Freewill bites the dust

[johnp.]

According to you, he's only bringing his complaints the way God is making him.

That's right webdog. I am aware of that. He commands the state to execute murders but it's the Lord that takes away.

Are you saying you don't like what God is bringing?

I do not like child-molestors and I tell Him so. What's the problem with that, He made me to after all. I'm sure Job didn't like what God was bringing to him but he never blamed himself or Satan. He had a go at God.

john.

 

[johnp.]

Hello UnchartedSpirit.

but i really don't understand anything you say.

You are not alone man.

i've never been exalted or even acknowledged until now, and I feel you're under the influence that you are God...

Is there a family resemblance ? Cool.

...since you behave exactly [as] God does and think exactly the way God thinks.

Great! Does that mean that nobody understands me and will not do what I say? I was beginning to wonder why I felt so neglected.

How else can God praise and bless himself if you were different from him?

Why He does so don't He? From the mouths of infants even. You do understand. And why should He not praise and glory in Himself, it's either that or us mere mortals?

Maybe you just cause an echo when he shouts about how great he is....

Like looking at oneself in the mirror., we reflect Jesus.

john.

 

[johnp.]

What part of "God can and will have the final say as to what actually happens." do you not understand?

Like I said, such behaviour comes not from the Father Blammo.

What part of "God can and will have the final say as to what actually happens." do you not understand?

It's the 'can' man. He does.

Does scripture say "a man's heart deviseth his way"?

It says 'cor hominis disponet viam suam sed Domini est dirigere gressus eius' as well.
Speak English as I am uneducated and can't make sense of 500 year old words and neither can my peers.
If a man plans a thing God takes no notice and directs the man wherever He wants is what the verse says.

(Something you seem to have trouble believing. That has been my problem with you this whole time.)

So a man plans his way so what? PR 16:9 In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
JER 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

john.

 

[jmh19443]

While we are fighting over freewill, there are millions who have never heard - many right next door, down the road and across the world. Shouldn't we pool our resources to reach them with message of forgiveness and leave the bickering to those who love mental and spiritual gymnasticss

 

[mnw]

Good post JMH, and welcome to the board.

 

[Tom Butler]

While we are fighting over freewill, there are millions who have never heard - many right next door, down the road and across the world. Shouldn't we pool our resources to reach them with message of forgiveness and leave the bickering to those who love mental and spiritual gymnasticss

Nothing is keeping anyone involved in these debates from doing both. It's not an either-or thing.

Think about how this type of argument comes across. Everytime we desire to defend the an attack on Biblical truth, we should back away? We are commanded to defend the faith just as much as we are commanded to witness to the lost.

BTW, welcome to to the Baptist Board.

 

[johnp.]

Hello jmh nice to meet you.

While we are fighting over freewill, there are millions who have never heard - many right next door, down the road and across the world. Shouldn't we pool our resources to reach them with message of forgiveness and leave the bickering to those who love mental and spiritual gymnasticss

No, Jesus told me to be here. This thread has had 1,446 views, how many doors is that?

...leave the bickering to those who love mental and spiritual gymnasticss

Cool, business as usual then?

JUDE 1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

john.

 

[johnp.]

I just thought of a good one.

Free willers! Why are you not perfect? I'll assume you ain't until I hear.

I will also throw in an assumption or two for free, no charge.

You chose to be imperfect by your own free will and therefore you are in wilful sin while preaching to us.
Or.
You cannot be perfect, as much as you desire it, because your free will is not free.

john.

 

[Andy T.]

I think it was J.D. or Nicholas who asked about where did the "God is not the author of sin" defense come about. See 3.1 in the Westminster Confession of Faith:

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

I agree with the WCF here. Note that it says, "neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

A very good summary of Biblical Calvinism on this particular issue. Also note the Scripture proofs included in the WCF, so Johnp and other Hypers can't whine and say that no Scripture is provided as evidence. The Scripture is there; Johnp simply chooses to hold to his fringe interpretation that puts him outside of Biblical orthodoxy on this issue.

 

[J.D.]

While we are fighting over freewill, there are millions who have never heard - many right next door, down the road and across the world. Shouldn't we pool our resources to reach them with message of forgiveness and leave the bickering to those who love mental and spiritual gymnasticss

I love truth, so let's call this the "truth gymnasium".

"Pool resources"? You talkin ecuminical?

How you gonna set anyone free unless you know the truth which sets them free?

 

[mnw]

Robots, (as opposed to free willers) does your God fear rejection? Is that why He does not allow choice?

Does He have an inferiority complex and so demands to be loved rather than allows His creation to choose to love Him?

