Freewill towards salvation is not Scriptural.

[Benoni]

Well, I would disagree with you. God is indeed calling all men NOW.

Could you go into detail and explain exactly what you mean when you say God is not calling people now please?

Let me start with the Priesthood of God; this is really quite a hidden message in scripture. But let me start with a few pieces.

Pieces....

Gen 37:3 Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age: and he made him a coat of many colours (Heb) Pieces).
KJV

Hebrew OT:6446

Pieces: pac (pas); from OT:6461; properly, the palm (of the hand) or sole (of the foot) [compare OT:6447]; by implication (plural) a long and sleeved tunic (perhaps simply a wide one; from the original sense of the root, i.e. of many breadths):

I like the thought of pieces more; you see it is line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little there a little that is how you find truth.

Today we have all kinds of religious clothing; Baptist clothing, Catholic clothing etc. pieces.


Priesthood.

The priesthood of scripture is something very foreign to many believers understanding; they are so caught up in their doctrines of damnations they do not see the glory.

Take note in the word Zion/Sion.

Obadiah 1:21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion (the high places of Ruleship in the kingdom) to judge the mount of Esau (Flesh); and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.


Ex. 19:5-6: "And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS." The full text reads, "Now, therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and an holy nation."

God’s intentions from the first was He desired a kingdom of Priest but the Children of Israel were not equipped for they did not have the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them in all truth. So God called forth men like Moses and David as a type of the Priesthood to come. David was a perfect example of this royal Priesthood.

We could not think of a disobedient people being for God - "a peculiar treasure, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." The apostle Peter speaks of the saints as "children of obedience"; they are begotten of that nature, and characterized by it. He speaks of "being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding Word of God" (I Pet. 1:14, 23). Man after the flesh is born of corruptible seed, but there is another generation born of incorruptible seed, who desire earnestly the pure milk of the Word, and then the strong meat of the Word, and who grow up into the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ by it. They become "a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a purpose" (I Pet. 2:9). Just what the Lord proposed in Exodus chapter 19.


Acts 15:16-18

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.


What is the Tabernacle of David?

Revelations 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

I work afternoons so I cannot go into a lot of detail now.

 

[Benoni]

It is going to be tough to talk to you, seeing how you could not see the words "calling" and "call" in those verses. I mean, if you are oblivious to the Word of God, how can I communicate with you?

I did see those words. But I did not see "God called". I have ready given verses on God drawing and quickening so if you are claiming to refute What God's Word has declared then please let us total message not a word out of context.

 

[psalms109:31]

Can't trust him tell He calls you.

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

What do you think God is doing through us when we tell Christ message to believe, trust in Christ and be saved or not and be condemned?

 

[Winman]

I did see those words. But I did not see "God called". I have ready given verses on God drawing and quickening so if you are claiming to refute What God's Word has declared then please let us total message not a word out of context.

Well, do more than see them, believe them. And in the parable of the kingdom Jesus said it was like a king who called guests to the wedding of his son. Are you telling me you can't figure out that the king is God the Father, and that the son is Jesus? I think you know quite well that is what Jesus was saying.

 

[Benoni]

2 Corinthians 5:
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

What do you think God is doing through us when we tell Christ message to believe, trust in Christ and be saved or not and be condemned?

First of all the non spiritual carnal man cannot believe for he has not been called YET. The word condemn can also mean "damn", judged, probated. Jesus judgements are just.

 

[Benoni]

Well, do more than see them, believe them. And in the parable of the kingdom Jesus said it was like a king who called guests to the wedding of his son. Are you telling me you can't figure out that the king is God the Father, and that the son is Jesus? I think you know quite well that is what Jesus was saying.

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Yes this is a parable and yes the settingis those already in the kingdom for they were his servants. These are believers not the lost.

Just like the 10 virgins, a virgin is a believer.

So is a goat.

 

[psalms109:31]

First of all the non spiritual carnal man cannot believe for he has not been called YET. The word condemn can also mean "damn", judged, probated. Jesus judgements are just.

The words of Jesus is Spirit and Life it is the one's who listen and learn from the Father (because the words of Jesus is the Fathers) that come. If we follow the condemned path we walk away from Spirit and Life.

 

[Winman]

Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

Yes this is a parable and yes the settingis those already in the kingdom for they were his servants. These are believers not the lost.

Just like the 10 virgins, a virgin is a believer.

So is a goat.

Oh, so God is going to burn up believers? Have you actually ever read this parable?

Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

You need to get away from strange teachings and read the scriptures. God called these men, and they refused to come, so God was angry and destroyed them. This is not speaking of saved people, it is speaking of unbelievers.

 

[Don]

Problem with Calvin is he did not understand the priesthood of God.

Are we not speaking about God here when it comes to salvation? Creator and master of all things, Lord of lords, King of Kings, the Alpha and the Omega and all the Greek letters in between. Or are we speaking of carnal man who has no spiritual will, who is dead in trespasses and sin, who’s spiritual understanding is a dead as a ten year old cow rotting in a woods somewhere.

