Frustration over debate about Calvinism

[BaptistBob]

What do you mean by Christocentric, corporate election, please ?

In simple terms, Christocentric election means that Christ is the foundation and focus of election, including Christianity itself. It contrasts with other types of election in that Christ's election is not merely the means ("mediate cause" according to Berkhof) of election by which others are saved. It was not simply/only a means to an end. Christ is the foundation of the decree, not the person who received the status as the means of fulfilling it.

Corporate election is related, in that believers partake of Christ's election by faith. They are included "in him," and all election relationships reflect that "in him" status, either anticipated or actualized.

Corporate election does not preclude one theology or another. For example, there are a number of commentaries on Ephesians that adopt the perspective. Ernest Best (Calvinist), Carl Barth (neo-Reformed), William Klein (non-C), Klein Snodgrass (non-C), and A. T. Robertson (non-C) are examples of theologians who have written on the book of Ephesians from a corporate election perspective.

Is. 42:1; Matt 12:18; Luke 9:35; 1 Peter 2:4,6 are worth considering in this regard.

 

[annsni]

For whatever reason, Calvinist can't believe God can "foreknow" who will, of their own volition, chose to believe and who will not.

Oh? Where does a Calvinist say that God doesn't foreknow something?

However, there is no Scriptural support to the idea that God sees into the future who will believe in Him and then He chooses them to salvation. That's not predestination but just foreknowledge. However Scripture clearly supports predestination.

 

[OldRegular]

Oh? Where does a Calvinist say that God doesn't foreknow something?

However, there is no Scriptural support to the idea that God sees into the future who will believe in Him and then He chooses them to salvation. That's not predestination but just foreknowledge. However Scripture clearly supports predestination.

Why do people want to ignore Ephesians 1:3-6 and passages in the Gospel of John too numerous to mention? Is it because they believe that God is not able to accomplish that which He chooses.

 

[webdog]

Oh? Where does a Calvinist say that God doesn't foreknow something?

However, there is no Scriptural support to the idea that God sees into the future who will believe in Him and then He chooses them to salvation. That's not predestination but just foreknowledge. However Scripture clearly supports predestination.

The foreknowledge and predestination go hand in hand, and are not separated as you imply. I also agree with your notion that God "looks down the corridors of time"...that places God within time and confines Him to such. I believe God exists in all corridors of time at the same time.

 

[webdog]

Why do people want to ignore Ephesians 1:3-6 and passages in the Gospel of John too numerous to mention? Is it because they believe that God is not able to accomplish that which He chooses.

Who has ignored them? Just because we differ on the meaning of those passages does not mean we ignore them. I really wish both sides would quit with this kind of veiled ad hominem.

 

[canadyjd]

The differences betwen Cal/non Cal isn't so much when/what God "foreknew", but whether man's "belief" and "unbelief" plays a role in God deciding whom he will/will not save.

Cal say it doesn't, non cal say if does.

That is a pretty good analysis.

For whatever reason, Calvinist can't believe God can "foreknow" who will, of their own volition, chose to believe and who will not.

It isn't that I can't believe it. It is that I can't find scripture, in context, that teaches God looked into the future, saw who would believe, and then "elected" them based on that future act.

That makes God responding to man, instead of man responding to God.

Having Faith will not save a person, people have faith in many different gods, but Cals say having faith is impossible unless God "enables" by first saving...

Almost. Speaking only for myself, I would say God "enables" by Holy Spirit regeneration, which always leads to repentance, faith, and salvation.

"OUR Faith" is the only tunnel "THROUGH" this "mountain of sin" in which Grace can reach us. (By Grace "Through" Faith)

God's grace is the only tunnel through which Holy Spirit regenerates, bringing us to repentance, faith, and salvation.

Your belief focuses on man. Mine focuses on God.

Abraham "believed God" and "IT" (his faith) was counted to him as "Righteousness". (grace)

Grace and rightesousness are two different things.

peace to youraying:

 

[annsni]

Why do people want to ignore Ephesians 1:3-6 and passages in the Gospel of John too numerous to mention? Is it because they believe that God is not able to accomplish that which He chooses.

