Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.

[Benoni]

benoni:

You deny being a Calvinist yet you speak or seem to speak of total depravity in your statements that no man can come to Christ unless He first draws the creature to Him.

So, your profile doens't say you are reformed or calvinist or even primitive baptist like myself, so what soteriology do you hold to ?

I am a Christian and I have not been quoting Calvin; I have been quoting God's Word; if I have not please point this out to me.

I am a Christian Univeralist.

 

[Benoni]

Friend, what is needed in you is to learn to speak the truth in love. Having right knowledge and doctrine is extremely important. Having it without Christian character is a deformity. And this is something that we all should work on.

If in your contention your seeking to win debates and arguments, you have lost before you start. Seek to win your brethren, should they even be lost. Love them. Honor them. Cherish them.

And what have I done to offend? I quote God's Word? You do not like what I say so you keep attacking me as if I am showing no love. Should I lie to you would that make you feal loved?

 

[Benoni]

That is where the word of Jesus come, without It I would be dead without a choice for life. It gave me life to this dead body to either walk the road trusting in Jesus and have life or not and remain dead as I was.

I do not trust man, but trust Jesus and His word. In order to keep this life we have is to keep His word, not in our work, but trusting in Him where their is no work on our part.

Can't trust him tell He calls you.

 

[Don]

Did not God choose David? Moses? Paul? Please show me one example in scipture where God's elect were not choosen by God first? Carnal man has a freewill to reject, but does not have afreewill to receive. Matthew 19 was a rejection.

Salvation is a catch word for fundies. I am speaking of "full salvation" with God's elect . Like I said God is not calling all people now. Do these verses have a message or were they put there for no reason.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Please understand that I'm trying to understand your position here.

Acts 2 later says "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
In order to reconcile that with the understanding that you're providing from verse 39, "they that gladly received his word" were called by God first; is that correct?

Frankly, 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about the resurrection; I'm not seeing how you're tying that to having to be called before being saved.

As a general question, Paul was chosen; so why did he offer invitations? Why did Jesus offer invitations? What's the point of reaching out, if we have to be called first?

BTW: When people here are telling you you're preaching Calvinism, I understand why you say you're not. However, this line of "being chosen" was made popular by Calvin, and is thus identified as Calvinism/Calvinistic.

 

[Dr. Walter]

John 6:44 and the word translated "draw" means in this context to EFFECTUALLY DRAW and it cannot be repudiated if honesty is the virture behind the interpreter of this context. It is very simple and easy to prove this.

Note the ending phrase of John 6:44:

draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

This is the third time this phrase has been used by Christ in this context. The first time is in John 6:39:

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This phrase is the added confirmation to the preceding claim "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Jesus is claiming that "OF ALL" the Father gives him "NOTHING" shall be lost and the phrase "but should raise it up again at the last day" is a confirmation that NOTHING shall be lost - it is the affirmation of absolute salvation "OF ALL" those given to the Son by the Father.

The Second time this phrase is used is in John 6:40:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is a further affirmation of the preceding words "have everlasting life" which is finalized by the resurrection to life.

Hence, these first two uses of the phrase define it to mean that the person being described SHALL NOT BE LOST in the future but will be raised to eternal life.

Now, let us return to John 6:44 and notice that the "him" which is drawn is the SAME "him" that shall not be lost in the future but will be raised to eternal life:

draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

The antecedant for the second "him" is the first "him" that is drawn - this proves the drawing is effectual.

Furthermore, in John 6:45 Jesus further explains what being drawn includes. He quotes from a prophet that demands "ALL" of those defined as "they" will be taught by God. Not "SOME" but "ALL." This teaching by God is then defined by Christ to include hearing God and learning from God. Hence, ALL hear and learn. Now, notice that "EVERY MAN" that both hears and learns "cometh unto me." It does not say "SOME" who hear and learn come but "EVERY MAN" who hears and learns cometh unto me - HENCE IT IS EFFECTUAL DRAWING as "EVERY MAN" cometh to Christ.


It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Finally, Jesus has already stated that ALL the Father gives to him shall come to him (Jn. 6:37) and "OF ALL the Father gives him I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Again, the latter phrase in John 6:44 confirms that the "him" that is drawn is the "him" that will be raised to eternal life. These are the "they" of verse 45 and "ALL" of them shall be taught of God and "EVERY MAN" so taught (hear and learn) "cometh unto me - that defines drawing in this context as EFFECTUAL as there is no exceptions to the "ALL" or to "EVERY MAN" as they come to Christ.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

...............

