Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I'll have to admit, this well-reasoned rebuttal just about stumped me. :applause:
Simply put, if he had seen it, he would have corrected it. It's what we do.
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Freewill religion is the Man of Sin !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
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Simply put, if he had seen it, he would have corrected it. It's what we do.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk:
You have been reading my other thread, and I have already given you the definition of what being dead to God means, because its one of the many reasons man must be born again.
But I will accommodate the question this time. It means to be alienated from the Life of God. Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Also it means to be dead in Trespasses and sins Eph 2:1
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
The word dead nekros:
spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
Thats alienation from God and the Life of God in Eph 4:18
Now is that scripture enough for you ?
You have been reading my other thread, and I have already given you the definition of what being dead to God means, because its one of the many reasons man must be born again.
But I will accommodate the question this time. It means to be alienated from the Life of God. Eph 4:18
Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Also it means to be dead in Trespasses and sins Eph 2:1
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
The word dead nekros:
spiritually dead
1) destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins
Thats alienation from God and the Life of God in Eph 4:18
Now is that scripture enough for you ?
You have much truth in what you say but you are confused. Alienated is a good word. It simply means "separated" which is what the word "dead" means. It means that we are separated from God, or alienated from him by sin as you pointed out. It is NOT, as the Calvinist presupposes, lifelessness or in the likeness of a spiritual corpse. That is not what it means. You gave scripture where it simply means alienated; separated. When a person is separated by God from sin, they are still able to respond.
Thus the command: Seek ye the Lord while he yet may be found.
A command which commands us to seek him of our own will.
One is separated from God but has the ability to seek God. Why? Because dead simply means separated, not total inability. His sin separates him but he is able to come to God through hearing the word of God, and the working of the Holy Spirit. In that way a person can be saved--by responding to the gospel. The whosoever's of the Bible cannot be ignored.
savedbymercy
New Member
The Man of sin religion or the freewill religions all have one thing in common, they require man to do something to be come saved and some will require something to done to stay saved ! Even those groups who proclaim Grace ultimately make Justification before God a act of man, mans faith or believing or repentance. The Man of sin religion will always give man a occasion to boast in the flesh. Oh no he will not come right out and brag about it, he will say, but all i did was accept a gift, as that is suppose to mean he is not considering his final decision to accept the gift took away the fact that salvation for him was decided by something he did, he ACCEPTED the gift.
The word accept is a VERB and it means:
to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2. to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3. to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
A verb denotes a performance of an action.
So if one denies that they did anything to become saved , but only accepted a gift, they have just lied to you.
The difference between saved and lost for them was their performance, whereas another who had the same gift offered them but refused to accept it, then it was because they did not perform the action of accepting. So they made themselves to differ, thats boasting, thats the religion of the man of sin, the freewill religion. Its a flat out repudiation of Salvation by Grace.
In my opinion the freewill religion is of Lucifer Isa 14:12-14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This my friends epitomizes the concept of freewill, I WILL..
The word accept is a VERB and it means:
to take or receive (something offered); receive with approval or favor: to accept a present; to accept a proposal.
2. to agree or consent to; accede to: to accept a treaty; to accept an apology.
3. to respond or answer affirmatively to: to accept an invitation.
A verb denotes a performance of an action.
So if one denies that they did anything to become saved , but only accepted a gift, they have just lied to you.
The difference between saved and lost for them was their performance, whereas another who had the same gift offered them but refused to accept it, then it was because they did not perform the action of accepting. So they made themselves to differ, thats boasting, thats the religion of the man of sin, the freewill religion. Its a flat out repudiation of Salvation by Grace.
In my opinion the freewill religion is of Lucifer Isa 14:12-14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
This my friends epitomizes the concept of freewill, I WILL..
Apparently not...and no you don't. Calling free will being of lucifer is lacking in any kind of grace and is an attack no matter how politely and sugar coated you try to make it sound.
As someone who has called calvinism a "damnable heresy" (something I would not say) I am surprised you are allowing this to occur.
Yes.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)
Receive him; accept him; one is unsaved if they don't. Don't listen to Calvin; listen to the Bible.
Eph.2:8. The gift of God. What is it? It is salvation.
For by grace are you saved through faith, it is the gift of God (i.e., salvation). Salvation must be received. It must be accepted. You cannot be saved any other way.
Receiving is a verb, but receiving is not a work. Work is doing; receiving is not doing; not working. Neither is faith. Faith is not a work. Go back to the drawing board.
If you are offered a glass of water, and refuse it, what work did you do?
Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
How much do you think you should be paid for the work of saying "No thank you," Do you get paid by the calories you burn?
