Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.

[jbh28]

If we look at scripture and see how the word is used the word drawn or draggged or even forced is very appropiate.

I already gave the following examples in Jn. 18:10, it is said that "Peter having a sword DREW it..." The impetuous disciple most assuredly did not draw the weapon out of its sheath in a gingerly or wooing fashion. Nor did the sword seek to draw itself out by its own will and good pleasure! Peter didn't merely "invite" the sword to come out, in spite of any resistance the blade may have had as it dragged the leather scabbard, the muscular arm of Peter yanked it forcefully out in obedience to his will.

Then we have:

When the apostle James wishes to describe the manner in which rich men forcibly drag those who are indebted to them to prison, he uses the word HELKO. In James 2:6 he writes, "Do not rich men oppress you and DRAW you before the judgment seats?" This "drawing," of course, was not with wooing or pleading! It was an act of force that absolutely took no care of the willingness of the person drawn! The poor man might resist ever so much, and he might cry and plead, but he was drawn irresistibly to the place of judgment! It is with precisely this kind of forceful drawing that the Lord Jesus is talking when He says, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will DRAW all drawn unto me!" And, thank God, they are not just drawn "toward" Him, but UNTO HIM --all the way! Because the Christ was "lifted up" on the cross of Calvary, dying on behalf of every man of Adam's race, the promise is sure, He will inexorably DRAW all men unto Himself! The divine plan calls for the Church, the body of Christ, to be drawn to Him in this age, all the living nations of the world to be drawn to Him in the next age, and the remainder of men, all who have ever lived and died upon this planet in the ages to come.
Another example of the use of the Greek work HELKO which shows that the drawing is by force and in spite of the resistance of the one drawn, is in Acts 16:19. When Paul and Silas were vexed by the demonic slave girl, Paul cast the evil spirit out of her. Her masters saw that all hope of profit was gone, so they grabbed the two servants of Jesus and forcibly dragged them to the judges in the market place. We read: "And when her masters saw that the hope of their gain was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW them into the market place unto the rulers." This was not an act in which the persons drawn delighted to cooperate. No, it was an act of force which "compelled" them to go where they would not have preferred to go! So it is with man who is spiritually dead and happy to follow the devil to hell because he prefers darkness to light. He does not "come to Jesus" of his own "free will." If he has eyes to see and ears to hear the Lord it is because God has quickened his spirit and opened his spiritual sight and unplugged his spiritual ears, as it is written, "The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them! " (Prov. 20:12).

Still another instance in which the Greek word HELKO is translated "draw," when it refers to taking by force and overcoming all resistance, is Acts 21:30. Paul is seen in the temple at Jerusalem, and the Jews are so aroused by the presence of this apostle of Jesus that they incite the mob to lynch him if at all possible. They did not gently invite him to "please leave," nor did they "lovingly" draw him out of the place. No, they grabbed him forcibly, determined to haul him out of their holy house. The Scripture declares that "All the city was moved, and the people ran together; and they took Paul, and DREW him out of the temple, and at once the doors were shut." Of course he was rescued at this point by the Roman soldiers before the Jews could kill him for desecrating the temple by his presence. The point is that "draw" speaks of violence and force, not gentle persuasion.

you realize that words have multiple meanings. Draw in this passage does not mean "violence and force" if read in context. Just because it means that in another passage doesn't mean that it means that in this passage.

 

[Benoni]

you realize that words have multiple meanings. Draw in this passage does not mean "violence and force" if read in context. Just because it means that in another passage doesn't mean that it means that in this passage.

I understand that but what this does mean is man does not have a freewill or choice when it comes to his salvation. I also used the word quicken in Eph. 2:1.

 

[Benoni]

I agree Jedi. :thumbs:

This is my personality on these debates. Am I attacking you personnaly?

 

[jbh28]

I understand that but what this does mean is man does not have a freewill or choice when it comes to his salvation. I also used the word quicken in Eph. 2:1.

Where does it say man does NOT have a choice? I believe Ephesians 2 talks about man being dead in his sins. Other places as well teach that mans choice will never be for God. God draws the person to himself, the person comes. Not because he was smart enough to do so, but because he has been made alive ad Ephesians 2 speaks about. Both election and whosoever will are in the Bible. Both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are in the Bible. The problem is that some ignore sovereignty and promote only responsibility while others promote sovereignty and ignore responsibility. Both are taught in the Bible. Man does chose to come to Christ, but only because of the working of God.

 

[Bro K]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro K View Post
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering t us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It's his will that noone perish; therefore if one does perish, he does so by his own choosing.

jbh28 quote: "Any of whom? If God is not willing that any person on earth perish, then why does God send anybody to Hell? Can He not get what He wants? Is God in heaven hoping that people will believe him but knowing that he wont' be able to get everybody even though he wants to?"

:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead: GOODBYE :wavey:

 

[Benoni]

Where does it say man does NOT have a choice? I believe Ephesians 2 talks about man being dead in his sins. Other places as well teach that mans choice will never be for God. God draws the person to himself, the person comes. Not because he was smart enough to do so, but because he has been made alive ad Ephesians 2 speaks about. Both election and whosoever will are in the Bible. Both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are in the Bible. The problem is that some ignore sovereignty and promote only responsibility while others promote sovereignty and ignore responsibility. Both are taught in the Bible. Man does chose to come to Christ, but only because of the working of God.

