Frustration over debate about Calvinism

[Allan]

Me4Him - as a Non-Cal I must say that you profess closest soterological view to true semi-Pelagainism than I have ever heard, if not somewhat partial toward Pelagianism. That is not a good thing, ever brother.

 

[EdSutton]

I have been a Christian for over 40 years and realize that there is nothing that I did or could have ever done to merit salvation. I know my Savior called me and I give Him the glory and praise. I must admit, however that I am not a well educated on some of the doctrines and other areas Theology such as the Dispensations and in particular what some mean by the "Sovereignty of God". Please understand, I don't presume to suggest that just because I don't understand something, doesn't mean that God is limited by my understanding or my viewpoint. But I very much want to understand the truths about this debate about Calvinism in the Southern Baptist Conference. I do not hold the Conference above my Lord and Savior, yet the concept or reality that God chose specific people for Hell and others for Heaven is a teaching that I have never heard from the pulpit. I have always understood Election to mean God before the beginning of time fore new who would receive Christ’s call and who would reject Him. But to say He simply won’t call some; is difficult for me to reconcile with so many other scriptures. My Bible study group of senior men from our Baptist church has been given a CD by John MacArthur on the Sovereignty of God. As I understood the CD (and I listened to it several times) MacArthur states specifically that God predestined some to Hell. Of course since Hell exist, some will occupy it, but I have always been taught that it was the ones who refused the call of Christ to Salvation. We had so many of the men in the study that were floored at this interpretation that the Pastor came to explain and clarify (Apparently he is a Calvinist) He says the Bible makes it clear but I am having trouble agreeing it is that clear. I do not hold myself up as someone who is a Biblical academic but if within the SBC only around 10% of the pastors are Calvinist, are the other 90% simply ignorant and we are talking about some who have committed themselves their whole life to the study of God's word. I accept the God is not a respecter of persons but I do need help understanding why I have never heard Election presented from a Calvinist perspective and I have been a member of over 15 SB Churches and AB Churches. Please don't take offense at my questioning but I am really torn up about this. I continue to pray. I just ordered Warren Wiersbe's "Classic Sermons on the Sovereignty of God". Please pray for my understanding and I would appreciate any counsel.

I have absolutely less than zero intention of getting involved in any of the ongoing arguments this thread has generated, so merely let me offer -

A big "Welcome to the Baptist Board!" :wavey:

Ed

 

[Jarthur001]

So you contend that these regenerate people are forced to believe and do not do so (beilieve) willingly? That's new!

As I said...If you want to use the word FORCE...which I feel is bad wording....the force comes in the REGENERATION. Just as we do not choose to be born in a earthly father, so we do not choose to be born of the Father above. It is HIS choice.

There isn't a non-cal alive who would disagree with you on the above. No man can be willing without God moving upon him, and thus it was God who made Paul willing to believe. You sound like a typical non-cal on this point. - your getting closer brother, just a little more and you will be here with the rest of us.

Great...it was not Pauls choice...But Gods choice. You say we all agree.

Good verse.. And it doesn't dispute anything the non-cals hold as truth. Like I said.. you're almost here - keep coming.

Please notice the words...

I have chosen: GOD is the one that chose.
Now why did God chose? Because he knew they believed (Non Calvinist)? No it says he say.... THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE.


that ye may know and believe me,


and what else...

Chosen to UNDERSTAND

and understand that I [am] he:

Dead men do not understand and CAN"T believe

If you believe this....THIS IS CALVINISM 101

 

[Jarthur001]

Me4Him - as a Non-Cal I must say that you profess closest soterological view to true semi-Pelagainism than I have ever heard, if not somewhat partial toward Pelagianism. That is not a good thing, ever brother.

THANKS Allan,

I know that may of use disagree with somethings and that is cool, for this is a debate board. However, I get dismayed when people keep "crossing the line" into error.

Thanks for this post. It shows that both sides can agree on a few things.