You are placing your faith in “will” of carnal man having according to God’s Word not the traditions of man’s ten thousand religion who believe in freewill or choice is scriptural; which no one here or in any forum can back up unless something is assumed just like you are assuming in Acts that God’s Holy Spirit did not first quicken these 3000 souls . I on the other hand quoted John 6:44 and the context of the first part of Ephesians 2 which clearly declares how God saves us.

1 Corinthians 15 clearly is a lot of things and I guess the proper thing would start a thread on such a awesome and beautiful truth.

1. "you are assuming in Acts that God's Holy Spirit did not first quicken these 3,000 souls."

The problem with that statement is that scripture does not say that the Holy Spirit quickened those souls. Because scripture does not say one way or the other, you have to draw upon your understanding of scripture to make a conclusion one way or the other about the subject.

In other words, you, sir, are assuming that the Holy Spirit quickened those 3000 souls (based on your understanding of scripture).

2. Are you assuming that the verb "draw" in John 6:44 is active? Other commentaries converse on the possibility that the verb is intended to be passive. The example being, a moth drawn to a flame. The flame doesn't draw the moth; the moth is drawn to it. Just as we poor creatures are drawn to the truth, and to God's holy "flame."

3. Many scriptures have been offered to you; it is your firm belief in your present understanding that keeps you from giving them consideration.

4. I understand your problem with Calvin; doesn't mean you're not espousing Calvinistic principles.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Christian Universalist? So you think EVERY person will be saved in the end? That's Heresy 101!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I am a spiritual man; not a religious man and believe with in my spirit that Jesus is a savior and a just God.

His wrath is the wrath of the lamb, not the lion.

Can you please explain to me why the wrath of God in the NT is the lambs wrath..... Not the LIONS?

The Lion’s wrath is the wrath of man’s religion, their misunderstanding of the lambs nature and character, authority and nature. They base it on their religious understanding of God’ Word which God’s Word declares “the letter that killeth”. I on the other hand believe in the Logos or quickening spiritual Word. Both of these are God’s Word, one is the outer hull, the chaff; the other is quickening life which only God can open to those (singular) who have ears to hear.

I could quote many men of God from our past, men like George Washington, Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln who were Christian Universalist; but what does this prove. It is God’s Spirit not man’s religion that leads and guides us into all truth.

GE:
Jesus the meek is the Lion of Juda. He shall go forth to destroy with the sword and cast into the fires of hell in the day that He shall come again Woe three times and the plague sevenfold are the vengeance of the angry God .... don't be mistaken, ever.

 

[Don]

One last verse for you, Benoni:

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

 

[Benoni]

Baby goat

Oh, so God is going to burn up believers? Have you actually ever read this parable?

Matt 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

You need to get away from strange teachings and read the scriptures. God called these men, and they refused to come, so God was angry and destroyed them. This is not speaking of saved people, it is speaking of unbelievers.

I agree with you it would be a strange teaching if some one was believing God’s needed to burn up anyone, especially believers; but this is not what the original language shows us. God's fires are spiritual in nature. The same fire that God's spirit poured out on the day of pentecost is the same fire in the lake of divine purging.


Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:


Please some one turn the light on.

A sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is a very loyal to His master and eats only the best of the grasses. As a boy I notice the farmer would give the sheep the second and third cuttings of grass; full of leaves and substance. A cow would eat the first cutting the lesser of the hay crop, made up of stems and little leaf compared to the earlier cuttings. Of course a goat will eat any garbage as long as it is in front of his nose.


Now I want to go to Matt 25:32 and I note; many are assuming a goat is a non believer, all it is your assumption, look at the Greek; I see a goat as an immature believer (baby goat); who are separated because of their spiritual immaturity. Many are mature in their little religious box; but are immature spiritually; they have that immature goat nature.

Sheep Separated from Goats

Matt 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divided his sheep from the goats:


Where on the other hand a goat or the Greek word (eriphos or kid; baby goat) So I see it as God separating his Sheep mature from His immature kids; spiritually speaking)
NT:2056


1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.

On the other hand a goat is also a clean animal, now if you the verse referred to a pig or unclean animal I would agree with the traditional teaching. A pig would be a great example of the unjust/heathen; but a goat was used all though out the OT as a sacrificial animal’ so how can it be the unjust? (scrape goat); and why would God burn up a baby goat in everlasting fire; what did the baby goat do?

Actually nothing; the unqualified and unjust and bias translators obvious made a grave error in the word everlasting and should of translated it ages (NT:166 Aionios). The word means ages; limit duration. The has happen a number of times in scripture and can be easily proven by the context of the verse.


But according to these bias translators God is going to send a baby goat to everlasting fire.

Matt 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

So many of God’s people are goats and all they eat is garbage; in other words damnable heresies or heresies of damnation/condemnations/ all those heresies that condemn people to torture.

Is not a goat a clean animal; how can a goat be the unsaved; the unsaved are defiled; Jesus was a Jew and knew all the clean and unclean animal. So you are saying we should throw away all the OT types and dismiss them and replace them with bias Christian assumptions?

