Frustration over debate about Calvinism

[Jarthur001]

When I was a Calvinist

Sorry about your luck...

this argument always struck me as an odd one for C's to use.

sorry about your logic....

God had to confront Paul the way he did to get him to come around, but that is a non-C position.

sorr...ok never mind.

well...I'm not sure what to tell you Bob, other than Calvinist always say that God will over power the will of man. This is what happen to Paul, who was not looking to be saved, but God save him anyway. Now...if your saying this over powering of mans will is the view of the Arminian...lets do a high 5......gets some coffee and stop the debate.

After all, the C position is that God regenerates apart from the potential convert's will.

yep...and still is.

The confrontation did nothing to facilitate irresistible regeneration.

But according to the non-C, it was totally necessary for God to confront Paul.

Who's idea was it to blind Paul and talk to him from Heaven? How about the non-believer Roy from NYC. Do you think Roy will believe if God blinds him and talkes to him from Heaven? Does God blind all people and talk to all people from heaven?

Why did Adam eat the apple? Could God have stopped him? Could God have blinded him and talked to him?

God steps in and speaks to some...and some he does not. 1 John 4...


Paul's will was OVER POWERED. Will Roy's will from NYC be over powered?

Only God knows.

 

[Jarthur001]

Once he was regenerated, he was under grace (irresistable grace for the Calvin fans), and was not in his nature to not choose God. Actually, God chose Paul before the foundation of the world. No, God does not take regeneration away.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

pretty clear

Let me add one thing to this.

Irresistable grace is a point in time, not a state of man as some think.

 

[BaptistBob]

verse 40 just tells that they WILL NEVER come.

No it does not.

(Romans 3).....in order to have REAL salvation.

Actually, James Dunn's commentary has this right. The catena of verses in that chapter are from the OT, and were originally directed at non-covenant peoples, not Israel.

Paul is about to say that God overlooked Israel's sin until the arrival of Christ (3:23-25), so the attitude here is that apart from a covenant with God, the Jew would be counted as the nations if sin were the only basis of judgement. But as I said, their sins were "overlooked."

Dunn explains it better. This link is by someone who almost nails it, but I'll explain more later.

http://www.chiuni.ac.uk/theology/documents/CatenaofRom3.10-14.doc

 

[BaptistBob]

Now...if your saying this over powering of mans will is the view of the Arminian...lets do a high 5......gets some coffee and stop the debate. .

No, what I'm saying is so clear as to blind the eyes of the obdurate.

According to C theology, irresistible regeneration is what is required to get a man to believe, and nothing else. Indeed, nothing else will get a man to reconsider. So pointing out that Paul was confronted in this way helps the non-C, not the C, since the non-C says that the confrontation was one of the elements needed to get Paul to come around.

But we can still do coffee.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As I see it, many of the problems arise from there being multiple definitions of Calvinism. I.e., how I define the word is diferent from how the Dutch Reformed theology professors at Calvin College define it, they are different from John Gill, who in turn is different from Charles Spurgeon or William Carey.

I don't mind all that much being called a Calvinist. After all I trace my heritage back to the Particular Baptists of England not the Generals. However, my brand looks at Calvinism more as a model that is adaptable to the clear evidence of Scripture (as I read it). In other words, I fit my Calvinism to fit Scriptures, I don't fit Scriptures to fit my Calvinism.

Since God's logic is beyond my logic, I need to accept that certain points of soteriology are theological quarks and black holes. I can describe them but I can't necessarily explain them. Even though, God has them harmonized in His mind.

 

[Jarthur001]

No, what I'm saying is so clear as to blind the eyes of the obdurate.

Than why is it you cannot see?

According to C theology, irresistible regeneration is what is required to get a man to believe, and nothing else.

Lets run your idea by some well known Calvinist to see if you do indeed understand what you are talking about....

Brother A.A Hodge you are a well known Calvinist, do you agree with Bob here, when he says "nothing else" comes about in salvation to get a person to believe?

