversion God showed me that I was a sinner under His wrath and condemnation, and that He was righteous (perfect) or better the very standard of righteousness I fell short to and was condemned before. And I was convicted of the judgment to come upon me. I cried out for the mercy of Christ because I believed that what Christ did, He did for me. Not because I deserved but because He willingly gave to anyone who saw their need IN Him. I cried for mercy and mercy in the light of God grace.

And how do you have certainty??

You can cease you martyr complex as no one has called you a heretic, stated you are speaking heresy, or EVER claimed you are not a Christian - herein this thread.

How can one cast out demons who has not the authority of Christ to do such? Does not a Kingdom divided against itself fall?? If you are refering to the passage which concerns telling those people "Depart from me, I never knew you", you will note that scripture does not say they DID cast out demons but THEY proclaimed this is something they did though never actually acknowledge by Christ Jesus throught who they said they cast them out.

 

No one has said it was the Father Blammo. Simple enough? I still have not seen a GOOD answer from you "God is the author of sin" guys for this verse. Whether it is a good answer or just an answer it does answer the point. Romans 11:32 actually says that God bound all men over but you will not have it. Would you have scripture contradict itself rather than think that God is the Author of sin?
PR 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. KJV.
PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. NIV.
I have a tendency to go with the NIV version rather than the KJV. In this the Lord takes all the credit for the things you say and you will get the blame if there is any. In the KJV even the thoughts are God's thoughts first.

He is right man. I am a determinist and others are indeterminists. They believe the same thing Arminians and free willers believe in that they deny God's Sovereignty. (Ok, they were friends.)

We can be friends without agreeing. They are my friends in disagreement, most anyway. My views reflect scripture as it should be reflected and theirs is the compromise.

You think my bandwagon has others on it? Why do I feel so alone then? I believe in TULIP same as them. There will be many points of contact with main stream Calvinism but the crux of the problem is the same with my friends as with the free willers. In the end they claim man's will leads him to Hell whereas I believe God does will in the man to cause him to attain the set punishment for himself but condemnation to Hell came before sin.
RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
That is double predestination without man's acts being taken into account.

john.

 

Read the old testament sometime. God repeatedly comes right out and says He raises up the tyrants, outrageously cruel and merciless people to come against Israel and punish Israel for its disobedience. Think about that when you think of someone like Hitler.

The problem with your reasoning is that it is based on a false emotional premise. It presumes that if God planned for Hitler to be who he was and do what he did, then Hitler was just an innocent puppet whose strings were pulled by God. If it weren't for God, he would have been a nice guy, right? No, Hitler did what he did of his own will, but would not have done it if it were not foreordained by God. That's the tension between predestination and personal responsibility. And the answer to that tension is addressed very clearly in Romans:

What may not be clear from the above is that all the vessels [men] God makes deserve wrath and destruction, but some He endures with great patience and plans wrath and destruction for them, and others He shows mercy and plans to make known to them the riches of his glory. The fact that nobody DESERVES mercy is made more clear by the fact that God has bound all over to disobedience.

 

That is just taking scripture from its context that it might support you pretext. The chapter is dealing with election NOT salvation and it is specifically dealing with Israels election. Election here is NOT to salvation but to purpose. "IF" you will maintain context you will see not all not those who claim decendants from Abraham are Israelites. This is why scirpture states specifically, that in Issac shall thy seed be called. What is the problem there...Ishmael was actaully the first born and SHOULD have carried that responsiblity but scritpure states that Isaac was the seed of promise due to election. Election of God concering Israel was not about salvation but purpose, that through them adoption, the Law, and even Christ Himself would Come.

Just as Abrahan and Issac were the feudal heads concerning the election through whom God NATION would come...and guess who follows Issac? Yep you guessed it - Jacob. Again election is to purpose NOT salvation as they (in context just as Abraham and Issac were seen as the people through whom a Nation unto God would come) ...as they had done no wrong or sin, but that Gods election (not salvation) might stand concerning Gods PEOPLE - The Nation ISRAEL. Jacob and Esau are the heads of those whom they will bring forth. Jacob IS Israel from whom that NATION elected unto God comes. Now God could have chosen Esau cause his decendants surely were just as bad as Israels spiritual adultry, but God chose contrary to the things of man for His Purpose. Man is from God and He can choose through whom He desires to bring forth His promises. AGAIN - NOT about salvation.

Chapter 9 - Israel Historical election or purpose
Chapter 10 - Israel Present day (Pauls time) purpose with regard to their election
Chapter 11 - Israel's Future - concering the fulfillment of their election or purpose.

 

Nicholas, once again, read Johnp's post #68. To him, there is no tension, because what he describes in that post is mere puppetry on the part of God. His view is the caricature of what many non-Cals lambast mainstream Cals of believing. I for one am willing to distance myself from that view.

 

O.k., I agree that we must define what we mean by "author of sin". What I mean by it is that God is not the immediate cause of sin. Johnp disagrees (see post #68). I forget my theological terms, but there is another term for first cause or some other cause - I will call it "immediate cause once removed". In one sense, God is the 'immediate cause once removed' of all that comes to pass, since He is the one who created the universe and ordains all that comes to pass. But we cannot cross the line and claim that God is the immediate cause of sin, because the Bible is so clear that is not the case.