I am a Christian Univeralist.

GE:

Even the mighty Barth tried hard to be one .... and failed.

And the failure Juergen Moltmann failed .....

And right back into the first centuries AD many have tried .... and failed.

The only way you will succeed is by cutting out ALL of Scripture and the very principle of: "s-a-l-v-a-t-i-o-n-and-Christianity".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

John 6:44 and the word translated "draw" means in this context to EFFECTUALLY DRAW and it cannot be repudiated if honesty is the virture behind the interpreter of this context. It is very simple and easy to prove this.

Note the ending phrase of John 6:44:

draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

This is the third time this phrase has been used by Christ in this context. The first time is in John 6:39:

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This phrase is the added confirmation to the preceding claim "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Jesus is claiming that "OF ALL" the Father gives him "NOTHING" shall be lost and the phrase "but should raise it up again at the last day" is a confirmation that NOTHING shall be lost - it is the affirmation of absolute salvation "OF ALL" those given to the Son by the Father.

The Second time this phrase is used is in John 6:40:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is a further affirmation of the preceding words "have everlasting life" which is finalized by the resurrection to life.

Hence, these first two uses of the phrase define it to mean that the person being described SHALL NOT BE LOST in the future but will be raised to eternal life.

Now, let us return to John 6:44 and notice that the "him" which is drawn is the SAME "him" that shall not be lost in the future but will be raised to eternal life:

draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

The antecedant for the second "him" is the first "him" that is drawn - this proves the drawing is effectual.

Furthermore, in John 6:45 Jesus further explains what being drawn includes. He quotes from a prophet that demands "ALL" of those defined as "they" will be taught by God. Not "SOME" but "ALL." This teaching by God is then defined by Christ to include hearing God and learning from God. Hence, ALL hear and learn. Now, notice that "EVERY MAN" that both hears and learns "cometh unto me." It does not say "SOME" who hear and learn come but "EVERY MAN" who hears and learns cometh unto me - HENCE IT IS EFFECTUAL DRAWING as "EVERY MAN" cometh to Christ.


It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Finally, Jesus has already stated that ALL the Father gives to him shall come to him (Jn. 6:37) and "OF ALL the Father gives him I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Again, the latter phrase in John 6:44 confirms that the "him" that is drawn is the "him" that will be raised to eternal life. These are the "they" of verse 45 and "ALL" of them shall be taught of God and "EVERY MAN" so taught (hear and learn) "cometh unto me - that defines drawing in this context as EFFECTUAL as there is no exceptions to the "ALL" or to "EVERY MAN" as they come to Christ.

GE:
Thank you Doc; this comes as a refreshing breeze in the desert of hopelessness of a certain kind of christianity.

 

[Benoni]

Please understand that I'm trying to understand your position here.

Acts 2 later says "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
In order to reconcile that with the understanding that you're providing from verse 39, "they that gladly received his word" were called by God first; is that correct?

Frankly, 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about the resurrection; I'm not seeing how you're tying that to having to be called before being saved.

As a general question, Paul was chosen; so why did he offer invitations? Why did Jesus offer invitations? What's the point of reaching out, if we have to be called first?

BTW: When people here are telling you you're preaching Calvinism, I understand why you say you're not. However, this line of "being chosen" was made popular by Calvin, and is thus identified as Calvinism/Calvinistic.

Problem with Calvin is he did not understand the priesthood of God.

Are we not speaking about God here when it comes to salvation? Creator and master of all things, Lord of lords, King of Kings, the Alpha and the Omega and all the Greek letters in between. Or are we speaking of carnal man who has no spiritual will, who is dead in trespasses and sin, who’s spiritual understanding is a dead as a ten year old cow rotting in a woods somewhere.

You are placing your faith in “will” of carnal man having according to God’s Word not the traditions of man’s ten thousand religion who believe in freewill or choice is scriptural; which no one here or in any forum can back up unless something is assumed just like you are assuming in Acts that God’s Holy Spirit did not first quicken these 3000 souls . I on the other hand quoted John 6:44 and the context of the first part of Ephesians 2 which clearly declares how God saves us.