Would His Sovereignty be lessened if He gave His creation choice? Does a human monarch have less authority by offering a choice to his subjects?

If something dead can not choose good can something dead choose evil?

Why do those who believe there is no choice try to change those who have been predestined to be something else?

These questions have been answered by some on this board before. And they are just as acceptable to me as the explanations of what you call Free-willers are to you.

 

[johnp.]

...so Johnp and other Hypers can't whine and say that no Scripture is provided as evidence.

No scripture is offered in support of your charge against me Andy T. Why do you not offer some or stop calling me hyper?

...Biblical orthodoxy on this issue.

It is Calvinist orthodoxy I'm out of not biblical, whatever that means.

Would His Sovereignty be lessened if He gave His creation choice? Does a human monarch have less authority by offering a choice to his subjects?

Comparing God and man is futile and every king worth his salt tries as hard as he can for total control and well you know it. You have enough of them running around your streets mnw.

If something dead can not choose good can something dead choose evil?

That's a good argument. I'd say no but the Calvinists say yes. Dead means separation from God.

Why do those who believe there is no choice try to change those who have been predestined to be something else?

We do not know who is predestined for life and death. We are told to give a call so those given ears hear. We must not give the call that it is open to all but proclaim the whole counsel of God and that includes telling people that it is God that saves not men.

Why are you not perfect, mnw, if your free will is free?

john.

 

[UnchartedSpirit]

he is not perfect becasue of sin which is on the fault of him and him only.

Now my Papa clarifies whatever that Jerimiah verse to mean God directs destiny, and perhaps tendancies (DNA and all that); not choices. Your interpetation makes it appear we can still do God's will with our heads cut off or out breans extracted. This does not disrupt his sovrignity in any way, you just were addding sovrignity to yourself. Papa simplified it as this:

Just because YOU will (want to)
Doesn't mean you can;

Juest because you CAN;
doesn't mean you MAY.

(Otherwise I'm now the ruler of this planet, etc)

and

Even though YOU may; doesn't maen you can;
Even though you can; doesn't mean you will


Only God can deny you the permition to do what you can;
May" relies dolely on God. But, we sometimes choose to allow Him to impede us where he Would not normally.

Examples of free will:

Jonah
Adam & Eve
Cain
Abel
Abraham (Sacrifice of Isaac)
Noah
Moses
Joshua
Jacob
Ishmael
Hagar
Joseph's Brothers
Sampson
Saul
David
Ehud (Elud? I can't tell from his handwriting)

etc.

OK I'm done here.
It was still nice meeting you Johnp.

 

[johnp.]

Dads are great ain't they?

God's will with our heads cut off or out breans extracted.

JN 11:43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

john.

 

[mnw]

Comparing God and man is futile and every king worth his salt tries as hard as he can for total control and well you know it. You have enough of them running around your streets mnw.

God had to become Man for us to get the full revelation and have our sin debt paid. I don't believe the analogy is unreasonable. However, you did not answer the question that came before the analogy.

That's a good argument. I'd say no but the Calvinists say yes. Dead means separation from God.

I would agree, death means separation.

We do not know who is predestined for life and death. We are told to give a call so those given ears hear. We must not give the call that it is open to all but proclaim the whole counsel of God and that includes telling people that it is God that saves not men.

I don't agree with the idea that we cannot do anything but we still must do something to tell others. It just doesn't seem consistent. But that's okay, I can kind of understand this one and I don't argue it with those who hold to it. As long as you go, that's what matters.

Why are you not perfect, mnw, if your free will is free?

I never denied being perfect. But, I am not.

 

[hek1953]

:godisgood:

I'm not a scholor, so please forgive me for my poor punctuation and grammar. I do, however, love the word of God, and although I haven't been saved very many years (12), I am so grateful that His arms were not so short that He couldn't reach down in the deep mirey clay, and pull me out of the cest poools of this world before it was too late.

Most Christians believe they have to line themselves up either in the camp of the Armenians or the Calvanists when it comes to the subject of "Free Will" and/or "Pre-Destination". There are no contridictions in the word of God, but there are paradoxes in scripture. I believe that God saves some whether they are seeking Him or not (the elect/predestinated), and that others He saves under the example: Whosoever will, come and drink of the Water of Life freely.