Apparently you don't know what salvation by grace is and how to obtain it.
How many calories do you have to burn to obtain it?
SBM here is what you did:
I will post these words.
I will put them on BB.
I will say them to all that will read.
I will show myself to be great in the sight of all.
But in reality you are brought down to the dust and have made yourself foolish in the end just like the passage you posted.
I will; I will; I will; I will. You have been saying this all along. It has become your religion.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You approach John 1:12-13 as though verse 13 does not exist. Adoption is the consequence of justification as justification provides the legal grounds for adoption. The term power is not dumamis but exousia - authority/right. Justification by faith provides the legal authority/right for adoption as sons of God.
However, verse 13 is not talking about legal adoption as sons but spiritual birth as children and verse 13 explicitly denies the human will can be credited with the new birth but only the will of God. So again verse 13 denies the new birth is something "YOU CAN DO IT"
The prior context is talking about divine quickening (vv. 1,5) and it is continues to be the subject in verse 10a. The Greek text uses the perfect tense verb accompanied with the present tense finite verb that points back to a specific point in time of a completed action that is carried forward to the present and stands completed. This completed action is further described in verse 8-9 as a gift of God not of works but rather the CREATIVE work of God and only God can Create. Hence, both "saved" and "through faith" are the creative work of God wrought in the person denying that "faith" is the cause of being saved but rather the created channel "through" which one is saved. God gives a NEW HEART and this is a believing heart (Rom. 10:8-10) as the old heart did not believe and therefore is condemned (Jn. 3:18).
You are correct and therefore your theory "YOU CAN DO IT" is wrong! Faith is not something "YOU CAN DO..." it is something created in you by God - thus "a gift of God" that RECEIVES what God has does in you.
You fail to understand the nature of works. Works are not simply EXTERNAL acts of the body but they are first INTERNAL acts of the heart and mind. That is why Jesus could say if a man LOOKETH upon a women he has violated the works of the law! This is why Jesus could say if you have anger IN YOUR HEART you have violated the law. This is why Paul violated the tenth commandment by merely LUSTING in his heart. Rejection of the gospel is a work - a bad word - a sin and will be judged.
However, saving faith is not a work of YOUR heart! God gives a NEW heart and it is a believing heart and that is why saving faith is "not of yourselves but a gift of God" because it is not of your heart but the heart that God GIVES you:
Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Take note that it is the new heart that is given that CAUSES the person to obey God's voice and word not vica versa as your theory teaches.
Dr. Walter
New Member
It also means SPIRITUAL INABILITY - Rom. 8:7 "neither indeed can be"
It also means INCAPABILITY OF SPIRITUAL PERCEPTION - Deut. 29:4
Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
You are confusing RESPONSIBILITY with CAPABILITY. The Scripture clearly teaches the "dead" sinner is not CAPABLE of perceiving, seeing or hearing spiritual things and it is due to their own fault as represented in Adam -
"by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"
The Scriptures clearly teach that the lost are RESPONSIBLE to repent and believe but they are not CAPABLE of any kind of obedience to God until God GIVES them a NEW heart which is capable:
1. DHK says "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. - John 3:19
1. DHK says "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible say "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. - Rom. 8:7
1. DHK says "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again," - Jn. 12:39
1. DHK says, "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. - Jn. 10:26
1. DHK says, "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "Ye WILL NOT come unto me that ye might have life" - Jn. 5:40
1. DHK says, "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! - Deut. 5:29
1. DHK says, "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day." - Deut. 29:4
1. DHK says, "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
1. DHK says, "YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "Except a man be born OF GOD" - Jn. 3:3
1. DHK says, 'YOU CAN DO IT"
2. Bible says, "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil." - Jer. 13:23
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savedbymercy
New Member
dhk:
Yes it is, its a performance of an action, I just showed proof of that. That defines a work perfectly. Receive is something man does. God does not receive for man !
Yes it is, its a performance of an action, I just showed proof of that. That defines a work perfectly. Receive is something man does. God does not receive for man !
Dr. Walter
New Member
God does not receive for man but God does provide man the ability to receive salvation as God gives him a "NEW HEART" that is receptive to the gospel, without which man WILL NOT receive it.
Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
savedbymercy
New Member
dw:
The giving of a New Heart is being saved. That is how man receives salvation experientially. See, the fallacy is thinking that to receive something from God means that it was offered to them. Thats not true, especially in the realm of Salvation and redemption. To receive means mostly that something has been given, communicated effectually to.
