Freewill Dilemma

Helen, that was very mean-spirited on your part. Can you tell what is in my heart? I pray for the salvation of all people. It is God's prerogative to save whom He will.

You don't believe that God will save all people, do you, Helen? But do you pray for the salvation of all people? I hope you do, but I wonder why you do since you believe it's up to the person to save himself in your scheme.

In your scheme God has done all He can do and is now helplessly standing by, wringing His hands, down on His knees begging His creature to please let Him save him.

May God have mercy on us all.

 

Helen, your words are accurate, and regardless of Ken the Spurgeonite's pleadings, you owe him no apology.
I do not believe you were mean spirited in what you said.

Kens conflicting statements are very confusing in that we do not have clear definitions of terms and he uses them interchangeably to mean at least two, and opposing things.

 

Since we now seem to have left the idea that "man can not choose BECAUSE God has foreknowlege" and are now dealing with "man can not choose because of the depravity that resulted at the fall of Adam"....

The INability that results from the fall is MORE than compensated for - by the "DRAWING of ALL Mankind" John 12:32 thus ENABLING the CHOICE that man lost at the fall. (even by Calvinist standards).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Man did not lose choice at the fall!

 

Though in fact all shall be drawn to Him either in salvation to eternal life or in eternal condemnation, all men are thus drawn. Yet to base a doctrine on this scripture is not solid enough, simply because men can be omitted and then you have what? either a universal doctrine, or all of a group, if universalism is wrong and it is, then you must concede that "all" is referring to the elect only.

Bend it however you will.

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

#1. There is no "DRAW ALL unto Me for sending them to hell" in scripture - as much as you may "need such a text". The Drawing is ALWAYS in the positive sense. As in reconciliation, redemption and salvation. "For He sent not His Son to CONDEMN the World but that the World should be saved".

#2. DRAWING ALL - so that ALL may CHOOSE life - but then ALLOWING the choice EVEN if it is a bad one - (as was in the case of Adam - sinnless and perfect YET a bad choice was made) - does not result in "ALL are saved" as you presume.

In Christ,

Bob

 

all: pas(Strong's #3956) all, every(thing,one), whole; translated as all(976), every(133), whosoever(31), everyone(28), whole(12), any(9).

So how is he twisting it? All means all! To say that it is referring to the elect only, is adding something to the Scripture which is CLEARLY not there. The verse says He will draw ALL men unto Himself.

Love in Christ,
Larry

 

This word is added in the English KJV, this is true because it is printed in italics.

If you look at the 'other' words given for 'pas' you find they are singular in connontation; hmmm yes, whosoever thirsts may come, we do not deny this; but only those who are drawn by the Spirit effectually will belief, because all others will not be regenerated.

The scripture is speaking of the definite whole of the elect; as well as all others at the Great White Throne Judgement. Thus, all shall be drawn unto Him.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

God has sovereignly laid down His plan for salvation. It is contingent on believing and trusting in Jesus for personal forgiveness of sins. God does not place the names of all people in a hat and then pull out half a hand full who He makes elect souls. God speaking throught the Psalmist says, 'For Thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all those who call on Thee.'

Believe and be saved; [Acts 2:21; Acts 16:31] reject Christ and you will be among the damned. [John 3:18 b,c; I John 2:23; 5:10,12] I say this with respect to my Lord. There is no Divine lottery as to who gets to go to Heaven and Hell.

 

God is no respector of persons (Acts 10:34, Rom 2:11, Eph 6:9, Col 3:25, 1 Pet 1:17)

So how is it that He can choose to "elect" some to salvation, and at the same time choose others to damnation, without being a respector of persons. If He is in fact a respector of persons, then dosen't that make a liar out of the written Word?

God is no respector of persons because He laid His life down for ALL of mankind. Each person will be judged according to the Blood of Jesus. If a man chooses to accept His gift of pardon, then he will inherit eternal life. If he will not, then he will recieve the punishment which he deserves, the punishment which Jesus offered to take in his place.

Love in Christ,
Larry

 

all: pas(Strong's #3956) all, every(thing,one), whole; translated as all(976), every(133), whosoever(31), everyone(28), whole(12), any(9).