ADDED...
I wanted to add so as not to be misunderstood, I feel there are but a small few...(maybe 3) that cross that line into error

 

[Jarthur001]

I have absolutely less than zero intention of getting involved in any of the ongoing arguments this thread has generated, so merely let me offer -

A big "Welcome to the Baptist Board!" :wavey:

Ed

I bet I can say something to pull you in.

 

[OldRegular]

Paul did not believe before God move on him and brought him into the light of the truth. Paul was not WILLING just as all the other Jewish leaders. God made Paul willing to believe.

God made Paul willing to believe after He made a spiritually dead Paul, persecutor of the Church, spiritually alive, what we call regeneration.

 

[Tom Bryant]

God made Paul willing to believe after He made a spiritually dead Paul, persecutor of the Church, spiritually alive, what we call regeneration.

So Paul was now alve and able to choose. What if he chose not to believe? would he be alive forever or would God take the regeneration away?

Or did Paul have to choose salvation once he was made alive?

 

[Allan]

As I said...If you want to use the word FORCE...which I feel is bad wording....the force comes in the REGENERATION. Just as we do not choose to be born in a earthly father, so we do not choose to be born of the Father above. It is HIS choice.

I, like some other Calvinists, do not agree with the 'logical assumption' that regeneration precedes. It is declared by many scholarly Calvinists who hold to this view that this is not something that can be proven 'biblically'.

However the view of faith preceding regeneration can be proven biblically or in the very least illstrated in scripture and order.
No one however is disputing that God is the one who regenerates us and that it is His choice to do so. What we choose, is not be regenerated but to believe what God has revealed via His Spirit. Regeneration is salvation because when one is regenerated (born again) one is justified and sanctified (Titus 3:5). Therefore one can not be justified and sanctified and not be born-again, thusly one can not (according to scripture) be justified nor sanctified prior to faith since it is by faith we are justified (Rom 3:28) and sanctified (Acts 26:18) .

Due to being justified and sanctified we are, according to scripture, declared righteous and this is due to the fact of that which brought forth justification and sanctification unto us, which was 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)

Great...it was not Pauls choice...But Gods choice. You say we all agree.

You bet. God regenerating Paul was His choice, to believe was Pauls :thumbs:

Please notice the words...

I have chosen: GOD is the one that chose.
Now why did God chose? Because he knew they believed (Non Calvinist)? No it says he say.... THAT THEY MAY BELIEVE.

Words indeed are important but that alone creates no validity without context brother in which to understand those words.. This verse is not an island unto itself but is part of a larger discourse - which is specifically about the Nation of Israel, of whom we both know and understand that not all of them were saved. 'My servant' is a constant representation of the Nation of Israel as seen in Isa 41:8 and repeated in 43:1. Also this portion is specifically concerning the prophecies of Him verses other gods (if any - none) to prove who was the true God. Israel is His witness that He is the true God because His promises and prophecies to this nation whom He chose 'for a witness' that He is the True God. Thus through that Nation He revealed to the whole world that He is the one True God and that in doing so they (the Nation of Israel) [come to] know him, and therefore believe in Him that He is the One True and Living God. Remember however that not every person who made up the nation believed but they as a Nation was chosen to be His witnesses. And the rest of the passages go on to declare it's main theme - He is God alone and there are no other gods.

What is most interesting is that the blind and deaf spoken of are His own people (Isa 42:19 and following) Even when He allows them to see - they reject Him, and in opening their ears - they still reject Him. However God goes on into Chapter 43 declaring His prophecies of the Nation coming back to Him will come to pass as proof that He is the one True God amounst many false idols. Now since this is dealing with the Nation of Israel can we state biblically that everyone which made up the Nation believed or better that everyone who made up that Nation were all believers?

Chosen to UNDERSTAND

and understand that I [am] he:

Yes, I covered that according to the context it was intended. That they would understand He was the true God amounst many false idols/gods and as His witnesses the declarers of such.

Dead men do not understand and CAN"T believe

If you believe this....THIS IS CALVINISM 101

True, that is what Calvinism teaches but I believe scripture teaches on this subject differently that Calvinism.