Well NO!!....The Reformed doctrine teaches as follows:

(l) As to the nature of regeneration: (a) There are in the soul, besides its several faculties, habits or dispositions, innate or acquired, which lay the foundation for the soul's exercising its faculties in a particular way. (b) These dispositions (moral) are anterior to moral action, and determine its character as good or evil. (c) In creation God made the dispositions of Adam's heart holy. (d) In regeneration God recreates the governing dispositions of the regenerated man's heart holy. Regeneration is therefore essentially the communication of a new spiritual life, and is properly called a 'new birth.'

(2) As to its efficient cause: It is effected by divine power acting supernaturally and immediately upon the soul, quickening it to spiritual life, and implanting gracious principles of action.

(3) As to man's action: Conversion (conversio actualis) instantly follows, as the change of action consequent upon the change of character, and consists in repentance, faith, holy obedience,

This "communication of a new spiritual life"...what is meant by that?

Well known Calvinist..John Hendryx

All Calvinists have historically believed that it is vital that the gospel must be preached to the unregenerate sinner in order for him/her to be saved. The Reformers called this the ministry of Word and Spirit. No one will ever be justified or made right with God without receiving Christ, as preached from the Scripture. ... that is why I have personally been a missionary for 10 years.

I see, so Scripture is needed ?

The word of God does not work "ex opere operato," (automatically) rather, it is the work of the Holy Spirit sovereignly dispensing grace (John 3:8), quickening the heart THROUGH THE WORD to bring forth life. So the written word is not the material of the spiritual new birth, but rather its means or medium. "The word is not the begetting principle itself, but only that by which it works: the vehicle of the mysterious germinating power".

Wait are you guys saying ...all that read Gods word will be born again?

Asahel Nettleton - That the Holy Spirit makes use of the word and many other instruments to bring sinners to Christ, I have no doubt. But that men are naturally so inclined, as to approve of and obey the precepts of the gospel, unless some peculiar course of sin or prejudice prevent them, contradicts the whole tenor of the gospel, in which it is a fundamental principle, that by nature we are children of wrath, and that we are at enmity with God and blinded to the light of his truth and dead in trespasses and sins. That the Holy Spirit is communicated to all in a sufficient manner to save them, entirely overthrows the idea of any special grace, and makes one man as much born of God as another! Our text says that as many as received Christ, and believed on his name, were born of God. If so, others who did not, were not born of God, and the undistinguishing influences of the Spirit cannot be maintained.

Ok...That seems clear. So Regeneration happens through the communication of a new spiritual life by Holy Spirit that uses Gods word as the means or medium. But...The Word alone does not bring about new birth. Holy Spirit must work on the heart. Is that it?

Well knewn Calvinist John Piper says...

Regeneration causes faith—with no lapse in time. Faith is the seeing of Jesus with the once-blind eyes.

Then faith is the root of love. By faith the born-again heart first embraces Jesus as the one who has already loved others perfectly, and then from that grows the power to love others, as imperfect as that love will be.

The order of causality is crucial: new birth, then faith, then love.

Thanks John.

Well you guys seem to agree that our bother Bob is wrong on this. But do all Calvinist believe like this?

PINK - Regeneration is indispensably necessary before any soul can enter Heaven. In order to love spiritual things a man must be made spiritual. .........None can dwell with God and be eternally happy in His presence until a radical change has been wrought in him, a change from sin to holiness; and this change must take place on earth.

"Regeneration is the communication of the divine nature to men by the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Word.

A.J. Gordon

"Regeneration is inseperable from its effects and one of its effects is faith."
John Murray

**********

Well Bob, these Calvinist disagree with you.


Bob says....

Indeed, nothing else will get a man to reconsider.

reconsider what?

So pointing out that Paul was confronted in this way helps the non-C, not the C, since the non-C says that the confrontation was one of the elements needed to get Paul to come around.

What do you Calvinist think???