When Paul said that He received His Ministry from the Lord as here Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
That does not mean that Jesus Christ offered Him the Ministry as an option for Him to either accept or reject. He received it because God made Him a Minister by the effectual working of His Power and Grace Eph 3:7
7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
You see that ? In Acts 20:24 He said he received the Ministry. The word received there is the greek word lambano :
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
Its in the indicative mood meaning it is a simple statement of Fact that He received the Ministry from the Lord, yet it does not mean at all that the ministry was an option for him to reject or accept.
Paul was made a Minister, Sovereignly by God's Power and Grace, that is how He received it.
God gives His elect a New Heart, Sovereignly, that in itself is subjective salvation, Paul says He saved us [ subjectively] How Paul ?
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
So you error in bringing in the element of God giving man the ability to receive salvation as you stated here:
Mans ability has absolutely nothing to do with him receiving Salvation. Thats like saying God gives man the ability to receive a New Heart ! A New Heart is Salvation experientially !It is a New Creation ! Ezk 11:
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Nothing about mans ability at all, its all God's doing.
When man receives the word, the Gospel of their salvation, they are being informed by God of their salvation, they are gaining a knowledge of it, it is being revealed to them. Rom 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
The giving of a New Heart is being saved. That is how man receives salvation experientially. See, the fallacy is thinking that to receive something from God means that it was offered to them. Thats not true, especially in the realm of Salvation and redemption. To receive means mostly that something has been given, communicated effectually to.
When Paul said that He received His Ministry from the Lord as here Acts 20:24
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
That does not mean that Jesus Christ offered Him the Ministry as an option for Him to either accept or reject. He received it because God made Him a Minister by the effectual working of His Power and Grace Eph 3:7
7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
You see that ? In Acts 20:24 He said he received the Ministry. The word received there is the greek word lambano :
to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get back
Its in the indicative mood meaning it is a simple statement of Fact that He received the Ministry from the Lord, yet it does not mean at all that the ministry was an option for him to reject or accept.
Paul was made a Minister, Sovereignly by God's Power and Grace, that is how He received it.
God gives His elect a New Heart, Sovereignly, that in itself is subjective salvation, Paul says He saved us [ subjectively] How Paul ?
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
So you error in bringing in the element of God giving man the ability to receive salvation as you stated here:
Mans ability has absolutely nothing to do with him receiving Salvation. Thats like saying God gives man the ability to receive a New Heart ! A New Heart is Salvation experientially !It is a New Creation ! Ezk 11:
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
Nothing about mans ability at all, its all God's doing.
When man receives the word, the Gospel of their salvation, they are being informed by God of their salvation, they are gaining a knowledge of it, it is being revealed to them. Rom 1:16-17
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Please go back and read the OP, and be careful with what you are agreeing to. You are agreeing with someone who is stating that all who believe in such verses as John 3:16; 5:24; Rom.10:13; Acts 16:31; 10:43; etc. have the religion of the Antichrist. This is a serious charge against not only the Bible, but many of those here who believe the Bible. The Bible states very clearly:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
There is a responsibility of the unsaved to believe. Even Calvin and Spurgeon taught this. So does MacArthur. To deny this belief is to deny basic soteriology. We have a responsibility, given to us by God, to believe the gospel. This poster, SBG, says that that responsibility is a religion connected with the Antichrist--Satan. This is blasphemy--a blasphemy that you are now agreeing to.
Dr. Walter
New Member
What I agreed to what what was contained in the post that my words were attached to. All doctrine has its roots either in the spirit of error or the Spirit of truth. I agree Arminianism has its roots in the Spirit of error. The Antichrist has his roots in the spirit of error. However, so does Roman Catholicism and etc,. etc. as ALL ERROR has the same root source.
I don't claim to be free from ALL ERROR and therefore what error I embrace has its roots in the spirit of error as well. Therefore, in that area of error I share the same source with the Antichrist - the spirit of error.
However, it is one thing to identify with the Antichrist in regard to error and quite another thing to call someone the Antichrist or a follower of Antichrist.
You have identifed me with Atheists in a recent post. I don't believe you are charging me to be an Atheists or a follower of Atheists but in your mind I am in agreement with some tenets of Atheism. Likewise with the Antichrist and his religion.
I don't claim to be free from ALL ERROR and therefore what error I embrace has its roots in the spirit of error as well. Therefore, in that area of error I share the same source with the Antichrist - the spirit of error.
However, it is one thing to identify with the Antichrist in regard to error and quite another thing to call someone the Antichrist or a follower of Antichrist.
