Frustration over debate about Calvinism

[canadyjd]

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Only those who doeth the will of the Father shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, by pure logic and the process of elimination, those who do not do the will of the Father will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

I certainly agree with you.

What you have, however, is a works based system of salvation unless the very works that those who are saved do, they can only do if enabled by Almighty God, by His Spirit.

John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

Scripture supports that interpretation.

peace to youraying:

 

[psalms109:31]

Hides the truth

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

2 Corinthians 3:
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

 

[canadyjd]

canadyjd

You can't pick and choose scripture to fit a pre-conceived idea. Yes, the scriptures talk several times of Jesus hiding things from men, and blinding them.

But if you study it out, you will see the reason God blinded them is because they loved evil and hated God.

Brother, you chose the scripture that I am talking about. You are not engaging the text. You are not answering the questions.

If God wants all men to be saved, why did He hide things from some and blind others?

You seem to be saying that God made such decisions based on how evil people were. What you have, therefore, is a works-based system.

"God wanted to save everybody, but some were just too evil to save". Therefore, you earned your salvation by not being quite as evil as the next guy whom God hid things from and "blinded".

And even with that, your interpretation doesn't answer the question of how can God desire all men to be saved when He is hiding things concerning salvation from them? Or blinding them to the truth? Regardless of His reasons for doing so.

peace to youraying:

 

[psalms109:31]

Justified by faith is not work

Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, faith is not a supernatural gift from God like the speaking of tongues, faith is a normal ability that all men have.

I Cor. 12:7-9 "But to each one is given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good, (8) For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, ...." (emphasis mine)

Faith is mentioned as a supernatural gift of God, Holy Spirit. There are other passages. I hope you will believe scripture and changed you view.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

May I repeat that question, please ?

What do you mean by Christocentric, corporate election, please ?

not yelling. just trying to be heard over the cacophony and noise, thank you.

BaptistBob answered you on page 19.

He is what he posted:

BaptistBob said: In simple terms, Christocentric election means that Christ is the foundation and focus of election, including Christianity itself. It contrasts with other types of election in that Christ's election is not merely the means ("mediate cause" according to Berkhof) of election by which others are saved. It was not simply/only a means to an end. Christ is the foundation of the decree, not the person who received the status as the means of fulfilling it.

Corporate election is related, in that believers partake of Christ's election by faith. They are included "in him," and all election relationships reflect that "in him" status, either anticipated or actualized.

Corporate election does not preclude one theology or another. For example, there are a number of commentaries on Ephesians that adopt the perspective. Ernest Best (Calvinist), Carl Barth (neo-Reformed), William Klein (non-C), Klein Snodgrass (non-C), and A. T. Robertson (non-C) are examples of theologians who have written on the book of Ephesians from a corporate election perspective.

Is. 42:1; Matt 12:18; Luke 9:35; 1 Peter 2:4,6 are worth considering in this regard.

peace to youraying:

 

[psalms109:31]

Without His words

Without His words through Jesus none of these gifts would or could be granted to us by this same Spirit, praise be to Jesus.

 

[Winman]

This passage is simple. Peter is saying that God is not willing that any of the elect should perish, and that they should all come to repentance.

It might be simple, but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why should God want the elect to come to repentance? They are already elect according to you and cannot perish. And this verse is about salvation (not willing that any should perish).

The whole idea that God chooses some to be saved and chooses others to be lost makes no sense. Why would God command Christians to teach the Gospel? It makes no sense. If they are going to believe, then they will believe no matter what you or anybody else does. And if they are not going to believe, preaching the Gospel to them is a complete waste of time. This makes no rational sense whatsoever.

You cannot interpret scripture privately. The Bible says God is not willing any should perish. This is why God commands Christians to preach to every creature. Some will listen, some will not, but everyone is given the chance to hear and believe.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture

I like this scripture on that line to

1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

It is a call to reach the world

2 Corinthians 5
16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.

 

[canadyjd]

It might be simple, but that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why should God want the elect to come to repentance? They are already elect according to you and cannot perish. And this verse is about salvation (not willing that any should perish).

That they are already elect doesn't mean they are already saved. They still must respond to the convicting power of Holy Spirit, repent, believe the truth of the gospel and come to Jesus Christ by faith.

That makes perfect sense in the context of the passage.

The whole idea that God chooses some to be saved and chooses others to be lost makes no sense. Why would God command Christians to teach the Gospel? It makes no sense. If they are going to believe, then they will believe no matter what you or anybody else does. And if they are not going to believe, preaching the Gospel to them is a complete waste of time. This makes no rational sense whatsoever.

Scripture tells us that God was well-pleased to save those who believe through the foolishness of the message preached (Christ and Him crucified). I Cor. 1:21

We are, therefore, commanded to preach the gospel to every person. The gospel serves a two-fold purpose. It brings salvation to some, and it condemns others.

The Bible says God is not willing any should perish. This is why God commands Christians to preach to every creature.

You continue to avoid answering the question. If God desires every person on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things concerning salvation to some, blind others, and reveal the things of salvation to others?

Some will listen, some will not, but everyone is given the chance to hear and believe.

Now, that doesn't make any sense.

Brother, how is it possible for everyone to get a chance to hear and believe when we know billions have lived their entire lives without any evidence they ever had a chance to hear the gospel?

It defies logic and history.

BTW, you didn't answer my question. How is it that 2 Pet 3:9 can mean God wants all men to come to repentance, when 2 Pet 2:9 tells us that God knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment."?