Actually, that entire passage is so amazing and speaks so clearly:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

 

[webdog]

Actually, that entire passage is so amazing and speaks so clearly:

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Notice "in Christ" is used a dozen or so times throughout. Coincidence?

 

[BaptistBob]

Notice "in Christ" is used a dozen or so times throughout. Coincidence?

...........:thumbs:

 

[Winman]

It isn't that I can't believe it. It is that I can't find scripture, in context, that teaches God looked into the future, saw who would believe, and then "elected" them based on that future act.

Well, it's there. Here is one example.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Before Esau and Jacob were born, God told Rebecca their mother that the elder would serve the younger. Esau was born first, and if you remember, Jacob was born holding on to his heel (twins).

Esau, sold his birthright to Jacob because he had no regard for it. But Jacob believed the promises of God and coveted it.

Gen 25:29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:
30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.
31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.
32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?
33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

God knew before they were born that Esau would despise his birthright, but Jacob would believe the promises made to their father Isaac.

And if you go back to Romans 9:11, it shows who God elected, those who come by faith (but of him that calleth), and not by works.

Look, we just had an election, and we knew who would win. No, we did not know if Obama or McCain would win, but we knew whoever won the electoral college (notice it is called electoral) would win. Why? Because by our law, it has already been predetermined (predestined) that whoever wins the electoral college is elected President.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

 

[OldRegular]

Notice "in Christ" is used a dozen or so times throughout. Coincidence?

That is correct webdog. Verse 4 tells us that God CHOSE us in Christ before the foundation of the world. That term "in Christ" simply means that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for the sins of those whom God elected to salvation.

Note also that verse 5 states he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. We are adopted as sons according to God's will, not according to my will or to your will.

 

[Winman]

Maybe getting off track here, but Paul was not the only person to whom the mystery that the Gentiles would be saved was revealed.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This mystery was revealed to all the apostles.

In fact, Peter was the first to lead a Gentile to Christ (Cornelius), not Paul.

Before Peter ever met Paul he said this to Cornelius

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Me4Him]

That is a pretty good analysis. It isn't that I can't believe it. It is that I can't find scripture, in context, that teaches God looked into the future, saw who would believe, and then "elected" them based on that future act.

Let's turn the question around,

Why would God say he didn't come to condemn the world, died for the sins of the whole world that it "Might be" saved, not willing any perish,

"IF" he "foreknew", or "predestine", many to perish and only a "Few" to be saved???

If predestination is the truth, God actually lied by making that statement.

If "foreknowledge", why die for the sins of the whole world that the whole world "might be" saved foreknowing the whole world isn't going to be saved??

God is going to "judge" and "justify/condemn" based on a person's belief/unbelief,

but a "Righteous" Judgement/condemnation requires the person to have had an "Equal opportunity" to be saved, this is why Jesus took away the law for all sin, so the whole world "might be" saved, and the condemned have "No excuse".

That makes God responding to man, instead of man responding to God.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him,

Yes, God does respond to man.

Almost. Speaking only for myself, I would say God "enables" by Holy Spirit regeneration, which always leads to repentance, faith, and salvation.

God's grace is the only tunnel through which Holy Spirit regenerates, bringing us to repentance, faith, and salvation.

God calls, but we can accept or reject that calling.

Abraham had to "BELIEVE" God "BEFORE" his "FAITH" was counted as "Righteousness". (Grace)

Faith don't come "THROUGH" Grace,

Grace comes "THROUGH" faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Grace and rightesousness are two different things.

peace to youraying:

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned,

Ro 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[Winman]

Note also that verse 5 states he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. We are adopted as sons according to God's will, not according to my will or to your will.

When the Bible says that he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, that does not mean that a man's will does not enter into salvation.

It is saying that the method of salvation was completely God's idea, man had no input in that.

Look, there are many verses that clearly show a man has a choice in choosing Jesus or not.

Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Why would Jesus condemn someone for not coming to him, if by God's own will that person cannot possibly come to him? That makes no sense whatsoever.

And the Bible makes it clear that salvation is a choice of the will.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Whosoever will! That means anyone who chooses can be saved. This does not rob God, it glorifies him. God sent his Son Jesus to die for our sins in our place. But God is loving and does not force this upon us. He wants us to accept his Son Jesus because we want to.