You have identifed me with Atheists in a recent post. I don't believe you are charging me to be an Atheists or a follower of Atheists but in your mind I am in agreement with some tenets of Atheism. Likewise with the Antichrist and his religion.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are distorting this man! The truth is that he is stating that all who interpret such verses as John 3:16; 5:24; Rom. 10:13; Acts 16:31 ect. as YOU do embrace an aspect of the Antichrist religion.
I don't believe he said that "responsibility" is a religion connected with the Antichrist - Satan but rather how you define and interpret responsibility is!
I believe that human responsibility does not contradict Divine Sovereignty but the latter is the cause in salvation whereas the former is the consequence in salvation.
Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
I guess that is why I have been a moderator all these years. I do not edit someone just because I happen to disagree with his argument; I edit only when I feel that a rule has been violated.
On another note, a right view of soteriology is imperative, otherwise one has espoused a "damnable heresy."
savedbymercy
New Member
Makes Room for man to Glory !
The Man of sin religion or the Freewill religion are all religions that gives space for men to Glory in the flesh for the salvation of the soul. It should always be God who is entitled to the praise and Glory of Salvation, even when one Trusts in Christ after hearing the word of Truth, the Gospel of their Salvation. This is seen in Eph 1:12-13
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ones Trusting, believing in Christ as a result of having their Salvation made known to them by the Gospel, should be to the Praise of His Glory, not the glory of freewill, or my decision or my choice.
Paul Thanked God when people received the word and believed 1 Thess 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
You see, God is to be Thanked for believers because it meant God effectually worked in them !
The man of sin religion, the freewill religion takes credit to themselves for believing the word of Truth, and in doing so, takes credit for their trusting, resulting in their salvation..
The Man of sin religion or the Freewill religion are all religions that gives space for men to Glory in the flesh for the salvation of the soul. It should always be God who is entitled to the praise and Glory of Salvation, even when one Trusts in Christ after hearing the word of Truth, the Gospel of their Salvation. This is seen in Eph 1:12-13
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ones Trusting, believing in Christ as a result of having their Salvation made known to them by the Gospel, should be to the Praise of His Glory, not the glory of freewill, or my decision or my choice.
Paul Thanked God when people received the word and believed 1 Thess 2:13
For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
You see, God is to be Thanked for believers because it meant God effectually worked in them !
The man of sin religion, the freewill religion takes credit to themselves for believing the word of Truth, and in doing so, takes credit for their trusting, resulting in their salvation..
Please demonstrate where one individual on this board takes credit for his own salvation or take back this baseless remark.
Now, who is the man of sin. He is the antichrist who is yet to come. He will come at the beginning of the Tribulation Period, a period of seven years when God will pour out his wrath upon this world. It will be a time when he will proclaim himself as the world leader, and all nations will follow him. He is basically a political leader, while the false prophet is the religious leader of the world. Read Revelation 13 about the two beasts to find out the difference. The ultimate end of both of these leaders is given in Rev.20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast [antichrist or man of sin] and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
1. Here is my first question. I believe in the free will of man. I have been saved and doing the Lord's work for over 30 years. Do you believe that I too will end up in the lake of fire with the man of sin, because I believe in the free will of man? Please answer.
The Apostle Paul says that the coming of the Lord is soon. He will come first.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2 Thessalonians 2:1)
--When he does, then we believers will be resurrected with him.
2. My second question. It plainly says: First the resurrection, then the man of sin will be revealed in verse 3.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
I believe in free will. Do you honestly believe that I, as a believer, will not be resurrected because I believe in the free will of man? But rather will be a follower of the man of sin as described in verse 3? Please answer.
3. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
--The man of sin will sit in the temple of God and will try and prove to the world that he is God.
My next question to you is, as a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ do you honestly think that I will have missed the resurrection, and will follow this imposter and actually believe that he is God?
4. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thessalonians 2:12)
--Are you accusing me of:
a. being damned.
b. having not believed the truth.
c. have had pleasure in unrighteousness,
--All as a result of believing in the free will of man.
Please answer.
This is what you are accusing every person on this board who believes in the free will of man. Are you still willing to stand by your position?
Dr. Walter
New Member
I believe that self-assertion ("I will") is the essence of sin and the essence of self-assertion is free-willism ("I can"). It is not him "that runneth or him that willeth" but God's will and power that is determinate in salvation. Yes, it deifies man and thereby repudiates the Sovereignty of God.
Having said that, I also believe that the depraved human will is in bondage and a servant to a depraved heart and its freedom does not extend beyound that realm or bondage. It is free to sin as that is its sphere of liberty. Salvation is God giving a NEW HEART which is a believing heart with a new sphere of freedom in righteousness.
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