Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.

[pinoybaptist]

Yours is a very strange fire, Benoni.
First you said in your early post on this thread that God is the cause of Adam and Eve's fall.
Then you ignored the questions that I asked which were logical with your assertion that God is the author of the fall.
Of course, I took that to mean God is the cause, or originator of the fall, or the designer, the plotter, so if that is not so, correct me.

Now, let me see.

So, ALL men without exception have been redeemed, or saved, by the blood of Christ, and, God is the priest of, or for mankind ?
Is that a fair interpretation of what you are saying ?

If it is, then what is hell for, and what is the lake of fire for ?
I need an explanation, not a statement that I am deceived.

What was the purpose of the fall of mankind, and, if, after all, God will save everyone just the same, why does He have to send His only begotten Son to a cruel death ?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Please if you are going to attack someone’s believe let us use God’s Word not our opinion. Universalism is not unbiblical; it is just un-orthodox, orthodoxy is Biblical in the context of Baby-lon. Notice who the false prophet; notice the content of the verse.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

It's heresy to teach against what Gods word is very clear about. You have been shown over and over "from the word" ,but you refute all. Damnable heresies is exactly what your defending "Universalism" and this "wisdom" is demonic....not from above. You can deny the law of gravity but try jumping off a building and see what will happen. You can deny Hell and eternal judgment but only to find in the end that fire does indeed burn.

 

[Dr. Walter]

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

This is what you are preaching not me; notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations to billions, total annihilation and destruction , perish etc.

Your whole doctrine centers on damnations, eternal torture, and the pagan word hell; you are the one preaching heresies of damnation; not me.

Now prove your point using the Bible instead of your bias opinion. So if Universalism is heresey please chapter and verse?

Now prove your point using the Bible instead of your bias opinion. So if Universalism is heresy please chapter and verse?

You are misrepresenting what Peter is saying here. He is not saying that the doctrine of the false prophets is eternal torture but rather their false doctrine is their denial of the Lord that bought them and for that denial they will bring "UPON THEMSELVES" eternal punishment just as all who deny the Lord (Mt. 24:46).

Your false doctrine is the same as the Sadducees in the days of Jesus and Paul. The Pharisees held to eternal punishment and used the valley of Gehenna as a visual illustration of eternal fire and suffering to threaten those who disobeyed God. Both Jesus and Paul sided with the Pharisees against the Saduccees;

 

[Jedi Knight]

Your false doctrine is the same as the Sadducees in the days of Jesus and Paul. The Pharisees held to eternal punishment and used the valley of Gehenna as a visual illustration of eternal fire and suffering to threaten those who disobeyed God. Both Jesus and Paul sided with the Pharisees against the Saduccees;

Amen and Amen!

 

[Benoni]

You are misrepresenting what Peter is saying here. He is not saying that the doctrine of the false prophets is eternal torture but rather their false doctrine is their denial of the Lord that bought them and for that denial they will bring "UPON THEMSELVES" eternal punishment just as all who deny the Lord (Mt. 24:46).

This is total hogwash and spin; your a doctor I assume should know the Greek.

Your false doctrine is the same as the Sadducees in the days of Jesus and Paul. The Pharisees held to eternal punishment and used the valley of Gehenna as a visual illustration of eternal fire and suffering to threaten those who disobeyed God. Both Jesus and Paul sided with the Pharisees against the Saduccees;

Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people or the city dump. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment fire.

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

Notice the word “brother” never you find the words heathen, sinner, lost, unbeliever with the word Gehenna.

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is no spin. That is exactly what the text says in English "UPON THEMSELVES" not upon others.

People are cast into "gehenna" FIRE. Gehenna is not hades and so Revelation 20:14-15 all who are not written in the lamb's book of Life are cast into the "lake of fire" - this is Gehenna as both "hades" and "death" are cast into it.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Do those listed in Revelation 21:8 and Rev. 20:12-15 sound like they are not SINNERS and unbelievers to you???????????

You have enough troubles just with reading English much less the Greek.

This is total hogwash and spin; your a doctor I assume should know the Greek.





Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people or the city dump. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment fire.

