When it comes to man choosing his own salvation this is based on religious myth and tradition and not God's Word. In fact the Bible teaches to the contrary. Please do not quote sciptures from the OT, seeing salvation comes by the blood of Jesus not the blood of sheep and goats.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.
- Thread starter Benoni
- Start date
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Maybe I shouldn't post, but this is the second post from a new member (welcome by the way) and is started with with the Calvinism/Arminian controversy...
I'm not complaining..but..what up wit dat? :laugh:
I'm not complaining..but..what up wit dat? :laugh:
So what's wrong withe the OT reference? Jesus was in the OT too didn't cha know? :smilewinkgrin:
Is that all you have?
The lamb was slain from the foundation of the world; but we are speaking salvation here which man does not choose or have a non scriptural freewill when it comes to salvation to choose.
Like I said God's Word teaches to the CONTRARY.
So many of these debates are about mere mechanics rather than pure doctrine Whether anyone will fess up to it or not.
By your OP you seem like you want to teach rather than discuss this topic.
Well thank you for the warm welcome. I do not follow Calvinism/Arminian. Jesus is the way.
This may be true. But I am speaking of scripture here not opinion. No where is there any reference to man having a freewill or choice in scripture. I am just waiting for some one to show me chapter and verse?
ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Friend, you came here to pick a fight. That doesn't seem like Jesus' Way.
What are you talking about? Are you offended I do not follow either Calvinism or Arminian? Didjesus tell us we should be a Calvinism or Arminian or believers seeking truth?
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.
draw: 1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
N
NE, NO man, women child CAN COME TO ME, except the Father DRAW/DRAG/FORCES him.
So where is the religious word freewill in being dragged or drawn????
Notice the CONTEXT of Eph. 2.
Eph 2: 1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast
I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw (Gk(drag) all men unto me.
draw: 1670 helkuo (hel-koo'-o);or helko (hel'-ko); probably akin to 138; to drag (literally or figuratively):
N
NE, NO man, women child CAN COME TO ME, except the Father DRAW/DRAG/FORCES him. So where is the religious word freewill in being dragged or drawn????
Notice the CONTEXT of Eph. 2.
Eph 2: 1(1) And you hath he quickened, (2) who were dead in trespasses and sins;
(Eph. 6:17). Then the writer to the Hebrews declares that the sword of God’s word is "QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! "For the word of God that speaks is alive and full of power — making it active, operative, energizing and effective; it is sharper than any two-edged sword" (Heb. 4:12, Amplified).
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (3) (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye (4) saved through faith; (5) and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast
I will add once this has happen we had no choice or freewill.
Truth is truth no matter who sees it.
Just be careful how you present it....you could be a clanging cymbal if ya don't have love.
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering t us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
It's his will that noone perish; therefore if one does perish, he does so by his own choosing.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Why believe if one does not have a choice.
Bro K,I agree with you on this BUT I do see election clearly taught as well. I believe it's a paradox "freewill and Chosen". But like Deuteronomy 29:29 states“The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever,". Paul even expressed his limited mind when he said " O what a depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how untraceable his ways!". I see both taught...the sovereignty of God and the responsibility of man.
PLEASE… show me your assumed words "choice or freewill" but remember I am the one quote God’s Word in context and not assuming something because man’s traditions declares it where God’s Word does not even mention it. Look at the context of Eph. 2. Look how far down the chapter it takes before salvation is a result of “man”, “not God”. I am speaking context in Ephesians when context is warranted. No one can believe until God has quickened (made them alive for they are dead in trespasses and sin. God must quicken them FIRST, draw them first.
If god is not willing, then there is no reasons it will not happen; God is not calling the whole world now.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw (Gk(drag) him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
What responsiblity of man? Did not God cause the fall; what choice did Adam or we have? I will back this up with scripture.
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Bro K,
I am not at all meaning to agree with Benoni's truculent style. However, I would like to mention to you that 2 Peter 3:9 is in a context of Peter talking to a church experiencing division over false teaching and the verse is pointed to Christians about persons who are presumed to be Christians (but are likely not living or believing as they ought to).
Secondly, the John 3:16 "Whosoever believeth" is actually better translated "All the ones believing." The Greek makes no mention of how they came to believe.
Blessings,
The Archangel