Freewill bites the dust

[drfuss]

It is interesting to me how various security beliefs handle freewill and/or choice. All of the beliefs listed below believe God must first draw people to Him before they can accept salvation.

To the 4/5 Point Calvinists Christians, there is no freewill in choosing salvation, but many Calvinists believe there is freewill in the extent to which one serves God.

To the Eternal Security Christians, there is freewill in choosing salvation, but no freewill in later choosing to stop trusting Christ.

To Arminius Christians, there is freewill in both choosing Christ and in later forfeiting one's salvation by stopping trusting in Christ.

To the Wesleyian Arminian Christians, there is freewill in both choosing Christ, later forfeiting one's salvation by stopping to trust Christ. There is also freewill in losing one's salvation by not repenting and being remorseful for known sins.

To the Santification/Holiness Christians, there is freewill in: choosing Christ, continuing to trust Christ, repenting and being remorseful of known sins, and in pursing the necessary holy life.

 

[GordonSlocum]

MB, when I repented and put my faith in Christ, I was certainly willing to do so. I wanted to be saved. It was certainly me who was consciously putting my faith in Christ. But where did my "want to" come from? Did it come from my own wisdom, intellect, goodness? To me, that is the basic question. Everyone on all sides of the debate agree that anyone who wants to be saved will be saved. The question is: Where does that "want to" originate?

John 1:9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
I start with this statement "enlightens every man." It is clear. It is not confussing as many passages used by Calvinist.


These verses are clear to me as well.

1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen
2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

This verse clearly tells me that I am elected because God foreknew, foresaw the Holy spirit sanctify me and cleanse me from my sin when I believed in Christ.

 

[johnp.]

Hello MB.

Why anyway, they say the same thing?

No they don't I completely disagree.

Yes they do I completely disagree.

If the will has restrictions then it isn't free is it?

Love me or go to Hell is a restriction of free will isn't it?

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

If God wanted to save all men then why does He create men that He knows will not accept Him? Why did He make Hell? Why does He want a thing He cannot have? If men don't choose Him then He does not get what He wants does He? Who sovereign now but man in his sins?

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law...

If God commands us to believe in His Son then that is a law, a condition to be met isn't it? If it is a law for us to keep then we are into works and no man will be justified by works. Belief is a work. It's a work of God to believe in His Son. John 6:29.

Not by his own belief but by the faith of Jesus Christ.

What's 'the faith of Jesus Christ' mean? How can we be saved by the faith of Christ if that faith is ours?

What God knows does not predestine man at all. The reason God knows what man will do is because man does it not because God made him by His knowledge.

This is a wonder. You are hanging onto free will as if your life depended on it but it doesn't for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13. He controls your destiny and the choice of socks you wear. Even the words you speak to me come from Him. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue. Or as you might say, The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. PR 16:1. I agree the KJV is stunning here as it says not only your answers are from Him but that those thoughts you thought were yours are His as well.

Have a long think man and ask Jesus to explain it to you.

john.

 

[J.D.]

This verse clearly tells me that I am elected because God foreknew, foresaw the Holy spirit sanctify me and cleanse me from my sin when I believed in Christ.

Gordon, foreknowlege and foresight are not the same thing - not even the same word.

4275 proeido {pro-i'-do} see proorao 4308
from 4253 and 1492; TDNT - 5:381,*; v
AV - see before 1, foresee 1; 2
1) to foresee

4268 prognosis {prog'-no-sis}
from 4267; TDNT - 1:715,119; n f
AV - foreknowledge 2; 2
1) foreknowledge
2) forethought, pre-arrangement

 

[Andy T.]

Hi Andy;

How many times do you want me to answer the same querstion? If one becomes convinced they believe.
MB

No, I have asked 2 or 3 times, and you still have not answered my question. We both agree that those who believe are saved. I'm not asking how someone is saved; I'm asking why someone believes and someone else doesn't. You say only those who are convinced will believe. O.k., so let's move it back one more step - why is one man convinced and another not? Is the man that is convinced more wise or good than the man that is not convinced?

That is the question, and it is really a rhetorical question, because there is only one [Biblical] answer to it.