You cannot have love without choice. If you stick a gun in a girl's face and force her to marry you, is that love? Of course not. But if the girl willingly chooses to marry you, that is love.

And the Bible even speaks of salvation as a marriage.

Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Is a man dishonored when a woman says she will marry him? NO. This is the greatest honor and compliment there is known to man.

God did not make us robots who must believe or not believe. Then there would be no love. God wants you to come to him because you willingly choose to and love him.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[OldRegular]

When the Bible says that he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, that does not mean that a man's will does not enter into salvation.

It really does. The will of unregenerate is in bondage to sin.

 

[OldRegular]

Maybe getting off track here, but Paul was not the only person to whom the mystery that the Gentiles would be saved was revealed.

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to youward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

This mystery was revealed to all the apostles.

In fact, Peter was the first to lead a Gentile to Christ (Cornelius), not Paul.

Before Peter ever met Paul he said this to Cornelius

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

You make a great point here. I have used the passage of the conversion of Cornelius in response to Ituttut but to no avail.

 

[canadyjd]

Well, it's there. Here is one example.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

There is absolutely no evidence in that passage that God looked into the future, saw that Esau would forsake his birthright and Jacob would believe, and make an election based on that knowledge. It just isn't there.

In fact, the point of the passage is exactly the opposite of what you are attempting to make it say. God chose according to His purpose, not according to anything Jacob or Esau did or would do. It was His purpose alone that governed His choice.

Can't you see that you are attempting to make the passage say the exact opposite of Paul's point? You are saying that Jacob warranted being chosen (elected) by God, because saw that He would believe.

Again, that is the opposite of what Paul is teaching in the passage.

And if you go back to Romans 9:11, it shows who God elected, those who come by faith (but of him that calleth), and not by works.

"him that calleth" is referring to God calling to His people, not people calling out to God.

Read a few verses further and you'll find, in v. 16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

Clearly, the will of man is not the deciding factor in salvation. The will of God in electing some by showing mercy (v.15 "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." is the thing that determines salvation.

It's really not that difficult to understand.

My sentiments exactly. It's really not that difficult to understand if you will just believe what scripture says about election and salvation.

v. 16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

.......but a "Righteous" Judgement/condemnation requires the person to have had an "Equal opportunity" to be saved, this is why Jesus took away the law for all sin, so the whole world "might be" saved, and the condemned have "No excuse".

How can people who have never heard of Christ (and we know from history that billions lived and died without ever hearing the Gospel) have an "equal opportunity" to be saved? God doesn't have to answer to your idea of fairness. That is one of the points of Romans 9.

The "no excuse" for mankind comes from general revelation found in creation (Rom. 1:18+). The fact that every single person rejected general revelation leaves the entire world "without excuse" and makes God's judgment/condemnation upon them righteous.

That God sent Jesus Christ as a "special revelation" that brings salvation to those He has chosen, calling them by the power of Holy Spirit, regenerating them so that are able to repent and believe, speaks of God's mercy and love.

Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him,

Yes, God does respond to man.

Really, looks to me like Jesus sought the woman out and she responded to His revelation of Himself to her.

peace to youraying:

 

[OldRegular]

It's really not that difficult to understand if you will just believe what scripture says about election and salvation.

v. 16 "So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

peace to youraying:

Good post canadyjd. Sadly people will not believe what Scripture teaches about election and salvation. It is my belief that election magnifies the Grace of God. If it were not for election no one would be saved.

I am also of the opinion that there are some who simply are not content to let God be God but believe that He really needs a little help in their salvation.

 

[OldRegular]

Really, looks to me like Jesus sought the woman out and she responded to His revelation of Himself to her.

peace to youraying:

So true. Scripture states that:

John 4::3, 4
3. He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
4. And he must needs go through Samaria.

Why did Jesus Christ need to go to Samaria when Jews avoided it like the plague. He needed to see the woman. Just as God sought out Adam and Eve He always takes the initiative in Salvation.

All Praise to Him for it is certain that unregenerate man will not seek Him.