Matt. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna) fire.

Notice the word “brother” never you find the words heathen, sinner, lost, unbeliever with the word Gehenna.

 

[Benoni]

Dr. Walter;1566425]This is no spin. That is exactly what the text says in English "UPON THEMSELVES" not upon others.

People are cast into "gehenna" FIRE. Gehenna is not hades and so Revelation 20:14-15 all who are not written in the lamb's book of Life are cast into the "lake of fire" - this is Gehenna as both "hades" and "death" are cast into it.

Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Do those listed in Revelation 21:8 and Rev. 20:12-15 sound like they are not SINNERS and unbelievers to you???????????

You have enough troubles just with reading English much less the Greek.

So the doctor has lowered himself to the nonchristian nature of personal attacks.

The Lake of Fire is spiritual not literal. No where does it say John was being literal in any since of the word in the Book of Revelation. Unless you can show me using God’s word not your opinion John was being literal in any sense. The Bible declares john was in "spirit on the Lord's day". Yes God will punish the wicked. But not eternally. You see the world eternal does not work with man for man had a beginning. How can some thing created be eternal? Besides the Bible clearly shows us where religious men have made so many errors in the translation of the Greek word aion and aionias and the Hebrew word olan. these words simply means age or ages... limited duration.

 

[psalms109:31]

Best its our doctrine

αἰώνιος
Also means eternal an age without beginning or end, we can't just pick a definition that best fits our belief system. I wouldn't ask anyone to a chance on their age because it could be very well be eternity.

 

[Benoni]

Agely

αἰώνιος
Also means eternal an age without beginning or end, we can't just pick a definition that best fits our belief system. I wouldn't ask anyone to a chance on their age because it could be very well be eternity.

No this is not true. Problem is God's people just take things literally but God's deepness is always hidden. The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box. The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following.

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived. God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

 

[psalms109:31]

Fear of God

They feared and also translated "reverence" the Lord when they translated the scripture as if God would strike them down dead as the one who carried the arc wrong. Today when many try to translate the scripture they don't fear also translated "reverence"the Lord.

Those who are in Christ don't have to face condemnation eternal hell, your purifying fire.

I'll stick with eternal

 

[DHK]

No this is not true. Problem is God's people just take things literally but God's deepness is always hidden. The real problem with words like eternal everlasting and for ever and ever is the Babylonian religious system that refuse to look outside of their man made religious box. The seminaries keep puppeting the same old doctrines of damnations generation after generation. Occasionally you will find a Bible scholar willing to agree with the following.

Being a graduate of both "colleges" and a seminary, what you say is false. I am wondering what kind of education you have though?

A careful study of the Greek word “aionios” (translated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” and “forever and ever” in our English translations) shows that it comes from the Greek noun “aion” which always means “an indeterminate period of time.” It is a most unfortunate thing that the translators of old chose to translate “aionios” from the Latin language rather than the Greek from which the word is derived.

This is false. God's Word was written in Greek. All of our MSS are written in Greek (over 5,000 of them). Though we do have the Latin Vulgate, it is rather insignificant compared to the Greek.
BTW, did you know that the Hebrew Canon of Scripture was completed before Latin even came into existence. Whereas Greek originated somewhere between 2500-1700 B.C. At the time of Christ Latin was a relatively new language. The NT was written in Greek because that was the language that God chose and God commanded his servants to write in.

God’s punishment will not last forever as is commonly taught, but will only last for the ages and only UNTIL God’s purpose for it is complete.

The theology of Benoni based on imagination.

Eternal, eternity, etc. is not actually found in Scripture though in some aspects applied through inference of propositions. The problem is that the Greek words which were translated to "eternal" actually do not translate properly in English because there is no word in English which translates it properly. In this case, the word is "AIONIOS" and it is a descriptive adjective which just means "of, or in, or belonging to, or coming from, or resmbling, or befitting the AION.

I believe you are wrong on this as well. Let's have facts not opinions. Where is your authority for this?

AION is a noun meaning, "A period of time, or perpetuity of time, or definitive age, or unbroken age." It simply means an age with unknown measure which can be indefinitive or definitive.