 

[Allan]

Then you must choose so your contention that it is all of God is false. It is a forked tongue you speak with. Faith and belief are the same thing but if you want to make them different Jesus answers you, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

If I speak with a forked tongue it is to give you double the truth you can see. It is one for each ear. Yes, you must choose as says the scriptures. But your choosing can not come for your own desires, or measuring up but from the revelation of God to man. Do you deny the scriptures? I doubt it. Then why deny mans responsibility which is a biblical doctrine? I NEVER stated that Faith and belief are not the the same, where did you get that from??
Uh, and you also take scripture ONCE AGAIN from context to establish a pre-text in place of context. The people asked

Jhn 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jhn 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Now just in case you know Greek, the tense, voice and mood for believe [pisteuo] is Aortist, Active, Subjunctive. But let us look at active and subjunctive.
Now the active voice shows the action of believing is done by the subject to whom the sentense structure defines. (I'm possitive you will agree that it is the person who does the believing, right?) But you have quite a problem when it come to the mood of the verb. Subjunctive DOES NOT mean an action done and it is settled as you ASSUME. However it is quite contrary to your assumption in that it ACTAULLY renders the meaning to of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances.
Wow, it is amazing that God could say and mean just what was writen. You emphasize certain aspects of the sentence to frame your theological pre-text but in light of examination herein we see your pre-text for proof text is out of context.
This is why we see the people say show US something that WE may believe. They got the contect right but their still had a flawed understanding of who Jesus actaully was and what He came to do.

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
No one is condemned for unbelief but men are condemned already.

I may speak with a forked tongue to double up on the truth, but my friend you speak in half truths. I noticed you only quoted HALF of the scripture, why? Could it be that the other half is of itself a refute against you.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life

Even so = in like manner. AND "unto" can also mean "for or toward".
So how scripture just lights up when you use it in context.

What's the estimation of men got to do with it? God has laid down a condition to be met. 'Believe in Jesus' is the condition. If you meet the condition then you are given the right, if you meet the condition. That is works. Congratulations on saving yourself Alan. I see you do not know yourself still.

ONce again you show your lack of understanding with regard to the scripture much less salvation. Do you deny scripture that you must believe in order to be saved. Even if God makes you beleive of which I know you do then also congradulations on saving yourself as well. For was it not YOU who believed. Then YOU saved yourself by believing! Unless of course you deny the scriptures which state in order to be saved you must beleive. But I don't know a Calvinist who denys this. I'm glad we both saved ourselves, that puts us both in the same boat. The boat that God gave us so we do not drownd in our sin and condemnation. What a Saviour of me, the recipient of His grace!

RO 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men...
Don't you like that? Do you think this is an infringment on our human rights, our free will?
To be condemned for a thing one did is a fair cop but to be condemned because Adam pinched an apple gets your goat don't it? I mean what chance have we got if Adam blew it?

Wow, you really need to study the scriptures. Yes, Adam as our head of Humanity passed to us God would pass on to us what he himself would obtain. However the All in Adam also correlatates to the same as All men in the same condition would have done exactly the same thing and thus ALL MEN were in Adam doing what Adam did. So I guess there is no infrigment since I would have done the same. Sorry.

But besides that, AGAIN (you do make a habit of this) you half the scripture so as not reveal the whole counsil of God.

"...even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life."

Don't you like that? God through the righteousness of Christ to ALL MEN toward justification of life. Wow agian God shows His great love toward sinners whom Christ came to save. Gets your goat don't it, but please don't let it. Take scritpure for what it says.

 

[Allan]

Wow, you really need to study the scriptures. Yes, Adam as our head of Humanity passed to us God would pass on to us what he himself would obtain. However the All in Adam also correlatates to the same as All men in the same condition would have done exactly the same thing and thus ALL MEN were in Adam doing what Adam did. So I guess there is no infrigment since I would have done the same. Sorry.

I need to re-write the embolden part.

Yes, Adam as the head of humanity passed on to us (his decendants) that which he himself obtained.

 

[Sularis]

Actually - I liked the breaking down of free will into various viewpoints - but yer not quite accurate - there's a buncha of Eternal Security folks that believe we have the free will before and after - but like a iron-clad contract no matter how much I will to get out - I can't - I can still be desirous of escaping - but I lack the power to do so.

Much like salvation the ability for faith lies dormant within us - until God awakens it - God if He so chooses to could let us out of the contract - and in fact He may choose to - but I doubt it.

 

[johnp.]

...faith lies dormant...

If faith lies dormant within us Sularis why do we need to receive it as a gift? Eph 2:8-9.

john.

 

[skypair]

MB, when I repented and put my faith in Christ, I was certainly willing to do so. I wanted to be saved. It was certainly me who was consciously putting my faith in Christ. But where did my "want to" come from? Did it come from my own wisdom, intellect, goodness? To me, that is the basic question. Everyone on all sides of the debate agree that anyone who wants to be saved will be saved. The question is: Where does that "want to" originate?