 

[Benoni]

1. "you are assuming in Acts that God's Holy Spirit did not first quicken these 3,000 souls."

The problem with that statement is that scripture does not say that the Holy Spirit quickened those souls. Because scripture does not say one way or the other, you have to draw upon your understanding of scripture to make a conclusion one way or the other about the subject.

In other words, you, sir, are assuming that the Holy Spirit quickened those 3000 souls (based on your understanding of scripture).

2. Are you assuming that the verb "draw" in John 6:44 is active? Other commentaries converse on the possibility that the verb is intended to be passive. The example being, a moth drawn to a flame. The flame doesn't draw the moth; the moth is drawn to it. Just as we poor creatures are drawn to the truth, and to God's holy "flame."

3. Many scriptures have been offered to you; it is your firm belief in your present understanding that keeps you from giving them consideration.

4. I understand your problem with Calvin; doesn't mean you're not espousing Calvinistic principles.

Of course the Holy Spirit quickened them; how else does a carnal unspiritual person who is totally dead spiritually can get saved? I already posted Ephesians 2: 1-8 which must be read in context and John 6;44 and no one so far has posted one verse in support of man having a choice or freewill to save himself.

The problem with that statement is that scripture does not say that the Holy Spirit quickened those souls. Because scripture does not say one way or the other, you have to draw upon your understanding of scripture to make a conclusion one way or the other about the subject.

This is so true. No I am not assuming; I posted how God’s Spirit saves all of us. Not one verse has been presented to me about the unspiritual man saving himself; every verse that has been given either pertained to those already saved or was from the Old Testament. You are the one assuming.

 

[Benoni]

Christian Universalist? So you think EVERY person will be saved in the end? That's Heresy 101!

Please if you are going to attack someone’s believe let us use God’s Word not our opinion. According to Rome all protestants were heretics; that too was an opinion from religious men NOT GOD's Word.

Universalism is not unbiblical; it is just un-orthodox, orthodoxy is Biblical in the context of Baby-lon. Notice who the false prophet; notice the content of the verse.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Strong’s NT:684 apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

This is what you are preaching not me; notice what the Greek says the false prophets bring. Do they bring the message that God will save all; do they bring the good news of salvation to the whole earth. No they bring damnations to billions, total annihilation and destruction , perish etc.

Your whole doctrine centers on damnations, eternal torture, and the pagan word hell; you are the one preaching heresies of damnation; not me.

Now prove your point using the Bible instead of your bias opinion. So if Universalism is heresey please chapter and verse?

Now prove your point using the Bible instead of your bias opinion. So if Universalism is heresy please chapter and verse?

 

[Benoni]

GE:
Jesus the meek is the Lion of Juda. He shall go forth to destroy with the sword and cast into the fires of hell in the day that He shall come again Woe three times and the plague sevenfold are the vengeance of the angry God .... don't be mistaken, ever.

Jesus may be the Lion of Judah for He is many things but His wrath is the wrath of the lamb.

Please explane the wrath of the lamb?

His fires are spiritual in nature; why would a spiritual God need literal fire? To cook hotdogs? hell to is a pagan would and never should of been mistraslated in scripture.,

His sword is the Word of God.

His plagues are spiritual in nature.

 

[Benoni]

One last verse for you, Benoni:

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

And your point?

 

[Winman]

I agree with you it would be a strange teaching if some one was believing God’s needed to burn up anyone, especially believers; but this is not what the original language shows us. God's fires are spiritual in nature. The same fire that God's spirit poured out on the day of pentecost is the same fire in the lake of divine purging.

It is going to be almost impossible to communicate with you, because you have a different definition for everything in the scriptures than I do. All I can say is I believe you are in extreme error. Of course, you believe the same of me.

But if you believe all people are saved, you are in tremendous error. I don't know how anybody can read the scriptures and come to that conclusion, even if you redefine words.

 

[Benoni]

It is going to be almost impossible to communicate with you, because you have a different definition for everything in the scriptures than I do. All I can say is I believe you are in extreme error. Of course, you believe the same of me.

But if you believe all people are saved, you are in tremendous error. I don't know how anybody can read the scriptures and come to that conclusion, even if you redefine words.

I understand why you feal this way but you are wrong. The tremendous error in those who dare believe that Jesus came to damn not save. That his precious blood he shed on Calvary did not totally reverse the sin of Adam. I pointed out the priesthood of God earlier in this thread and no one dare address it.

Why?

Are not these verses not scriptural or are we picking and choosing parts of God's Word to promote what we believe and not what God's Word says/

I believe there are two points of view in the Bible. There is the letter that killeth. Then there is the logos, the spiritual hidden Word that is divine.

 

[psalms109:31]

Salvation of the soul

Proverbs 23:14
Punish him with the rod and save his soul from death.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Peter 1:9
8Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

God doesn't need to save the life and spirit, but save our soul through Jesus Christ. The goal of our faith is not the salvation of the spirit.

I wouldn't spread a false hope then they end up where you don't believe in.

Do you only believe they would only be saved for only an age?