An age. Plural--ages. Always look at the context in which it is used. A word used out of context has no meaning at all.

So literally the word "AIONIOS" being translated as "Eternal" would more accurately be defined as "agely"; however since "agely" is not a real word, that leaves the English language without a literal translation for the word "AIONIOS".

Wrong again. You speak without any context.

So anytime you saw Jesus say "Eternal" this and "Eternal" that, he didn't say "perpetuality of time" but rather an indeterminate duration that is neither perpetual or definifitive.

Words have meanings. You don't have the authority to change the meaning when it doesn't fit your "theology." Too bad.

 

[Don]

Of course the Holy Spirit quickened them; how else does a carnal unspiritual person who is totally dead spiritually can get saved? I already posted Ephesians 2: 1-8 which must be read in context and John 6;44 and no one so far has posted one verse in support of man having a choice or freewill to save himself.



This is so true. No I am not assuming; I posted how God’s Spirit saves all of us. Not one verse has been presented to me about the unspiritual man saving himself; every verse that has been given either pertained to those already saved or was from the Old Testament. You are the one assuming.

First, you need to understand something: I do not espouse that we "save ourselves." That's unbiblical. Christ saved us with His sacrifice on the cross.

HOWEVER, as scripture makes plain, we must still accept His gift. You need proof? Look again at James 4:8 about us drawing nigh unto God, and He will draw nigh unto us.

You need more proof about us having to make a decision whether to accept or reject?

John 1:2 - whosoever received, not whosoever was called.
John 3:16 - whosoever believes, not whosoever is called.
Acts 13:38 - the apostles tell the listeners that everyone who believes, not everyone who is called.
Romans 1:16 - the gospel is the power of God for salvation for everyone who believes, not everyone who is called.
Romans 10:9 - if you believe, not "only those who are called"
Philippians 2:12 - "work out your own salvation"

I believe that John 6:44 is closely coupled with John 14:6; no man comes to the Father except through Jesus; and no one comes to Jesus except he is drawn by God. BUT, there is a point where a man must decide whether he believes or not. To deny that is to deny the multiple, multiple times the apostles preached to their listeners that they must choose Christ.

The rich young ruler, for example (my first example to you, which you wrote off as an example of rejection); he chose to reject Christ, which implicitly underscores the fact that he could have chosen the other way.

You have a filter over your eyes, my friend, that only allows you to see things one way. You must take that filter off and approach from the angle of "what if I'm wrong and all these others are correct?" Only then will you actually be able to truly defend your position from scripture.

The quickening you keep mentioning? Does not happen before we are saved; it happens upon our salvation. Re-read your verses with that in mind, and see what you think.

 

[Benoni]

They feared and also translated "reverence" the Lord when they translated the scripture as if God would strike them down dead as the one who carried the arc wrong. Today when many try to translate the scripture they don't fear also translated "reverence"the Lord.

Those who are in Christ don't have to face condemnation eternal hell, your purifying fire.

I'll stick with eternal

Obviously you know nothing about God’s fire if you thing God’s fire is not for believers.. Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable

Do you know anything about farming, the chaff is the outer (flesh) of the wheat until the wheat is mature the chaff and the wheat are the same and cannot be separated.

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


Praise god for His awesome fire.

 

[Benoni]

Being a graduate of both "colleges" and a seminary, what you say is false. I am wondering what kind of education you have though?

Well that is where your problem is; you have been so preprogrammed you cannot see beyond your religious man made walls. How can you go thought the narrow way with all this preconceived bias baggage. its just too narrow.

This is false. God's Word was written in Greek. All of our MSS are written in Greek (over 5,000 of them). Though we do have the Latin Vulgate, it is rather insignificant compared to the Greek.
BTW, did you know that the Hebrew Canon of Scripture was completed before Latin even came into existence. Whereas Greek originated somewhere between 2500-1700 B.C. At the time of Christ Latin was a relatively new language. The NT was written in Greek because that was the language that God chose and God commanded his servants to write in.