1 Corinthians 15 clearly is a lot of things and I guess the proper thing would start a thread on such a awesome and beautiful truth.

 

[Benoni]

John 6:44 and the word translated "draw" means in this context to EFFECTUALLY DRAW and it cannot be repudiated if honesty is the virture behind the interpreter of this context. It is very simple and easy to prove this.

Note the ending phrase of John 6:44:

draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

This is the third time this phrase has been used by Christ in this context. The first time is in John 6:39:

And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

This phrase is the added confirmation to the preceding claim "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING." Jesus is claiming that "OF ALL" the Father gives him "NOTHING" shall be lost and the phrase "but should raise it up again at the last day" is a confirmation that NOTHING shall be lost - it is the affirmation of absolute salvation "OF ALL" those given to the Son by the Father.

The Second time this phrase is used is in John 6:40:

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It is a further affirmation of the preceding words "have everlasting life" which is finalized by the resurrection to life.

Hence, these first two uses of the phrase define it to mean that the person being described SHALL NOT BE LOST in the future but will be raised to eternal life.

Now, let us return to John 6:44 and notice that the "him" which is drawn is the SAME "him" that shall not be lost in the future but will be raised to eternal life:

draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day

The antecedant for the second "him" is the first "him" that is drawn - this proves the drawing is effectual.

Furthermore, in John 6:45 Jesus further explains what being drawn includes. He quotes from a prophet that demands "ALL" of those defined as "they" will be taught by God. Not "SOME" but "ALL." This teaching by God is then defined by Christ to include hearing God and learning from God. Hence, ALL hear and learn. Now, notice that "EVERY MAN" that both hears and learns "cometh unto me." It does not say "SOME" who hear and learn come but "EVERY MAN" who hears and learns cometh unto me - HENCE IT IS EFFECTUAL DRAWING as "EVERY MAN" cometh to Christ.


It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Finally, Jesus has already stated that ALL the Father gives to him shall come to him (Jn. 6:37) and "OF ALL the Father gives him I SHALL LOSE NOTHING."

Again, the latter phrase in John 6:44 confirms that the "him" that is drawn is the "him" that will be raised to eternal life. These are the "they" of verse 45 and "ALL" of them shall be taught of God and "EVERY MAN" so taught (hear and learn) "cometh unto me - that defines drawing in this context as EFFECTUAL as there is no exceptions to the "ALL" or to "EVERY MAN" as they come to Christ.

I agree and I already said God is not calling the whole world now.

"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

 

[Benoni]

GE:

Even the mighty Barth tried hard to be one .... and failed.

And the failure Juergen Moltmann failed .....

And right back into the first centuries AD many have tried .... and failed.

The only way you will succeed is by cutting out ALL of Scripture and the very principle of: "s-a-l-v-a-t-i-o-n-and-Christianity".

I am a spiritual man; not a religious man and believe with in my spirit that Jesus is a savior and a just God.

His wrath is the wrath of the lamb, not the lion.

Can you please explain to me why the wrath of God in the NT is the lambs wrath..... Not the LIONS?

The Lion’s wrath is the wrath of man’s religion, their misunderstanding of the lambs nature and character, authority and nature. They base it on their religious understanding of God’ Word which God’s Word declares “the letter that killeth”. I on the other hand believe in the Logos or quickening spiritual Word. Both of these are God’s Word, one is the outer hull, the chaff; the other is quickening life which only God can open to those (singular) who have ears to hear.

I could quote many men of God from our past, men like George Washington, Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln who were Christian Universalist; but what does this prove. It is God’s Spirit not man’s religion that leads and guides us into all truth.

 

[Benoni]

GE:
Thank you Doc; this comes as a refreshing breeze in the desert of hopelessness of a certain kind of christianity.

"Hopelessness" What a perfect word for someone who believes in the wrath of the lion.

 

[Winman]

Benoni

You are in absolute error if you think that all men who are called will come. It is shown numerous times in the scriptures that God calls men who refuse to come.

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

That God calls men who refuse to listen and will not come is shown MANY times in the scriptures. You are in error.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I am a Christian and I have not been quoting Calvin; I have been quoting God's Word; if I have not please point this out to me.

I am a Christian Univeralist.