Hi Andy,

Here's the thing -- a Calvinist couldn't choose between an orange from an apple for breakfast without God telling him which to choose! :laugh: Basically, man does nothing by his own will. God alone has the power of your choices.

If you describe it that way, then everything a man chooses, God wills him to choose -- even sin.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

Summary of this and so many other threads for those who don't have time to read every post:

Calvinists: We do not choose God of our own free will. We do have our own will, but our will is bent away from God. Only after God changes are hearts and opens our eyes are we willing to believe.

Free-willers: If what you say is true, then we're all robots and God controls everything we do, including sin.

 

[skypair]

Andy

So why do some believe and others don't? Do the ones who believe possess some superior intellect, wisdom or goodness to believe rightly? If it all comes down to their choice, then they have reason to boast over others who do not choose Christ.

Let's leave the false issue of "boasting" out of it. Calvinists connect "boasting" with "works" in that passage but believing, according to Rom 4:5 ("But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him..."), believing is NOT works.

So why does one choose and another not? It's not just belief. Even 2 can believe but one "draw back" (Heb 10:38-39). It is the one who is CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8) and doesn't reject that conviction, who will receive faith. One might actually say it is the one who sees himself as worse than all others who will readily receive salvation! The "boasting" issue is a "red herring," Andy.

skypair

 

[MB]

Hello MB.

Why anyway, they say the same thing?



Yes they do I completely disagree.



Love me or go to Hell is a restriction of free will isn't it?

Yes it is but it does not restrict a voluntary will. We voluntarily submit to the righteousness of God. We aren't just saved against our willingness to not be saved.

If God wanted to save all men then why does He create men that He knows will not accept Him?

Men today are procreated. Adam and Eve were created.
Your parents are responsible for bringing you in to the world. It was there choice not God's. Or maybe there accident. God gave us the organs to produce offspring.

Why did He make Hell?

Hell and sin are both consequences of sin. Sin was caused as was hell by the Law. In order that there be rules there must be consequence.

Why does He want a thing He cannot have? If men don't choose Him then He does not get what He wants does He? Who sovereign now but man in his sins?

It seems your definition of Sovereignty is absolute control. Sovereignty is the authority to control. Our wills have no side effects on His Sovereignty.
If God controlled everything then He is responsible for ever thing even our sins. He would be responsible for all the abortions and child molesting that go on in the world. All the murders and and Bill Clintons of the world. There is no escaping it. Control means responsibility. The fact that there are Laws given us by God proves that the Law is all the control man ever had concerning his actions. There is not one bit of evidence that God controls everything as described in your idea of Sovereignty.

If God commands us to believe in His Son then that is a law, a condition to be met isn't it? If it is a law for us to keep then we are into works and no man will be justified by works. Belief is a work. It's a work of God to believe in His Son. John 6:29.

Your problem here is that God did not command men to believe in Him.

What's 'the faith of Jesus Christ' mean? How can we be saved by the faith of Christ if that faith is ours?

We aren't saved by our faith although we are saved with out it. We have to have our faith to put on the righteousness of Christ. The new man is something we put on.
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This is a wonder. You are hanging onto free will as if your life depended on it but it doesn't for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. Php 2:13.

This is in the Christian. When we are saved we surrender our will to His. You first need to prove that this verse is speaking of the natural man. It isn't according to context.

He controls your destiny and the choice of socks you wear. Even the words you speak to me come from Him. PR 16:1 To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the LORD comes the reply of the tongue.
Or as you might say, The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD. PR 16:1. I agree the KJV is stunning here as it says not only your answers are from Him but that those thoughts you thought were yours are His as well.

In the believer only and only then if the believer does't reject the leading of the Spirit.

Have a long think man and ask Jesus to explain it to you.

john.

I have thought long and hard and I still follow Him not your ideas.

MB

 

[Blammo]

One might actually say it is the one who sees himself as worse than all others who will readily receive salvation!

Amen, Skypair!!!

Luke 18:11-14 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

 

[J.D.]

So a lost, God-hating, prideful, boasting man can be saved if he humbles himself, right? Now just how is he going to do that if he is a lost, God-hating, prideful, boasting man?

Can God save a proud man? Can God change a proud man into a humble man? If so, how does God change him? Can he be saved before or after God changes him? If he can change on his own, he doesn't need grace, right?