Yes it was written in Greek; but that does not mean that bias religious man did not insert some Latin when it fit their bias; this is so true with the word agely as I mentioned. There are many errors when it comes to mistranslations when it comes to the word aion, aionias and the Hebrew Olan, one is bad enough but you start searching the Bible there are far too many to believe these word can serious mean eternal, everlasting and forever and ever . Just search your bible it is so obvious.

The theology of Benoni based on imagination.

This is not my theology, there are thousand of God’s people who have came out of Baby-lon

I believe you are wrong on this as well. Let's have facts not opinions. Where is your authority for this?

God's Spiritual Word; it sure is not some dead cemetary or bias Bible School; God's Word declares the Holy Spirit will lead and guide us into all truth. But I forgot the holy Spirit does not reveal anything new to you.

An age. Plural--ages. Always look at the context in which it is used. A word used out of context has no meaning at all.

Amen.


aion or aionios
These two words are translated as well as mis-translated thirteen ways: eternal age, ages of ages, course, world, , since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and, never.

Now I understand what the bias translators have interpreted the Bible using these two words as mentioned above but it just does not add up in the Bible. God’s Word is perfect; with out error; but it is full of errors if we believe these translator and or translations

The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!

When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.

Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!

Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.

Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek. "Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).

Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations." That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.




Wrong again

. You speak without any context.

Words have meanings. You don't have the authority to change the meaning when it doesn't fit your "theology." Too bad.

This is true; I just pointed out some great examples of context how this word was not used in the right context; but as you notice above some false translator surely has changed God's Words so they can push their Heresies of damnations.

 

[Benoni]

First, you need to understand something: I do not espouse that we "save ourselves." That's unbiblical. Christ saved us with His sacrifice on the cross.

HOWEVER, as scripture makes plain, we must still accept His gift. You need proof? Look again at James 4:8 about us drawing nigh unto God, and He will draw nigh unto us.

You need more proof about us having to make a decision whether to accept or reject?

John 1:2 - whosoever received, not whosoever was called.
John 3:16 - whosoever believes, not whosoever is called.
.

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).


Let me start with John 3;16 you better look a lot closer at the original language (the letter killeth.) “And those who will not repent, perish. There is no "salvation for every man"; salvation is only for those who believe and receive Jesus, while they live”


The letter killeth, that is why God’s Word tells us to seek, ask and knock.


Let us look a little closer at this awesome verse especially the Strong’s Concordances reference <9999 >, it is worse then 666.

(KJV) John 3 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should (not perish,) should be omitted), but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (whosoever, should be "all") (believeth, should be that "all believing") in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

The following are a direct quote from Strong’s Concordance.

John 3:15
<9999 > should
<9999 > not
<9999 > perish,
<9999 > but

NT:9999

9999 inserted word (x);

This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Hebrew/Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.


Now we will look at a passage in the New Testament; viz., that precious declaration in John 3:16,

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son," etc. We will take into consideration verses 14-17 inclusive; first I will clear up several points of obscurity and error and then give the rendering as it should be.

In verse 15 the words "not perish but" should be omitted; according to the best authorities they have been interpolated, probably from the following verse; they are left out from the New Version.

Strong's Whosoever 3956 pas (pas);including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: KJV-- all (manner of, means), alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

The word "whosoever" in the l5th and l6th verses should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered
"all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

The word rendered "believeth," in the original is a participle, "believing"; the clause should read, "that all, believing in him should not," etc. The words, "believing in him," are explanatory, telling us how "all" are to be saved, viz, by believing in him. In the common version it will be noticed that the participle is, without authority, rendered by the verb "believeth," and the words, "whosoever believeth in him" are thereby made to have a conditional force, as though it read, if they believe in him, implying that some will not believe in him, and hence will perish, and be lost eternally.

But this is not a correct rendering of the original, as I have shown above; the clause is not conditional, but is thrown in, as a participial form, as explanatory of the manner of the world's salvation, by believing in him; this view is fully confirmed by the l9th verse; "for God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved."

Might be saved: Stong's 4982 sozo (sode'-zo); from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): KJV-- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be
(make) whole. The word “might” was added by the translator

Now I will give the whole passage as it ought to be.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the son of man be lifted up, that all,
believing in him. might have æonial life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son,
that all, believing in him, might not perish, but have æonial life. For God sent not his Son into the world
to condemn the world but that the world through him be saved."

