Fruits of Calvanism

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
So why does people perish when God said it wasn't his "WILL"??

I've already answered this one. The context of the verse is that God is not willing that any of His elect perish. And none of them will perish.

Please don't try to mangle the issue by substituting election in 2 Peter with God's election for other purposes. God elects different people for different purposes, and not all who are elected to a purpose are elected for the purpose of being saved. But in 2 Peter, the elect are those who have been chosen for salvation.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
So why does people perish when God said it wasn't his "WILL"??

I've already answered this one. The context of the verse is that God is not willing that any of His elect perish. And none of them will perish.

Please don't try to mangle the issue by substituting election in 2 Peter with God's election for other purposes. God elects different people for different purposes, and not all who are elected to a purpose are elected for the purpose of being saved. But in 2 Peter, the elect are those who have been chosen for salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]If Israel was "Elected" to reject Jesus, then his offer was a "LIE".

Israel rejected Jesus because his words didn't match the doctrine/words they wanted to hear/believe, the "TRUTH",

Do you think that the Jews didn't use the scriptures to prove Jesus wrong, they certainly tried, and susceeded according to their "BELIEF".

And like Israel, you don't want to agree with his doctrine/words either, and for the same reason, they don't match the words you want to hear/believe, and using scripture, you too think you have susceeded.

You don't lose a reward for disagreeing with me, but you do with Jesus, so be sure, your sin will find you out.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
If Israel was "Elected" to reject Jesus, then his offer was a "LIE".

The Bible says it was all in accordance with God's plan, which makes it yet another example of God's sovereign will being done.

You say it's a lie. Well, you can say anything you want.

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
In your response to my previous post a great many of your statements were similar to the one above. You question why God would do "X" if "Y" was predestined. I think those are excellent questions that are answered in the text.

The "REGIDITY" (Unyielding) of Predestination/Sovereign will doesn't provide explanations for alternative outcome of events that occur in the world against the "Will of God".

Predestination/Sovereign will can't explain why Jesus was send/offered to take a people under his wings whom were "predestined" by the "Sovereign will" of God to reject Jesus.

God is sovereign and His will cannot be thwarted by angels or men. So why does God make statements that seem to contradict His predetermined plan(s)?

So why does people perish when God said it wasn't his "WILL"??

The regidity of sovereign will doesn't/can't explain that.

Nineveh's repentance was predetermined by God. I know, I know...you and I will disagree on that.

Nineveh (Gentiles) repented at the preaching of a "prophet" from "Galilee", Jonah, a "Foreshadow" of Jesus which the Jews deny.

Mt 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mt 16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas.

Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

As far as Jesus's statement regarding Jerusalem...even though Jesus is God and knew that Israel would reject Him, He never ceased being a man. He had human emotions. Israel's rejection of their Messiah must have hurt Him deeply. The passage is dripping with the sorrow of Christ over disobedient Israel. They would/could not accept Him as Messiah since prophesy said they would not. But that did not stop Jesus from grieving in His humanity.

NO, it was not "predestined" for them to reject him, that "CHOICE" was one they made, not God.

Jesus not only "COULD" but "WOULD" have taken them under his wings, his offer was just as real to them as it is to the whole world, however their "UNBELIEF" prevented it, not God's will/predestination.

Calvin doctrine explains the outcome of events as being the "Will of God" according to "predestination", rather than the "Personal belief" of individuals.

This in turn would deny that Jesus's offer to Israel, the whole world, is a "GENUINE", "CERTIFIED" offer of salvation, with the outcome based on their "Belief/Unbelief", instead than "GOD'S WILL".

This is the "CHOICE" God sets before man.

De 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;

27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:

28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God,


If God's "sovereign will" was "supreme" over our "CHOICE", then all would either be saved or God would be a lair.

2Pe 3:9 not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Quite obvioulsy, God's will isn't being carried out, so evidently that "choice" set before man in the garden is still functioning today.

Calvin's doctrine has no explanation for the outcome of events which are clearly "against the will of God". </font>[/QUOTE]Me4Him, I have a hunch that I will proven right with this question. My hunch is that you will not be able to answer this question with a "yes" or a "no" and just leave it at that. I promise that if you do answer with a simple "yes" or "no" I will provide my reply and give you all the space in the world to respond.