If Allan will permit me wavey: ) - here is good article by Piper that discusses his views, as well as J. Edwards' views.

http://www.desiringgod.org/Resource...ss_Glorious_Because_He_Ordained_that_Evil_Be/

 

What I don't think is that God is the one who makes Israel be disobedient, and then makes others punish them for what He made them do.

Right, nobody deserves mercy. My Bible says "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all". That does not say God caused their unbelief, "conluded them in" means they were already there, and He caused them to remain there. That He may have mercy upon who? All, including them.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Do you see a period after saved? Nope, not even a comma. We are saved BY grace THROUGH faith. Where does faith come from?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


I don't even know why I bother. I should just say - "This freewiller has dusted the bite". You are all fatalists, and that will not change, and I will never join you.

 

Actually I like some of Pipers works and am actaully reading over some of J. Edwards works right now. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" is one I am really going through to grasp somewhat his illistrative ability. That Man is magnificent in that area. I have such a burden for false church in America. I am preaching this Sunday, and am not so sure if the will call be back after this one. :laugh: But seriously - It is strong enough that I weep over it as I try set it order for this Sunday.

 

Johnp will have to speak for himself as to the issue of puppetry. What I interpret from what he describes in post #68 is that all things happen according to the will of God, according to His good purpose, including the fact that men sin and go to hell. I agree so far. Here's the one line that I think causes the trouble (correct me if I'm wrong):

First, I cannot argue with the fact that God is active in all men's wills to work out His purposes. The Bible says that in many places, in many ways.

The question is, does God permit or allow? That's a very tricky question, IMO. God is the first cause of all things and is surprised by nothing. For God to permit something is to foreordain it to be so, and it must therefore come to pass. So whether or not God permits/allows, to me, is a matter of semantics. I would say yes, He does permit/allow, but also that there is no other possible outcome than what God foreordains according to his will and purpose. That's a tough concept to wrap your mind around.

 

Jesus knocked Paul off his horse before Paul knew Jesus. To argue the point of salvation is not necessary is it?
AC 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."
Tell me when salvation came to Paul and what he believed to be saved.

One? Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
The trouble you have is that you are dividing things into orders. When I met Christ I believed. The two were one event to me. I saw and believed. I spoke to another knowing the other was there. When Paul met Christ he believed. A second before Christ revealed Himself to Paul Paul did not believe.

Of course it is. Being made alive is different from being dead.

God is not bound to your rules. If a person has faith then it is regarded as a possession of that person because it was a gift of God. Her certainty about Jesus made her well or Jesus did? Which?

That's a strange verse to use in support of free will Allan. The Devil can snatch away but God can't? What have I missed?

Like I said, I pass the test of being saved. I have made my calling and election sure. I did not rely on my experience but studied the word of God. My faith is in the word but my experience contributes to my certainty. My experiences do not contradict scripture. Whoever calls on the Name of the Lord will be saved. One needs nothing else and anything else is a stumbling block to the blind. Jesus died for my sins I have no charges outstanding against me. He made me free. I believed Him as I met Him.

That is true of me but I think you will find many Christians saying they do not know when they changed. Those who are born saved have other issues.

And that is works and the sin of Israel.

Cool man. The means must be secondry, the gift to believe comes before belief. How God works in a person is different as you say. My experience was that as I prayed He appeared and I believed in Jesus whereas before I prayed and during part of the prayer I didn't. I did not say the experience did not change me. The experience kept me until I was told again in God's good timing. You must be born again before you can see...

Ask and you will receive. I asked Him for it. It is God's will that we love Him and have knowledge of Him. To that end there is no limit. 1 John 5:15 And if we know that he hears us--whatever we ask--we know that we have what we asked of him.
That 'if' should not restrain a person since it means 'since' to one who believes. Ask for more faith and He is lavish with it.

I have no problem with heretic. It is one who doesn't believe in the orthodox line. It makes no one wrong in itself. I am not an orthodox Calvinist I am an uncompromising one.

The word of God does not depend on the one who speaks it but in the power of God.

That is an assumption and cannot be held as truth. Here's another. Jesus did not correct them. "You did not, I never knew you." Was not His reply.
MK 9:38 "Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us." 39 "Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, 40 for whoever is not against us is for us.
My assumption is backed up.

How's that?

john.

 

Nicholas, I have problems with pretty much the whole post of #68. I have a problem with this:

"Man's will is under constant control forever doing the bidding of God."

And this:

"Men going to Hell by their own choice causes them to be sovereign over their destinies and so God isn't Sovereign any longer."

This:

"God does not permit or allow but is active in all men's wills to work out His purposes."

And finally this:

"The reason men go to Hell is because God actively chose that for them. That God works in a man's will to be willing isn't the thing that sends men to Hell it was His choice to send them to Hell prior to their sin."

Nicholas, where you see tension, Johnp sees no tension.

 

Hello npetreley.

I have no answer to this. I do not deny that this belief leads one logically to the conviction that one is a puppet, an intelligent one mind, but the very fact that God decrees all there is makes it so anyway as you say. God's decrees are certain to come to pass. We will do as we are told.
Thunder Birds are go. But I know I am real. I see and feel as others do. I know our Father is at work in everything I see and hear and feel and smell since I believe He controls all things. Every input into me through my senses are part of God's providence to me and meant for my betterment. I observe.

john.