Freewill or Election? Or both?

[JonC]

I had always understood the verse to indicate that there was no regret for the things that brought the guilt or sorrow because it led to salvation. But that was because of the translation I used. I’m not sure what “salvation not to be repented of” would mean except that you would never turn from that salvation.

I don’t really understand the factors involved in translating this verse – and don’t know the arguments for either. Man….that’s a bunch I don’t know.

 

[Winman]

I had always understood the verse to indicate that there was no regret for the things that brought the guilt or sorrow because it led to salvation. But that was because of the translation I used. I’m not sure what “salvation not to be repented of” would mean except that you would never turn from that salvation.

I don’t really understand the factors involved in translating this verse – and don’t know the arguments for either. Man….that’s a bunch I don’t know.

Yes, there is much I do not know as well.

Thanks for the great discussion!

 

[JonC]

Nice dialogue Winman and JonC :thumbsup:

This is how every DEBATE should look on the BB with NO personal insults.

You are both making some good points :wavey:

Winman supports his understanding well. We disagree about election and foreknowledge, but his position is not “unbiblical.” In my opinion much is a matter of reasoning and interpretation – at least one of us is wrong concerning the areas of disagreement (possibly both of us). Why would I not consider what he has to say – I am certainly not beyond correction and can always re-examine my understanding. It is necessary for growth – I can learn why others believe differently, refine my beliefs, reinforce what proves true and dispense with what is false.

“Iron sharpening iron” is not just listening to those who share the same view as you- that accomplishes little. While we may never agree on this issue, it is not what unites Christians anyway.

 

[steaver]

[FONT=&quot]Winman supports his understanding well. We disagree about election and foreknowledge, but his position is not “unbiblical.” In my opinion much is a matter of reasoning and interpretation – at least one of us is wrong concerning the areas of disagreement (possibly both of us). Why would I not consider what he has to say – I am certainly not beyond correction and can always re-examine my understanding. It is necessary for growth – I can learn why others believe differently, refine my beliefs, reinforce what proves true and dispense with what is false.

“Iron sharpening iron” is not just listening to those who share the same view as you- that accomplishes little. While we may never agree on this issue, it is not what unites Christians anyway. [/FONT]

Amen! Well said, I agree wholeheartedly. :wavey:

 

[Yeshua1]

And if God can only foreknow what he has determined to do, how miraculous is that?

I can tell you I will have a tuna sandwich for lunch tomorrow and then make sure that is what I pack for lunch. Whoop de do! Big deal. Even men can tell you ahead of time what they plan to do, nothing miraculous about that at all.

But if I could tell everybody what YOU will have for lunch tomorrow, that is something special.

Do you think that sinful man has within his will the means to seek after and chose jesus as Lord, when the Bible states that we prefer to stay in the darkness, and that no one comes to jesus until/unless the father draws Him first?

That its due to God first choosing me, that I can now choose Him?

 

[Winman]

Do you think that sinful man has within his will the means to seek after and chose jesus as Lord, when the Bible states that we prefer to stay in the darkness, and that no one comes to jesus until/unless the father draws Him first?

That its due to God first choosing me, that I can now choose Him?

 

[steaver]

Do you think that sinful man has within his will the means to seek after and chose jesus as Lord, when the Bible states that we prefer to stay in the darkness, and that no one comes to jesus until/unless the father draws Him first?

That its due to God first choosing me, that I can now choose Him?

Those who reject Jesus prefer to stay in darkness, it does not say that all prefer to stay in darkness.

....and that no one comes to jesus until/unless the father draws Him first?

Non-cals agree that the Father must draw and the Holy Spirit must convict. The disagreement is in the choosing part.

 

[Winman]

Those who reject Jesus prefer to stay in darkness, it does not say that all prefer to stay in darkness.

You have more patience than me, Yeshua1 constantly makes unsupported statements, he will NEVER show scripture that supports his view, because no such scripture exists. That is why I do not answer him. His goal is not to honestly debate, but to distract.

Non-cals agree that the Father must draw and the Holy Spirit must convict. The disagreement is in the choosing part.

He will just ask you another question, watch and see.

 

[JonC]

Do you think that sinful man has within his will the means to seek after and chose jesus as Lord, when the Bible states that we prefer to stay in the darkness, and that no one comes to jesus until/unless the father draws Him first?

That its due to God first choosing me, that I can now choose Him?

My guess is that he believes God calls all men and the elect would be those who respond. (Mostly because that is what he wrote a few posts ago).

God choosing first will not be a valid argument (unless perhaps you want to argue what foreknowledge means – then it’s still very dicey and I wouldn't go there). You seem to believe that God specifically called those who would be saved and either did not call “all men” or that there is a general call and an effectual call (I believe the latter). That’s probably a good position to argue – if you go that route….good luck. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[percho]

I have a question.

How is it that Jesus Christ is called "my elect" by God and at the same time Jesus freely chose to lay down His life? Did Jesus by His own freewill choose to lay down His life or was He elected to lay down His life by the will of God?

My understanding. Jesus the Son of God born of woman was without sin, sinless.

His greatest temptation against sin, not being obedient unto death, came the night before the day he died.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Heb 5:7 See the accounts in Matthew and Luke also. In Hebrews 12:4 this is spoken of as, "resisting unto blood striving against sin."

Through this he learned obedience Heb 5:8 and became obedient unto death even the death of the cross. Phil 2:8

Yet God, "his Father," laid on him the sin of the world and because of this Jesus was forsaken by God, his Father and Jesus died for our sins.

He was forsaken of God, his Father, for three days and three nights.

But he was the elect of God. Elect for what?

Before God said let there be light, before anything took place listed in Genesis 1:3-26 was done, it was foreordained, the Christ, the Anointed, would shed his blood, see death.

Also before the world begin or before the time of ages this same God, the Father of Jesus born of woman made a promise. The hope of eternal life.

The heir of God, the elect; Just who do you believe is going to be given the promise of God, if he is obedient?

Who would be: the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen?

Have faith of God. Mark 11:22

For (because of) obedience of faith, the gospel, that is life and incorruptibility has been brought to light to the nations.
Compare Romans 1:5 with Romans 16:25,26 and 2 Tim 1:10

The phrase obedience of faith is found twice in the word and the word, "the," found associated with that phrase should not be there either place.

 

[percho]

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14

Did/Does God call all these Gentiles or Does God do exactly what that verse says ?

Can I safely assume those God took out of them are the same as these?
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. Eph. 1:4,5

Now has God made known to these he, God, has chosen from the Gentiles something concerning the mystery of the will of God?

Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Sure looks like he did. Just what is this he has made known to these God has taken for his name?

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:-------- Just what does that mean to each of you?

Is this same thing said here?

2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. ----Again what does that mean?

If we look closely can we see this same thing taking place in this verse?

Acts 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.