Here is my question: could Judas Iscariot have chosen not to betray the Lord? Yes or no. I am not seeking an explanation or a polemic...just a yes or no. Can/will you do that?

Thanks.

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
If Israel was "Elected" to reject Jesus, then his offer was a "LIE".

The Bible says it was all in accordance with God's plan, which makes it yet another example of God's sovereign will being done.

You say it's a lie. Well, you can say anything you want. </font>[/QUOTE]I must admitt....I do feel like hitting my head against the wall at times...don't you?

 

[Timtoolman]

Me4Him, it seems like you get more questions then answers here. You have made your case well. It is a tough issue. I would have liked someone to challenge you on question whether Jesus was sincre or not. But it looks like it ain't going to happen.
Not just cheerleading here. I really have gained incite from both sides. Just Me4Him seems to be taking on the whole crowd.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
j
Here is my question: could Judas Iscariot have chosen not to betray the Lord? Yes or no. I am not seeking an explanation or a polemic...just a yes or no. Can/will you do that?

Thanks. [/QB]

YES, he could have chose "NOT TO" betray Jesus.

But I think without an explanation, you'll be more "Cornfused" than ever.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Timtoolman:
Me4Him, it seems like you get more questions then answers here. You have made your case well. It is a tough issue. I would have liked someone to challenge you on question whether Jesus was sincre or not. But it looks like it ain't going to happen.
Not just cheerleading here. I really have gained incite from both sides. Just Me4Him seems to be taking on the whole crowd.

Scripture tell us that Israel rejected Jesus because of their "Unbelief", not predestination, Jesus's offer was "genuine" and he would have, but they would not.

Just as this choice was left up to the individuals to make, so is it with all men.

Actually, God doesn't condemn any to hell, he made provisions to save all and warned all of the consequences of sin, so really, man must "prevent" God from saving him by his "Unbelief", just as Israel did.

 

[Bill Brown]

[ April 15, 2006, 12:39 AM: Message edited by: Bill Brown ]

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
j
Here is my question: could Judas Iscariot have chosen not to betray the Lord? Yes or no. I am not seeking an explanation or a polemic...just a yes or no. Can/will you do that?

Thanks.

YES, he could have chose "NOT TO" betray Jesus.

But I think without an explanation, you'll be more "Cornfused" than ever.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]The scriptures are replete with characters who faced crisis decisions. What if Rahab had not hidden the spies? What if Moses refused to leave Midian for Egypt? What if Ruth stayed in Moab? What if Jesus decided He didn't want to die? What if Judas decided not to betray the Lord? What if any of dozens of other characters chose differently? According to the laws of probablity the odds of all of these decisions going the right way is staggering. And remember, God could have nothing to do with any of these decisions. They all had to be made by the free will of the choosers. It is statisically impossible for all the correct choices to be made given the number of choices there are in the bible. Free will would would eventually cause at least one prophecy to fail. The resulting failure would cast doubt into all of scripture. Since each part of the bible is intricately woven with all the other parts, one failure would cause the whole bible to be suspect and untrustworthy.

Now...if you are going to say that God would not allow that to happen, that somehow He would/did intervne, then free will is not really free will.

Just something to munch on.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
The scriptures are replete with characters who faced crisis decisions. What if Rahab had not hidden the spies? What if Moses refused to leave Midian for Egypt? What if Ruth stayed in Moab? What if Jesus decided He didn't want to die? What if Judas decided not to betray the Lord? What if any of dozens of other characters chose differently? According to the laws of probablity the odds of all of these decisions going the right way is staggering. And remember, God could have nothing to do with any of these decisions. They all had to be made by the free will of the choosers. It is statisically impossible for all the correct choices to be made given the number of choices there are in the bible. Free will would would eventually cause at least one prophecy to fail. The resulting failure would cast doubt into all of scripture. Since each part of the bible is intricately woven with all the other parts, one failure would cause the whole bible to be suspect and untrustworthy.

Now...if you are going to say that God would not allow that to happen, that somehow He would/did intervne, then free will is not really free will.

Just something to munch on.

God does have Predestinated plans, six days of work, another day of rest, but no soul was ever predestined to hell, I think God's statement, Jesus mission proves that beyond a reasonable doubt, unless of course all doesn't mean all.

When Israel rejected Jesus, God said to invite as many as you find.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The invitation is open to the whole world, and God certainly wouldn't tell me to invite as many as I can find unless he also would welcome them.