Well, you know what, Benoni, I've read some of your posts and you have the habit of saying "can you please explain", "can you please point out", "show me", yet you do not explain basically what you believe in.

What exactly is a Christian Universalist ?
Do you believe ALL men, without exception, will be saved in the end ?
Do you believe ALL men, without exception, were redeemed by Christ ?
What DO you believe ?

You came in to this forum challenging every Tom, Dick, and Harry and sounding like YOU and YOU ALONE are the keeper of God's word, yet you have not given one single post as to what YOU believe.

Enlighten us, please.

 

[Winman]

Well, you know what, Benoni, I've read some of your posts and you have the habit of saying "can you please explain", "can you please point out", "show me", yet you do not explain basically what you believe in.

What exactly is a Christian Universalist ?
Do you believe ALL men, without exception, will be saved in the end ?
Do you believe ALL men, without exception, were redeemed by Christ ?
What DO you believe ?

You came in to this forum challenging every Tom, Dick, and Harry and sounding like YOU and YOU ALONE are the keeper of God's word, yet you have not given one single post as to what YOU believe.

Enlighten us, please.

Well, on another thread he quotes Ray Prinzing of the Sirius 8 Ministry. Pretty strange stuff.

http://www.sigler.org/sirius8/

Although there may be some foreign ideas that come before you, Sirius 8 Ministy bases it's principle premise on the understanding that ALL men ARE presently saved, without sin and none are hell bound into internal punishment. We follow the belief and understanding of 2 Cor 5:19 wherein "God was in Christ, Re-concilling the World (cosmos) unto Himself, NOT imputing their (our) trespasses against them, and has given unto us the ministry of Re-concilliation." From this basic principle of truth, we go deeper into Spirit Reality and understanding.

Beam me up Scotty!

 

[Benoni]

Well, on another thread he quotes Ray Prinzing of the Sirius 8 Ministry. Pretty strange stuff.

http://www.sigler.org/sirius8/

Yes very strange to those who do not have spiritual ears; but religious ears.

It is called a mytery; something hidden from those who follow the teachings of man.

 

[Benoni]

Well, you know what, Benoni, I've read some of your posts and you have the habit of saying "can you please explain", "can you please point out", "show me", yet you do not explain basically what you believe in.

What exactly is a Christian Universalist ?
Do you believe ALL men, without exception, will be saved in the end ?
Do you believe ALL men, without exception, were redeemed by Christ ?
What DO you believe ?

You came in to this forum challenging every Tom, Dick, and Harry and sounding like YOU and YOU ALONE are the keeper of God's word, yet you have not given one single post as to what YOU believe.

Enlighten us, please.

Yes to all of your question. I believe in Jesus as a savior and a just judge; what do you beliueve in?

But no I am not alone.

Maybe the problem is religious men do not allow something outside of their religous man made creeds, dogmas and systems. God is just too big and awesome to fit in any man made box be it a broken cistern ot a denomination.

Lev 21:16 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

17Speak unto Aaron, saying, Whosoever he be of thy seed in their generations that hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God.

18For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous,

19Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded,

20Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken;

21No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.

 

[Benoni]

Benoni

You are in absolute error if you think that all men who are called will come. It is shown numerous times in the scriptures that God calls men who refuse to come.

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

That God calls men who refuse to listen and will not come is shown MANY times in the scriptures. You are in error.

I never said that. God is not calling all people NOW.

God is not calling all people now. Man has a total freewill or choice to reject God. He does not have a freewill or choice to believe until God first quickens him. John 6:33 and Eph. 2 1-8.


"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39).

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.

Here is another one from Ray...."For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23). There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST. The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam. But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself. From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time. (Ray Prinzing)

 

[Benoni]

Benoni

You are in absolute error if you think that all men who are called will come. It is shown numerous times in the scriptures that God calls men who refuse to come.

Luke 7:32 They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

That God calls men who refuse to listen and will not come is shown MANY times in the scriptures. You are in error.

Where does it say God called any one in these verses?

 

[Winman]

Well, I would disagree with you. God is indeed calling all men NOW.

Could you go into detail and explain exactly what you mean when you say God is not calling people now please?

 

[Winman]

Where does it say God called any one in these verses?

It is going to be tough to talk to you, seeing how you could not see the words "calling" and "call" in those verses. I mean, if you are oblivious to the Word of God, how can I communicate with you?