Spiritually dead men can and do understand those things that 'God' reveals to them as stated by scripture, seen in many places. But we can see this with apparent clarity in two particular passages. In these passages we see those in darkness and who are slaves, and under the power of Satan (which are descriptors of the unregenerate) do understand and can believe via the working God the Holy Spirit. As seen here:

1 Cor 7:22 For those who were slaves when called to faith in the Lord are the Lord's freed people

Study it out carefully
In your position one can not respond to the calling unless regenerate and thus if regenerate they are no longer slaves nor are they in darkness. And yet this verse contradicts that position openly. If they 'were slaves' when He called to them who are His freed people then they were not regenerate.

And secondly:

Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Notice where they are 'when' they turn toward God. It was while in darkness, and thus under the power of Satan - to receive forgiveness.

Anyway brother, you and I both know we can go at this for days, weeks even. But with respect to this thread and person who opened it, I stated (and still do) for him to speak with his pastor and study himself as well. We can set this aside for his benifit because I'm not trying to persuade him one way or another but letting God give the increase as He sees fit in this believers life and walk.

 

[Allan]

God made Paul willing to believe after He made a spiritually dead Paul, persecutor of the Church, spiritually alive, what we call regeneration.

I have posted this before but will do so once more but in link form.
Here is one of my posts from another thread

 

[Me4Him]

Me4Him - as a Non-Cal I must say that you profess closest soterological view to true semi-Pelagainism than I have ever heard, if not somewhat partial toward Pelagianism. That is not a good thing, ever brother.

Ro 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

"God's Grace" is "greater" that "ALL SIN", "IF" man will accept it.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is .........not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[webdog]

So Paul was now alve and able to choose. What if he chose not to believe? would he be alive forever or would God take the regeneration away?

Or did Paul have to choose salvation once he was made alive?

Great question...can't wait for a cal to take a stab at it

 

[OldRegular]

So Paul was now alve and able to choose. What if he chose not to believe? would he be alive forever or would God take the regeneration away?

Or did Paul have to choose salvation once he was made alive?

The best answer to your somewhat obtuse question is presented in the following quotation from 19th Century Southern Baptist John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology, pages 277ff, as he speaks of the affect on man of regeneration:

“So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

 

[Tom Bryant]

sorry about the "obtuse" nature of my question, but maybe you can give a clear answer to the questions:
Could Paul have chosen not to believe?

If he could choose not to believe, what happened to his regeneration? Was the new life taken away?

I am thankful for the quote but it doesn't answer the questions. All of us would agree that if anyone is in Christ, they are new creations! I am thankful for that and the blessings that God gives with salvation. But that does not answer my question.

Or maybe I'm just too obtuse.

 

[Rippon]

Could Paul have chosen not to believe?

No. He was predestined to believe.

 

[saturneptune]

So Paul was now alve and able to choose. What if he chose not to believe? would he be alive forever or would God take the regeneration away?

Or did Paul have to choose salvation once he was made alive?

Once he was regenerated, he was under grace (irresistable grace for the Calvin fans), and was not in his nature to not choose God. Actually, God chose Paul before the foundation of the world. No, God does not take regeneration away.

 

[Winman]

Hi, new here, hope you don't mind me joining in.

I do not believe anyone is predestined to believe or not believe.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

If you read the context, Jesus is speaking to unbelievers here. Why would Jesus say "that ye might be saved" if it was already determined they would never be saved?

35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Why do they not have God's word abiding in them? Because they refuse to believe Jesus.

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Why would Jesus say such a thing? How can they come to Jesus if God has already determined they cannot? Why would Jesus criticize them for this if it is beyond their control?

41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

It is not that is predetermined these men cannot believe. It is because they do not love God. And Jesus knows their hearts, this is why he can make these statements to these men.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Here is the problem, here is the reason they cannot believe, because they are proud and seek the honour of men, and not God.

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

Again, why would Jesus criticize them for unbelief if they cannot possibly believe?

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Yes, those sheep that knew Jesus's voice were also those who believed Moses and the prophets.

 

[Jarthur001]

Great question...can't wait for a cal to take a stab at it

???

And you keep saying you know Calvinism. :laugh:

two letters.....