Thus truthfully translated this passage is one of the grandest and most sweeping declarations of the final universal triumph of God's grace in the salvation of the world, contained in the Bible. It is positive and direct, and mighty enough, could they only appreciate it, to utterly silence all those narrow, shortsighted souls who think that God will only gain a partial victory over the devil, that he will not save the world, but only a portion of it, a vast number being eternally lost. It is very plain why the translators of the common version handled this passage as they did. Their creed would not allow them to accept it just as it reads; it required only a slight change to make it conform to their own idea. They insert the unusual rendering "whosoever," change believing to "believeth," and then, punctuating it accordingly, the passage is "tinkered" so as to harmonize with the creed. Thank God for deliverance from man made creeds!

"Let God be true, though every man be false" (Rom. 3:4).

Young’s Literal John 3:14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up, 15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during, 16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. 17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;

 

[DHK]

This is true; I just pointed out some great examples of context how this word was not used in the right context; but as you notice above some false translator surely has changed God's Words so they can push their Heresies of damnations.

1. You pointed out some definitions.
2. You pointed out some of their contexts.
3. However there is more than one context. There is a near context--that which you pointed out. There is also a broader context, the context of the entire passage, then the context of the entire chapter, then the context of the book, and even the context of the Bible itself. That is a lot of context to take into consideration. In other words when considering one word in its own near context, one cannot ignore the rest of the Bible.

You put the blame on "some false translator who surely has changed God's Words so that they can push their heresies of damnations."

Hogwash! It is not the translators. It is you!! You fail to keep the words and their contexts harmonized with the rest of the Bible, so that the Bible does not contradict itself. It is you that are contradicting the Bible. And you are pushing your heresies on this board.

 

[Benoni]

I believe that John 6:44 is closely coupled with John 14:6; no man comes to the Father except through Jesus; and no one comes to Jesus except he is drawn by God. BUT, there is a point where a man must decide whether he believes or not. To deny that is to deny the multiple, multiple times the apostles preached to their listeners that they must choose Christ.

The rich young ruler, for example (my first example to you, which you wrote off as an example of rejection); he chose to reject Christ, which implicitly underscores the fact that he could have chosen the other way.

You have a filter over your eyes, my friend, that only allows you to see things one way. You must take that filter off and approach from the angle of "what if I'm wrong and all these others are correct?" Only then will you actually be able to truly defend your position from scripture.

The quickening you keep mentioning? Does not happen before we are saved; it happens upon our salvation. Re-read your verses with that in mind, and see what you think.

Don,

believe that John 6:44 is closely coupled with John 14:6; no man comes to the Father except through Jesus; and no one comes to Jesus except he is drawn by God. BUT, there is a point where a man must decide whether he believes or not. To deny that is to deny the multiple, multiple times the apostles preached to their listeners that they must choose Christ.

Once God’s Spirit draws you there is no turning back; sure a man has to believe; but until God’s spirit quickens him there is no spiritual life to believe.



I never said someone cannot reject Christ; there are many levels of salvation and to be honest with you but most of God’s people have a religious experience not a spiritual one.

You have a filter over your eyes, my friend, that only allows you to see things one way. You must take that filter off and approach from the angle of "what if I'm wrong and all these others are correct?" Only then will you actually be able to truly defend your position from scripture.

No I do not have a filter over my eyes; how many times have I asked all of you about the priesthood of God and never got an answer from any of you. I quoted some verses earlier and never got a response because you have you all see scripture thought your religious bias eyes and your eyes have failed you.


ECLIPSE:
Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. (KJV)
Fail or ECLIPSE: Gk. 'ek', out, and 'leipein" to leave, and so it is used of the failing or eclipse of the sun or the moon. 1587 ekleipo-
1) fail
a) to leave out, to omit, to pass by
b) to leave, to quit
2) to fail
a) to leave off, to cease, to stop
b) used of the failing or the eclipse of the light of the sun and the moon

You see you have a large object like the moon covering your spiritual vision; it is blocking your view of the son/sun. It has to do with hearing and seeing when it comes to spiritual matters.