Your interpretation of 3:9 is contradicting 2:9. You have accused me of ignoring scripture. Well, brother, here is your chance. How can God want all men to be saved if He is keeping some under punishment for the day of judgment?

peace to youraying:

 

[psalms109:31]

If God desires every person on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things concerning salvation to some, blind others, and reveal the things of salvation to others?Now, that doesn't make any sense.

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your path]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

It all starts with hearing first and then to trust Him over our own understanding

 

[canadyjd]

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [Or will direct your path]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

2 Corinthians 3:16
But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Beautiful scripture.

Were you attempting to answer the question?

peace to youraying:

 

[Winman]

I Cor. 12:7-9 "But to each one is given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good, (8) For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, ...."

That is the only thing you said that does make sense, and I will have to consider this. And I myself know of similar verses.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

So, you do have a good argument there. But the scriptures says faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So if faith is supernatural, it is received by hearing and any man can hear.

Matt 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 14:35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So Jesus here is commanding any man who has ears to listen to him.

And the Bible is clear that men do not always listen to God.

Jer 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the LORD, that this house shall become a desolation.

Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.

According to your belief, these men who do not hear the Lord cannot hear the Lord because it is the Lord's will they they cannot hear. So, God will not allow them to hear, and then curses them for not hearing.

And that makes sense to you?

And why would Jesus command all those with ears to hear to hear, if by God's own will they cannot?

So, you believe it is God's will that some men disobey God's will?

That is so absurd as to be absolutely ridiculous.

 

[psalms109:31]

Scripture answers questions

I try my best to answer with scripture not to lean on my own understanding or my feelings. Those scripture pretty much helped me to understand

 

[psalms109:31]

God doesn't ask us to understand

God doesn't ask us to understand, but to trust Him. It is God responsibility for us to believe after we trust over our own understanding and for Jesus to open our eyes, so praise be to Jesus

 

[Winman]

It is God responsibility for us to believe...

Ah, now we get to the heart of the matter. So, it is God's responsibility who believes and who does not believe?

So, if a man is a wicked sinner and will not believe God's word, it is not his fault, it is God's fault by your reasoning?

I mean, how can you get around this? If a man is but a puppet and can only do what God wills him to do, then man has no responsibility, and God has 100% of the responsibility.

So if a man is a unbelieveing sinner, that is God's will. It is God's fault, not the man's.

This violates scripture, because God does not tempt any man to sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

Now this is really bad. God completely controls a man so that he cannot believe, and then blames the man.

Wow.

 

[Amy.G]

I Cor. 12:7-9 "But to each one is given a manifestation of the Spirit for the common good, (8) For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, ...." (emphasis mine)

Faith is mentioned as a supernatural gift of God, Holy Spirit. There are other passages. I hope you will believe scripture and changed you view.

peace to youraying:

I don't really want to get into the Cal/non Cal argument (again ), but this post jumped out at me.

The scripture you posted is regarding spiritual gifts which are given to those who are already saved. It's not talking about faith given in order to "be" saved.

 

[canadyjd]

That is the only thing you said that does make sense, and I will have to consider this. And I myself know of similar verses.

1 Cor 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

So, you do have a good argument there. But the scriptures says faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So if faith is supernatural, it is received by hearing and any man can hear.....
Matt 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 8:8 ... He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Luke 14:35 ...He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

So Jesus here is commanding any man who has ears to listen to him.

Matt.13:10 "And the disciples came and said to Him, 'Why do You speak to them in parables?' (v.11) And He answered and said to them, 'To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them, it has not been granted.'"

So, God is chosing who to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven to, and who to hide that knowledge from.

According to your belief, these men who do not hear the Lord cannot hear the Lord because it is the Lord's will they they cannot hear. So, God will not allow them to hear, and then curses them for not hearing.

They are already condemned for not hearing/responding to general revelation.

There is no doubt that scripture teaches that God hides things concerning salvation from some and reveals it to others.

And that makes sense to you?

I believe what scripture says. I don't ignore it, like you have accused me of doing and which you are doing even now.

If my beliefs are contrary to what scripture says, I change my beliefs to reflect scripture.

So, you believe it is God's will that some men disobey God's will?

That is so absurd as to be absolutely ridiculous.

That, of course, is not what I believe. It is a ridiculous charge on your part, and simply a way to avoid answering the questions I have asked.

If God wants every person on the planet to be saved, why does He hide things from some and reveal them to others?

If 2 Peter 3:9 means God wants all people to come to repentance, why does Peter say in 2:9 that God knows how to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment?

I have no problem reconciling those passages with my beliefs. You, on the other hand, continue to refuse to even attempt to answer the question.

The obvious reason is that you cannot. With your beliefs, the passages are forever conflicting, putting God at odds with Himself.

It is you, brother, not I, that ignore the passages that don't agree with what you want to believe.

peace to youraying:

 

[psalms109:31]

Work of God

It is the work of God that we believe

John 6:

26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

What you believe comes from God and against everything you once believed, you cannot believe Jesus unless you trust Him over your own understand and what you once believed. It is the work of God that you believe and it comes from the words of Jesus and not from yourself.

 

[canadyjd]

I don't really want to get into the Cal/non Cal argument (again ), but this post jumped out at me.

The scripture you posted is regarding spiritual gifts which are given to those who are already saved. It's not talking about faith given in order to "be" saved.

The statement was that faith was not a supernatural gift. The scripture I quoted shows otherwise.

However, thanks for the input and feel free to jump right on in. The water is fine and people are being nice.:1_grouphug:

peace to youraying: