frustrated with arminianism

So James, God cannot effect His will without a preacher, a tract, or a gospel song?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
[QB]Paul:

You are comparing apples and oranges. Calvinists believe man "works"; but the very work of faith is God's, not man's.

Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris,

This is a scipture I hear far to often twisted to suit Calvinist doctrine. This scripture DOES NOT support the idea of saving faith as God-given. The "gift" in this verse is salvation, not faith. A careful word study will show you that "it" is neuter in form, "faith" is feminine, "it" refers solely to salvation.

 

Dr. Bob:

Do you imply that Chris's usage of this scipture is correct?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EPH 1:4:
So James, God cannot effect His will without a preacher, a tract, or a gospel song?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course He can..He can raise children of Abraham from the stones. He has ordained preaching as the instrument of regeneration...."faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God"

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free_wheeler:


Chris,

This is a scipture I hear far to often twisted to suit Calvinist doctrine. This scripture DOES NOT support the idea of saving faith as God-given. The "gift" in this verse is salvation, not faith. A careful word study will show you that "it" is neuter in form, "faith" is feminine, "it" refers solely to salvation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That changes nothing....if it is a gift (and it is) it is all of God.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EPH 1:4:
So James, God cannot effect His will without a preacher, a tract, or a gospel song?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me add that it is not whether He CAN effect His will but HOW He has chosen to effect His Will.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:
Paul of Eugene,

This is not what I hear from Calvinists. Everyone still does 'good works'. The question is not about 'good works'. The question is who decides that you will do the 'good works'. Do you make the decision to do 'good works'. Did your flesh decide to do 'good works'? Do you get to decide if you are apart of the elect? The question is not whether or not it happens, the question is who makes the original decision?

If a robot does what it is programmed to do, did the robot make the decision to do the work or is it merely carrying out the program given to it by the programmer. If you believe the robot did it, then you would be an Arminian. If you believe the programmer did it, then you are a Calvinist.

It is not the actual works at issue here, the issue is where did the desire to do the work originate?

It is a fun question to think about. But I think how it all works is beyond our limited comprehension. According to the Bible somehow there is a little of both.

Of course this is foolishness to man, but the Bible does say that God's wisdom appears foolish to men.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's ALL of God...."For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Eph 2:10

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by free_wheeler:


Chris,

This is a scipture I hear far to often twisted to suit Calvinist doctrine. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, no scripture twisting here.

Ephes. 2:8-9 (ESV)
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

What is the gift? What is the one thing man can take credit for? Is it salvation? No, salvation is of the Lord. Is it grace? No, that too is of the Lord. The only thing that man could claim credit for as work isfaith. Clearly, the apostle is stating that the very faith of the believer is a gift.

Romans 12:3 (ESV)
For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Luke 17:5 (ESV)
The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What is the gift? What is the one thing man can take credit for? Is it salvation? No, salvation is of the Lord. Is it grace? No, that too is of the Lord. The only thing that man could claim credit for as work is faith. Clearly, the apostle is stating that the very faith of the believer is a gift. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Youre saying "faith" is "of the Lord" as well, and man does think he earns salvation, and that he somehow earns or generates "grace", so that does not prove that "faith" is the subject of the sentence.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eric B:


Youre saying "faith" is "of the Lord" as well, and man does think he earns salvation, and that he somehow earns or generates "grace", so that does not prove that "faith" is the subject of the sentence.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? Can you give that to me in English

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Huh? Can you give that to me in English <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Referring to this:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Is it salvation? No, salvation is of the Lord. Is it grace? No, that too is of the Lord. The only thing that man could claim credit for as work is faith. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Faith is supposedly of the Lord, and man does try to take credit for salvation and grace, so this distinction of "faith" (supposedly making it the subject) does not exist.