Calvin's doctrine is "Backwards" to the scripture,
1. saved before faith,
2. limited atonement when Jesus die for the sins of the whole world,
3. God predestine people to hell when God said it wasn't his will for any to perish,
4. God showing respect of persons, when respect is a sin in judgment.
5. predestination condemns, not "unbelief"

and to make it "ALL" fit, ALL doesn't mean All.

There's more contradiction in calvins doctrine than lies in a politicians campaign promises.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
j
Here is my question: could Judas Iscariot have chosen not to betray the Lord? Yes or no. I am not seeking an explanation or a polemic...just a yes or no. Can/will you do that?

Thanks.

YES, he could have chose "NOT TO" betray Jesus.

But I think without an explanation, you'll be more "Cornfused" than ever.

</font>[/QUOTE]The scriptures are replete with characters who faced crisis decisions. What if Rahab had not hidden the spies? What if Moses refused to leave Midian for Egypt? What if Ruth stayed in Moab? What if Jesus decided He didn't want to die? What if Judas decided not to betray the Lord? What if any of dozens of other characters chose differently? According to the laws of probablity the odds of all of these decisions going the right way is staggering. And remember, God could have nothing to do with any of these decisions. They all had to be made by the free will of the choosers. It is statisically impossible for all the correct choices to be made given the number of choices there are in the bible. Free will would would eventually cause at least one prophecy to fail. The resulting failure would cast doubt into all of scripture. Since each part of the bible is intricately woven with all the other parts, one failure would cause the whole bible to be suspect and untrustworthy.

Now...if you are going to say that God would not allow that to happen, that somehow He would/did intervne, then free will is not really free will.

Just something to munch on. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]What if Adam/eve had never sinned, would God have forced them to sin since Jesus was "foreordained" before the foundation of the world,

Would the world be much different..."IF"..

When Adam sinned, he ended the seventh day of rest, creating an 8th day in which God spirit would not rest but strive with man,

Do you know Jesus was also resurrected on the 8th day, first day of the week.

and that the GWT is after the 7th day and in the 8th day.

in the eighth day

1. sin/death enter
2. Jesus removed it for believers
3. God will judge the unbelievers

But ya know what, you can't find an 8th day in the original creations day, ya know why,

God didn't predestine (plan) it.

God was finished on the 7th day, the 8th day came about as the results of "Adam's WILL" not God's, no sin, no 8th day.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
If Israel was "Elected" to reject Jesus, then his offer was a "LIE".

The Bible says it was all in accordance with God's plan, which makes it yet another example of God's sovereign will being done.

You say it's a lie. Well, you can say anything you want. </font>[/QUOTE]I must admitt....I do feel like hitting my head against the wall at times...don't you? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, sometimes discussing things on this board feels just like hitting my head against the wall. Oh, maybe that's what you meant.

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
The scriptures are replete with characters who faced crisis decisions. What if Rahab had not hidden the spies? What if Moses refused to leave Midian for Egypt? What if Ruth stayed in Moab? What if Jesus decided He didn't want to die? What if Judas decided not to betray the Lord? What if any of dozens of other characters chose differently? According to the laws of probablity the odds of all of these decisions going the right way is staggering. And remember, God could have nothing to do with any of these decisions. They all had to be made by the free will of the choosers. It is statisically impossible for all the correct choices to be made given the number of choices there are in the bible. Free will would would eventually cause at least one prophecy to fail. The resulting failure would cast doubt into all of scripture. Since each part of the bible is intricately woven with all the other parts, one failure would cause the whole bible to be suspect and untrustworthy.

Now...if you are going to say that God would not allow that to happen, that somehow He would/did intervne, then free will is not really free will.

Just something to munch on.

God does have Predestinated plans, six days of work, another day of rest, but no soul was ever predestined to hell, I think God's statement, Jesus mission proves that beyond a reasonable doubt, unless of course all doesn't mean all.

When Israel rejected Jesus, God said to invite as many as you find.

Mt 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

Re 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The invitation is open to the whole world, and God certainly wouldn't tell me to invite as many as I can find unless he also would welcome them.

Calvin's doctrine is "Backwards" to the scripture,
1. saved before faith,
2. limited atonement when Jesus die for the sins of the whole world,
3. God predestine people to hell when God said it wasn't his will for any to perish,
4. God showing respect of persons, when respect is a sin in judgment.
5. predestination condemns, not "unbelief"

and to make it "ALL" fit, ALL doesn't mean All.