</font>[/QUOTE]He is not necessarily bending the definition. What you have done is list from Strongs the different ways pas is translated. Here, however, is the actual definition of pas from Strongs:

According to Strong's, pas (refering to people) does not necessarily mean every single individual person. It can also mean "some of all types" of people. So it could mean "some of all people groups" or "some from all classes" without bending the definition.

 

Hi Everyone

I would not quote from Strong's Greek dictionary as an authority of Greek usage for a passage, since there are several meanings to Greek words depending how the original was written. The passage in question here (John 12:32), does have the Greek root word "pas" used here for "all". However, when used in this passage, it is done so in the plural masculine "pantas", and without the definite Greek article (like the english "the") . Like in Acts 22:15, Romans 5:12,18, to take some examples, it can only be referring to "all men, all mankind", which is brought out by the use of the plural, and the non-use of the definite article, where the idea of the number is indefinite. To say that it refers to "some of all people groups" or "some from all classes", is to press the meaning of the Greek too far!

 

Hi Russell 55;
You must use a different Strongs for the greek than me this is all mine says.
pas

pas

Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

I have 2. one on my computer and one on the shelf.
They both say the same thing.Maybe yours is a newer version

Romanbear

[ April 28, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: romanbear ]

 

Thank you aa0310, your post clears away the fog.

 

This is not alltogether correct. As I said in my earlier post, the adjective "pas" does have different "shades" of meanings, and Strong's is not a good place to go to for getting the meaning of a Greek word. There is evidence in Classical Greek, as well as New Testament Greek, where "pas" is indeed used to denote "a class of people". Hence in 1 Corinthians 6:18 Paul speaks of " every kind of sin also 2 Corinthians 7:1 The context and use of the word are important if the correct meaning is desired!

 

Hi aa310, did I get that right? my keyboard isn't wanting to copy and paste today

If you will mosey over to the thread I started on John 12.32 you will find I dealt with the scripture even as you desire and have found that definitely all men will be drawn to Christ because he has been lifted up from the earth, note that in this passage our Lord also brings into context judgement, that all men shall be drawn to Christ either in salvation or in judgement is the extent of the passage in question, lest we press the passage too far or spread its meaning too thin and find we have not done a justice to either God's Word nor to the atonement (reconciliation) that was accomplished at the time of Christ being lifted up. It is also significant that Christ likened himself to the brass serpent lifted up by Moses, in connection with this note that those who were smitten by the serpents were to 'look' to the brass serpent for their healing, note that those who never had the need to look, were not so commanded. Thus in our day those who never come to know their condition have no reason to look. Here enters the Holy Spirit, this carries us back farther even to Adam. When the Spirit visits man He visits his sins upon him; then man discovers his detestable condition, then he looks to the Christ of God who has been lifted up from the earth. Not before will any look to the salvation in His blood.

Hope that clears up the fog a little better.

[edited to correct mispelling of your name] still got it wrong woe is me!!!!

God bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Hi aa0310;
I'm not trying to show off my knowledge of the Greek. Truth be known I have little. You may be right. My point was the differences in Russell 55's strongs dictionary and mine. How ever if I might add the Bible was written in accent Greek not modern Greek there are differences as you probably already know. The meanings of the new version of Greek, verses the old, are somewhat different I'm told. Then there is another problem and that is have you ever seen a 2000 year old Greek dictionary?.
Romanbear

 

Actually, I don't necessarily disagree with you and I am very much aware of the inadequacies of Strongs. I used Strongs because that is what the person I was responding to used. My point is, that even with Strongs, determining exactly what "all" means is not always that simple.

I do think, however, that translating "pantas" in this particular verse as "all peoples", like the NKJV does is a legitimate translation, and may have been the point Jesus was making. I also think it has a similar meaning in Acts 22:15--meaning both Jewish people and Gentile people.

Romanbear,

I looked up the Strong's on blueletterbible.org.

 

You can do a deeper study with proper Greek/Hebrew resources at my own website www.biblecentre.net

 

Thanks for the link, I bookmarked your historical listings page, I have been looking for Schaff's work for some time...thanks a bunch from an old Hillbilly.

Bro. Dallas