The quicken that Eph. 2 declares is the first part of the salvation experience notice where it is in context

The quickening you keep mentioning? Does not happen before we are saved; it happens upon our salvation. Re-read your verses with that in mind, and see what you think.

Eph 2:1-8 gives a clear view in context how the salvation process is accomplished in carnal man. God’s Spirit has to quicken us out of our dead spiritual state. Being dead spiritually is so easy to understand. Have you ever see some one dead? Well a spiritual man is dead to hearing seeing, receiving God and all the man made doctrine of freewill or choice cannot and will not waken carnal man out of that dead spiritual state.


"QUICK ."Quick means living and active — LIFE-GIVING! making it active, operative, energizing and effective, notice the context of Ephesians which shows us step by step how the salvation process works.

Eph, 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast

Then you refer to: “Rev. 3:20” which is clearly speaking to the church realm.

Rev. 3:20

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. 'IF' any man HEAR MY VOICE and open the door, I will come in to him and will sup with him and he with Me."

 

[psalms109:31]

hell fire

Matthew 25:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


What happens to his body I don't care. It is not who i am. I'll be given a new body, but what is on the inside those who trust in Christ, who are in Christ will never face condemnation hell fire.

The scripture teaches those who are in Christ will not face condemnation. Baptizing with fire and the Spirit is totally different than the hell fire.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[Benoni]

1. You pointed out some definitions.
2. You pointed out some of their contexts.
3. However there is more than one context. There is a near context--that which you pointed out. There is also a broader context, the context of the entire passage, then the context of the entire chapter, then the context of the book, and even the context of the Bible itself. That is a lot of context to take into consideration. In other words when considering one word in its own near context, one cannot ignore the rest of the Bible.

You put the blame on "some false translator who surely has changed God's Words so that they can push their heresies of damnations."

Hogwash! It is not the translators. It is you!! You fail to keep the words and their contexts harmonized with the rest of the Bible, so that the Bible does not contradict itself. It is you that are contradicting the Bible. And you are pushing your heresies on this board.

This has nothing to do with context... This has to do with error. You are talking about error here. Errors that condemn billion and billions of people God has never called; down right malicious deliberate errors made by religious man in the Bible. Your heresy of damnations are full of man made errors and no matter what I show you it does not matter. One error is enough and there are plenty more’ how many error do you need to see that Jesus is a savior not a monster. Why are these heresies of damnation so impotent to you?

I keep asking you all about the priesthood of God?

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

 

[Benoni]

Matthew 25:
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."


What happens to his body I don't care. It is not who i am. I'll be given a new body, but what is on the inside those who trust in Christ, who are in Christ will never face condemnation hell fire.

The scripture teaches those who are in Christ will not face condemnation. Baptizing with fire and the Spirit is totally different than the hell fire.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

It should be clear that if the "eternal life" of Mat. 25:41 is really the "life of the ages", then the "eternal punishment" is likewise an age-lasting correction. The Diaglott says, "Depart from Me, you cursed ones, into that aionian fire... and these shall go away into a cutting-off age lasting." The Bible in Modern English by Farrar Fenton reads, "And these He will dismiss into a LONG CORRECTION." Rotherham's New Testament says, "These shall go away into age-abiding correction." Young's Literal translation renders, "And these shall go away to punishment age-during."

The word punishment is from the Greek KOLASIS which means simply that - punishment. But it comes from the root KOLAZO which reveals the true nature of the punishment. KOLAZO according to Strong's Concordance, means "to curtail" or "to chastise". The word means "a pruning" according to Liddell and Scott's Greek English Lexicon. it is so used all through the Greek language. That punishment of which the Christ spoke was the very thing that helped me to see the glorious HOPE for all who are unbelievers or rebellious against God - because the word punishment there means chastisement or pruning. I saw in a moment that it was not the destruction of the man; it was the correcting of the man. it was not the destruction of the tree; it was the cutting back, and the pruning, that it might bring forth fruit. Some rightly reason that KOLASIS cannot mean corrective punishment or pruning if it is everlasting. But everlasting is itself wrong - who ever It is age-lasting punishment, heard of EVERLASTING CORRECTION! age-abiding correction, age-during pruning.