I
G

 

[Jarthur001]

I, like some other Calvinists, do not agree with the 'logical assumption' that regeneration precedes.

That is to bad. Its logical because it is in the Bible.

It is declared by many scholarly Calvinists who hold to this view that this is not something that can be proven 'biblically'.

Not very good scholars if you ask me.

They must have never read John 1...
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

LIFE comes before LIGHT

How about 1 John 5...?

1 John 5

1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ .....................................has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him

Also John 6...

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all.......

In a way you will find the right order if you read these 3 verses....
1 Corinthians 2:12-14

12Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.

14The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

You must have the Spirit, before you can understand....right?

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God .......1) chose you as the firstfruits .....2) to be saved, .........3) through sanctification(SET APART) .......4) by the Spirit (born from above).................4) and belief in the truth.

14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 John 4 says only thos that are "FROM GOD"...which is talking about being born in his family,....only those from God will listen to the gospel. Those that will not listen and not born again.

1 John 4...We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Tons more...


Allan, I will not address the rest of your post. You knew the verses I will post as well as I do. I will just point out that Calvinst and Arminain views are not "close" as you have been posting. When we talk it through we always see this.

Now, you would have to agree with me on this, because you debate. If it didn't matter and things were "close" just a matter of mechanics as you claim, you would just go have another cup of coffee and say whatever....not waste your time with debate.

But the fact is.....you do see my view as wrong and your view as right, and therefore you post in order to let others know the RIGHT view as you see it. It does matter.

Which is fine. I do the same. However, I don't think it's only as you say..."mechanics". It's not mechanics. The two views will NEVER match up. Its one or the other. It's black or white.


peace bro

 

[BaptistBob]

Paul did not believe before God move on him and brought him into the light of the truth. Paul was not WILLING just as all the other Jewish leaders. God made Paul willing to believe.

When I was a Calvinist this argument always struck me as an odd one for C's to use. God had to confront Paul the way he did to get him to come around, but that is a non-C position. After all, the C position is that God regenerates apart from the potential convert's will.

The confrontation did nothing to facilitate irresistible regeneration. But according to the non-C, it was totally necessary for God to confront Paul.

 

[Jarthur001]

Hi, new here, hope you don't mind me joining in.

hello winman...and welcome to BB.

I do not believe anyone is predestined to believe or not believe.

Tha's to bad.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.

If you read the context, Jesus is speaking to unbelievers here. Why would Jesus say "that ye might be saved" if it was already determined they would never be saved?

Why are we told to "sin not", when God knows we will sin?

35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

ok..

Why do they not have God's word abiding in them? Because they refuse to believe Jesus.

yep.. Also read romans 3

39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

ok..

[

B]Why would Jesus say such a thing? How can they come to Jesus if God has already determined they cannot? Why would Jesus criticize them for this if it is beyond their control?[/B]

these verses are addressing a few things. Verse 39 is toward the "Jews" that found salvation in "Scripture". They knew the number of words in each book. They know the middle verse of each book. They knew all the facts about the Bible, but they didn't know the message. They could quote the scripture by heart, but didn't know what it said. The felt loving the Bible was salvation.

verse 40 just tells that they WILL NEVER come..(Romans 3).....in order to have REAL salvation. Its DT 101

41 I receive not honour from men.
42 But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

ok

It is not that is predetermined these men cannot believe. It is because they do not love God. And Jesus knows their hearts, this is why he can make these statements to these men.

Well....1st this is not talking about election. But the point you are trying to make is addressed in 1 John 5. Also look at John 1. Man can not love God ....unless he is born of God.

43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

ok

Here is the problem, here is the reason they cannot believe, because they are proud and seek the honour of men, and not God.

yep....and so is all men. so....God elects

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

ok....

Again, why would Jesus criticize them for unbelief if they cannot possibly believe?

oh boy... Well why does the Law tells is not the lie.....when God knows we will lie at least once????

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

ok..

Yes, those sheep that knew Jesus's voice were also those who believed Moses and the prophets.

humm.... well...the point that our Lord was making is that HE...Christ is all through the OT.