I believe there are examples in the Bible where God called certain individuals who weren't seeking after Him, thus were called by God without their "Free Will" even being a factor, the only factor sometimes that God saves someone is that He wants to use them to bring Him the glory, and sometimes to convince doubters and other unbelievers that anyone can be saved regardless of what he or she has done, and/or is doing when God calls them. When God calls them they come immediately, there isn't always a "Free Will" reaction by the lost person involved. Example: the calling of Matthew or Levi while he was actively collecting taxes. Also the calling of Saul or Paul while he was on his way to Damascus to arrest Christians. Saul or Paul had no intention of being a follower of Christ, there was no "Free Will" involved here. God simply wanted Paul working for Him, and to confince others that anyone can be saved, including a Pharisee and a tax collector.

Some of us however, are saved because we exersize "Free Will". We fall under conviction by the Holy Spirit and over time (some immediate and for others it may take years), we come to the realization that we need a Savior. We either belive on the word of God or we reject it. When we decide, however, to submit our will to His will, then we can be saved. In Hebrews 11:1 the Bible gives the definition of faith, in Romans 10:17 the Bible tells us how we obtain faith, in Hebrews 11:6 it tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God, and finally in Ephesians chapter two it tells us, that it is not of works, but by grace (God's grace), through faith that we are saved. So the Bible doesn't contridict itself, but it does include paradoxes that we can't understand at this time, but one day we will fully understand. Just remember, if it is in God's Word as scripture, then it is truth. We won't always be able to apply logic to it, but we do have to apply our faith to it.

Amen
hek1953

 

[Andy T.]

No scripture is offered in support of your charge against me Andy T. Why do you not offer some or stop calling me hyper?

You have been provided Scripture. We just disagree with each other's interpretation on those Scriptures. It just so happens that my interpretation is in agreement with a long line of historic mainstream Calvinism - men like Spurgeon, Edwards, etc.; while yours is outside the mainstream of historic Calvinism. Thus, you get to wear the monicker, "Hyper" - meaning that you take a certain truth and twist it to where it becomes a lie, and you are no longer in bounds with others who hold that truth. It seems that you wear the badge proudly calling yourself an "uncompromised Calvinist", so I'm not sure why you object to having yourself distinguished from other Calvinists. As for me, I'll continue to stand with the "compromised" Calvinists like Spurgeon and Edwards.

 

[johnp.]

Andy T.

You have been provided Scripture.

Whether I have been given scripture enough or not you have done nothing to support your claim that I am hyper. Nothing. The only reason I'm carrying on with this is to show you that you should not make claims about people that you cannot substantiate. Hyper-Calvinists believe most of what Calvinists believe, how are they hyper is the question and you don't know me well enough to judge my position. It's just what you think and to make a charge against another needs more.

...while yours is outside the mainstream of historic Calvinism. Thus, you get to wear the monicker, "Hyper" - - meaning that you take a certain truth and twist it to where it becomes a lie, and you are no longer in bounds with others who hold that truth.

Another unfounded charge. I'm sure that if you have caught me in a lie then the vultures would now be picking my bones. That they are not is proof enough to show me I am safe.

...so I'm not sure why you object to having yourself distinguished from other Calvinists.

Because I don't cut my brothers off without first knowing what I am talking about nor do I call then liars. I believe in double predestination do you? I would like an answer to this please.

I'll continue to stand with the "compromised" Calvinists like Spurgeon and Edwards.

Sure, it's a lot better standing there than with those who believe in free will. I expect civility and respect from you as I expect it from all other Calvinists, you are outside mainstream Calvinism with your rush to judgement.

john.

 

[Andy T.]

I believe in double predestination do you? I would like an answer to this please.

I believe in reprobation - that God passes over some. I do not believe that God actively makes anyone a sinner. Of course, some classify "reprobation" as double predestination, so it comes down to defining terms.

 

[johnp.]

Thanks for answering Andy T.

I believe in reprobation - that God passes over some.

Your definition of rebrobate is wrong. Reprobation is one condemned by God and rejected by God, he is not 'passed over'.

I do not believe that God actively makes anyone a sinner. Of course, some classify "reprobation" as double predestination, so it comes down to defining terms.

Not in this case. In this case all I need do is show you what Calvin said and then you will see that me and old Calvin are both hyper-Calvinists.
By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

So if you think I'm hyper because of double predestination then you are not correct.

Anything else? I see that the passing over of those not chosen is a loss of Sovereignty. If men are free to decide their final destiny, free in the sense that they follow their own desires, then God has not decided that. This keeps God's Hands clean when He wants them dirty. That God works in a sinful will to do that which He forbids then you judge God when you say this is wrong and bad. Pharaoh should be a warning to you, he went through what he went through to show us that it is God who decides who disagrees with Him and who doesn't. God commanded Pharoah to let the people go and then He hardened his heart so that he could not. Ex 4:21.

What you think?

john.