There are those who did not enter into His life in ages past, there are those who do not enter into His life in this present age, and there shall be those who will not enter into His life in the age to come. But in the world where God is the King you can count on it - every man will finally have to face up to his waywardness, and being thoroughly disciplined, broken, and purged of self-will, until he is prepared to respond to the love of Christ, to advance from the realm of punishment into the blessing of HIS LIFE and victory. If you do not punish a criminal for his improvement, for what do you punish him? There are just two right reasons - to protect society and to restore the criminal to society improved by the punishment. The "aionian" punishment which will come to every sinner who goes to hell will be a punishment that will break his stubborn, rebellious spirit and bring him back to God!

It is most regrettable that many Bible translators have been careless in their translation of words that concern the ages. The common thought seems to have been that any age following this present age must be identical with eternity, which, of course, is gross error, and we get ourselves into all manner of confusion by thinking that such is the case. For instance, according to the King James version Jesus, speaking of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is clearly quoted as saying, "He that blasphemes the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness" (Mk. 3:29). Because of this faulty rendering we have concocted the fallacious notion of an unpardonable sin. But the Emphatic Diaglott translates the passage correctly thus: "Whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness to the age, but is exposed to aionian (age-lasting) judgment." Likewise also the passage in Mat. 12:32...... Whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." The word world here, as the margin of your Bible will probably indicate, is translated from the Greek word AION, which means age or a period of time. See also Young's Concordance. Hence the translation should be, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age" (Diaglott). Jesus was born in the age of law. Therefore, when He spoke of this age, He was speaking of the age of law, the age to come being the Church age in which we now live.

God's precious people, saturated and literally "oozing" with the false doctrines of the harlot Church systems have long viewed God's judgments as a vindictive action prompted by a motive for revenge and supported by a tumultuous wrath that must be pacified. NOT SO! Such is a gross caricature of our God! His mercy and grace are super-abundant, His mercy endures to all ages, and though He finds it necessary to chasten, His wisdom and righteousness produce a just and pure chastisement conditioned to correct the situation, and bring forth a creature prepared to respond to the delivering and redeeming power of God. ALL OF GOD'S JUDGMENTS ARE CORRECTIVE IN NATURE, conceived in His wisdom, motivated by His love, administered by His power, and used to work out the divine purpose, into our good, and unto His praise!
This does not deny that "the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men" (Rom. 1:18). There is no doubt whatever as to the fact that the Bible clearly teaches wrath - not only in this age but in that which is to come and in dim and distant ages beyond that. But it is a just wrath; the judgment is everywhere said to be ACCORDING TUR WORKS (Ps. 62:12; Rom. 2:6; Rev. 20:12-13). The punishment will fit the offense, and it is for a purpose. If we teach that it is endless we will have to tear the Bible all to pieces.

Those who are hard and impenitent of heart treasure up for themselves wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God who will render to every man according to his works. If you don't believe it, ask the antediluvians, ask Korah and his followers, ask the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, ask the Jews who passed through the holocaust, and ask all the rest of men who have lived and died trampling under foot the righteousness and mercy of the Lord. To them that are rebellious and obey not the truth but obey unrighteousness shall be wrath, indignation, tribulation and anguish upon every soul. All that the Scriptures actually teach about the wrath of God will surely come to pass. The wrath of God is an awful thing and it is not my purpose to minimize it in the least. I do rejoice, however, in the knowledge that it will accomplish its work until all men are broken before God and call upon Him for mercy full and abundant.

Thank God - He has a plan! And it will work. You can count on it. Grace has intervened. Love will conquer. The wisdom of God will be vindicated. God will actually WIN! Hallelujah! Isn't THAT good news! The devil will have none left to possess. The grave will claim not one victim. Death will hold no more power over any creature anywhere in all God's vast universe, for death shall be DESTROYED. Sin and rebellion shall raise their ugly heads no more, for God will be all in all. YOU CAN COUNT ON IT! THAT IS GOD'S PLAN!