I am a sovereignty of God believer, and not much on man's responsiblity for we are all sinners and it it is God who chooses for a purpose. The word "whosoever" in the Greek is from the Greek word "pas" which means all. Man cannot choose God, god chooses man. God is not calling the whole world now.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "whosoever" in John l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

 

[Benoni]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bro K View Post
II Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering t us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

It's his will that noone perish; therefore if one does perish, he does so by his own choosing.

jbh28 quote: "Any of whom? If God is not willing that any person on earth perish, then why does God send anybody to Hell? Can He not get what He wants? Is God in heaven hoping that people will believe him but knowing that he wont' be able to get everybody even though he wants to?"

:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead: GOODBYE :wavey:

If this is true then show me where man has a choice; carnal man is "dead in trutpasses and sin" and cannot choose. All he can do is reject.

If God is God is willing; then how yes God is willing. But it is His timing not ours.

 

[Benoni]

Where does it say man does NOT have a choice? I believe Ephesians 2 talks about man being dead in his sins. Other places as well teach that mans choice will never be for God. God draws the person to himself, the person comes. Not because he was smart enough to do so, but because he has been made alive ad Ephesians 2 speaks about. Both election and whosoever will are in the Bible. Both God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are in the Bible. The problem is that some ignore sovereignty and promote only responsibility while others promote sovereignty and ignore responsibility. Both are taught in the Bible. Man does chose to come to Christ, but only because of the working of God.

man does have a choose. After hhe is drawn or quickened.

 

[The Archangel]

John 3:15-17 is one of the most mis-translated verses in Scripture.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);


9999 is far worst then "666".

And so what point would you be making?

The Archangel

 

[The Archangel]

Thanks for the response :wavey: Apparently we are using a different translation. I believe the word "perish" is key; I believe that none of God's children will perish but spend eternity with Him.

I prefer the English Standard Version. It, like all translations, is not perfect and even in John 3:16 there are some translations issues.

I'm intrigued by your mention of "perish" being the key. I'm also intrigued by your other statement that none of God's children will perish. This leads me to ask: "who are God's children?" Is it every person? Is it those that believe in Christ?

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Benoni]

I prefer the English Standard Version. It, like all translations, is not perfect and even in John 3:16 there are some translations issues.

I'm intrigued by your mention of "perish" being the key. I'm also intrigued by your other statement that none of God's children will perish. This leads me to ask: "who are God's children?" Is it every person? Is it those that believe in Christ?

Blessings,

The Archangel

Not all God's Children are God's elect.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Not all God's Children are God's elect.

all of God's elect are God's children.
not all of God's children are disciples.

 

[Benoni]

all of God's elect are God's children.
not all of God's children are disciples.

This is true. But this was not my point.

There is the elect and there is great multitude, which no man could number, all our God’s people. Some before the throne, others on the throne.

There are two types of people in the Book of Revelation; the Elect/Overcomer and everyone else.

All are heir to salvation does not make you the elect.

Notice there is a distinction between the great multitudes BEFORE the throne

(Rev. 7:9) in comparison to the overcomer who Christ will grant to sit with me on my throne (Rev. 3:21) .

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev. 3: 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What are you talking about? Are you offended I do not follow either Calvinism or Arminian? Didjesus tell us we should be a Calvinism or Arminian or believers seeking truth?

It may be hard right now for you to see it, but you came with your sword drawn, seeking to pick a fight with your brethren! I have done this too, and I am trying to help you see this.

Have you read the Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan? It's a wonderful allegory if you haven't. Consider the part about Valiant for Truth. Pastor Bunyan conveyed some important truth there and wisdom.

To answer your question, no I am not offended that you claim to neither hold to Calvinist or Arminian theology. To answer your second question Jesus commands us to believe in Him and to love our brethren.

 

[jbh28]

man does have a choose. After hhe is drawn or quickened.

man has a choice before too, it is just no.

 

[jbh28]

John 3:15-17 is one of the most mis-translated verses in Scripture.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);


9999 is far worst then "666".

huh?

 

[quantumfaith]

This may be true. But I am speaking of scripture here not opinion. No where is there any reference to man having a freewill or choice in scripture. I am just waiting for some one to show me chapter and verse?

Was it not mans "freedom of will" which put everything in motion resulting and culminating in the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Christ?

 

[quantumfaith]

The problem is that some ignore sovereignty and promote only responsibility while others promote sovereignty and ignore responsibility. Both are taught in the Bible. Man does chose to come to Christ, but only because of the working of God.

Excellent observation and post.

 

[Benoni]

It may be hard right now for you to see it, but you came with your sword drawn, seeking to pick a fight with your brethren! I have done this too, and I am trying to help you see this.

Have you read the Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan? It's a wonderful allegory if you haven't. Consider the part about Valiant for Truth. Pastor Bunyan conveyed some important truth there and wisdom.

To answer your question, no I am not offended that you claim to neither hold to Calvinist or Arminian theology. To answer your second question Jesus commands us to believe in Him and to love our brethren.

Who said I do not love my brethem; by allowing my brethen to believe a lie is love?

I thought this was a forum? A place of debate, seeking truth and searching the depths of God's deep and aweome Word?


God's Word is a progressive Word and not based on any man's traditions, creeds or systems.

Truth is harsh and demans overwhelming thought. Of course most drink only the milk of the Word not the meat. Anyone including spiritual babes can drink milk;ilk just slides down our spiritual throat with ease. But meat takes maturity for to spiritual meat you need spiritual teeth to chew on it.

I do not agree with most here so they are offended. I present God's Word in an open debate using scriptures. I do not need to spin these verses around what I believe I base then on what God's Word declares.

 

[Benoni]

Was it not mans "freedom of will" which put everything in motion resulting and culminating in the life, ministry, death and resurrection of Christ?

This is a big statement but what are you saYING? It was God's will that man fell. It was God's will long before there was a sinner their was a savior for the lamb wa slain from the foundation of the earth. Death happened because God willed it, not little Adam