There's more contradiction in calvins doctrine than lies in a politicians campaign promises.

</font>[/QUOTE]You never really dealt with what I said. Do honestly believe that every character in the bible decided every action based on free will and that ever action just happene to work in sync in order for God's plan of redemption to occur?

 

[Bill Brown]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
If Israel was "Elected" to reject Jesus, then his offer was a "LIE".

The Bible says it was all in accordance with God's plan, which makes it yet another example of God's sovereign will being done.

You say it's a lie. Well, you can say anything you want. </font>[/QUOTE]I must admitt....I do feel like hitting my head against the wall at times...don't you? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, sometimes discussing things on this board feels just like hitting my head against the wall. Oh, maybe that's what you meant. </font>[/QUOTE]I think it is both!

Now I haven't been on this board for that long. Just a few months. But in that time what I have noticed that those who debate on the side of free will seem to be the one's who get out of control. This is a general statement because I am sure some of my Reformed brethren have posted a few of those "zingers." But bye and large it seems like those on the free will side lose it...often. I see more insults and bold text (shouting). To be fair I found myself learning towards those tactics and had to nip it in the bud before it went to far. This certainly is a interesting place.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bill Brown:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
If Israel was "Elected" to reject Jesus, then his offer was a "LIE".

The Bible says it was all in accordance with God's plan, which makes it yet another example of God's sovereign will being done.

You say it's a lie. Well, you can say anything you want. </font>[/QUOTE]I must admitt....I do feel like hitting my head against the wall at times...don't you? </font>[/QUOTE]Actually, sometimes discussing things on this board feels just like hitting my head against the wall. Oh, maybe that's what you meant. </font>[/QUOTE]I suppose that's what Jesus felt like trying to convince Israel to believe him, and he is having as much trouble today getting people to listen to him as he had with Israel,

Convincing the "flesh" it's wrong, in either sin or doctrine is the root of the problem, PRIDE is a characteristic common to all flesh, and it "quenches the spirit" to some degree, in all flesh.

Dogmatic is a function of pride, and like Israel, it can/will blind you to the truth, even with the scripture.

Of all the sins man posessess, his "PRIDE" is the least recognized/confessed.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Bill Brown:

You never really dealt with what I said. Do honestly believe that every character in the bible decided every action based on free will and that ever action just happene to work in sync in order for God's plan of redemption to occur?

I believe God knew every action ever individual would take by their "Free will" and incorperated that action into his plan.

God doesn't tempt man with sin, Predestination has God destroying Pharaoh for a predestinated sin rather than incorperating Pharaoh's "FREE WILL" sin into the deliverence of Israel.

Predestination denies that God would have preferred to "LOVE" Pharaoh/Egyptian people, dispence with all the "signs/wonders/destruction"...IF...they had obeyed God.


Scripture says "GOD IS LOVE", but calvin "DENIES" God is love to "ALL PEOPLE".

You have to have a very limited view to God to think he can't function within the framework of "Free will".

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I believe God knew every action ever individual would take by their "Free will" and incorperated that action into his plan.

So, you admit that you think God is reactionary and subservient to man's sovereign free-will. Interesting.

 

[Timtoolman]

Hmmmm....I think that is the tough question. ONe answer does indeed make God sin. On the other side, the one calvinist claim denies God's sovereign does indeed seem to have a greater God. His will being done while man has free will.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
God doesn't tempt man with sin, Predestination has God destroying Pharaoh for a predestinated sin rather than incorperating Pharaoh's "FREE WILL" sin into the deliverence of Israel.

The Bible begs to differ...

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth. 18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

Your translation would read, "For this purpose I allowed you to exercise your free will and sin only because you wanted to...So then he hath mercy on whoever wants mercy and he whoever doesn't want it he allows them to harden themselves."

Exodus 4:21 And Jehovah said unto Moses, When thou goest back into Egypt, see that thou do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in thy hand: but I will harden his heart and he will not let the people go.

Your translation would read, "When you go back into Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your hand: but of his own free will he will choose whether or not to let the people go, and I will wait to see what he does, so don't get your hopes up of actually bringing the people out just yet, because he might listen and everything will be alright there in Egypt."