Salvation is of God, but perhaps some greek grammatical construction will indicate otherwise. I can always tell when synergists are feeling desparate. They start speaking in tongues.

 

[Blammo]

So a lost, God-hating, prideful, boasting man can be saved if he humbles himself, right? Now just how is he going to do that if he is a lost, God-hating, prideful, boasting man?

This is where I agree with you (to a certain extent).

I did not humble myself. God humbled me, with His word.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Can God save a proud man? Can God change a proud man into a humble man? If so, how does God change him? Can he be saved before or after God changes him? If he can change on his own, he doesn't need grace, right?

You are correct. A man can not change himself, God must do it. (See above)

Salvation is of God, but perhaps some greek grammatical construction will indicate otherwise. I can always tell when synergists are feeling desparate. They start speaking in tongues.

I was saved the same way you were saved. God did it.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Andy T.]

So why does one choose and another not? It's not just belief. Even 2 can believe but one "draw back" (Heb 10:38-39). It is the one who is CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit (John 16:8) and doesn't reject that conviction, who will receive faith. One might actually say it is the one who sees himself as worse than all others who will readily receive salvation! The "boasting" issue is a "red herring," Andy.

So the one who does not reject such conviction is lucky enough to have a humble disposition to have faith and be saved?

You know, I've heard many times the criticism against Unconditional Election is that it makes the recipients of such election as just plain "lucky" to be chosen. With your system I can make the same charge - the ones humble enough to not reject the Spirit's conviction and have faith are certainly lucky to have that humble disposition within themselves in the first place.

Man, I'm sure glad that I was humble enough to be saved!

 

[Sularis]

Answer

To answer your question - faith isnt the gift in Ephesians 2:8-9

The subject and gift of the verse - being saved - I mean come on - proper English please! - I mean look at the ye it ties to the yourself - and what word is beside ye? SAVED

and CONTEXT - I mean Holy Mary Mother of God (who I dont venerate since she's a mere mortal and has no salvatory or gracious effects) - the whole passage is talking about salvation, and you one off it to get faith.

if you said grace - an argument could be made linguistically, logically, and Biblically - but faith you just shot yer argument in the foot.

Look at the next chapter Ephesians 3:2,7,8

Grace is probably the stronger of the two - but I still lean towards being saved since the linguistically stronger argument points that way if you proof-text - and I love proof-texting

 

[skypair]

So the one who does not reject such conviction is lucky enough to have a humble disposition to have faith and be saved?

Look -- put all the "spin" on it you like. That's NOT an intelligible argument.

With your system I can make the same charge - the ones humble enough to not reject the Spirit's conviction and have faith are certainly lucky to have that humble disposition within themselves in the first place.

How do you make it out that we ALL don't have that "disposition within ourselves??" You know what you are doing? You're running in circles. If it's not pride, it's our humility that is our error.

Face the facts for once, will ya? God calls ALL people to Him by His Spirit. Some respond -- some can't help but think of SELF and say no to God, at least for now. Suppose you "hear" God 10 times and don't respond. Does that mean you are not "elect?" Then the 11 time you respond. So not you ARE "elect," right? Election hinges on response -- not on pride or humility or "forechosen" or anything else.

skypair

 

[Keith M]

Predestination bites the dust

Summary of this and so many other threads for those who don't have time to read every post:

Calvinists: We do not choose God of our own free will. We do have our own will, but our will is bent away from God. Only after God changes are hearts and opens our eyes are we willing to believe.

Free-willers: If what you say is true, then we're all robots and God controls everything we do, including sin.

Good summary!

The last time I read John 3:16 it didn't say "Whoever God predsetined" shall not perish...

Does it still read that way? (Reaches for his Bible)

Lessee...Ah, there it is!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. NKJV

How 'bout an older version? Lessee...

For God so loveth the worlde yt he hath geven his only sonne that none that beleve in him shuld perisshe: but shuld have everlastinge lyfe. Tyndale New Testament (1526)

And for good measure just to make sure we got it right, how 'bout one of those new-fangled versions? Lessee...

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. ESV

Nope! Predestination isn't there either. No one has added it to Scripture. Or did all the translators of all those versions just got it wrong?

Sorry, folks, there are just too many "whoever" verses in the Bible (whatever version you choose) for me to fall for the ol' predestination thing! To take it to its ultimate conclusion, if God predestined salvation as it is often preached, then there would have been no need for Christ to have died on the cross.

It isn't free will that bites the dust when examined in light of the Bible's teachings, but predestination.