CALVINIST....:laugh::1_grouphug:

But we can still do coffee.

ok. One xLarge cafe mocha

 

[Tom Bryant]

JArthur - Thanks for answering... Your answer is logical from the point of view of the Calvinist. We have no choice in the matter. God supernaturally makes us alive and we must choose salvation.

I've been waiting for someone to just say that. I won't argue. I don't agree. I don't think that's what the Bible teaches, but I appreciate the honest answer to such an obtuse question. :tongue3:

 

[Jarthur001]

JArthur - Thanks for answering... Your answer is logical from the point of view of the Calvinist. We have no choice in the matter. God supernaturally makes us alive and we must choose salvation.

I've been waiting for someone to just say that. I won't argue. I don't agree. I don't think that's what the Bible teaches, but I appreciate the honest answer to such an obtuse question. :tongue3:

Hello Tom,

Let's be clear. When you say...."we must choose salvation", it is stated in such a way that many may think it is forced on the person, which indeed is not the case. As I stated before, IG is a point in time. Its the moment when ones eyes are open for the 1st time, and at that point in time, they for the 1st time really see their need of salvation. They want salvation, they long for it, for at that point in time, grace indeed becomes irresistable.

As scripture says....And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

and with that new heart comes.....a desire to follow God.

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

 

[OldRegular]

sorry about the "obtuse" nature of my question, but maybe you can give a clear answer to the questions:
Could Paul have chosen not to believe?

If he could choose not to believe, what happened to his regeneration? Was the new life taken away?

I am thankful for the quote but it doesn't answer the questions. All of us would agree that if anyone is in Christ, they are new creations! I am thankful for that and the blessings that God gives with salvation. But that does not answer my question.

Or maybe I'm just too obtuse.

If you had read Dagg's comments carefully you would see that those who are regenerated would want to believe.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Hello Tom,

Let's be clear. When you say...."we must choose salvation", it is stated in such a way that many may think it is forced on the person, which indeed is not the case. As I stated before, IG is a point in time. Its the moment when ones eyes are open for the 1st time, and at that point in time, they for the 1st time really see their need of salvation. They want salvation, they long for it, for at that point in time, grace indeed becomes irresistable.

As scripture says....And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

and with that new heart comes.....a desire to follow God.

And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

Wait... now you're saying that at that moment in time, they are free to choose. But because they see salvation for the first time and feel that need, they will choose salvation. But they don't have to choose salvation. But if God's grace is irresistible they have to at that moment, it's hardly a choice.

Or if they are for the first time free to choose doesn't there exist the possibility is that someone could presumably choose not to be saved?

Maybe the problem is with your word of choice "irresistible" When my child was a baby, I picked her up in my arms. My choice was irresistible to her. She couldn't have broken away. Is God's grace for that moment in time irresistible?

About the verses, you quoted, we both agree about the Scriptural truths you presented. I would just put it in a different order. That those things follow salvation.

Old Regular - I read the comments carefully... it did not to me answer my question. I guess you're just brighter than this obtuse old guy,

 

[Jarthur001]

If you had read Dagg's comments carefully you would see that those who are regenerated would want to believe.

indeed.

Understanding human will is the key to this debate. Why do we choose what we choose? It is our desire...our love that drives use. If we love sin, we will always choose sin over God. That is why the Calvinist says that man's will is bound by sin.

When God changes the heart,..........And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
..................
this is followed by a new love, that causes us to follow God. Sin and rejecting of Gods will is still there, but the desire is to follow God.

 

[Winman]

Jarthur001 said:

oh boy... Well why does the Law tells is not the lie.....when God knows we will lie at least once????

Because the law was written to reveal our sin to ourselves.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

You are not going to come to Christ unless you realize you are a lost sinner. The law makes it clear and obvious to the honest heart that we are all sinners.

If a person cannot resist the will of God, then why would the scriptures say;

Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

It is clear here that to listen to God is a choice of the will. Man can choose whether to harden his own heart or not.

Also, in the same chapter

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

If God alone determines whether a man believes or not, this verse would not make sense. There is no reason for a person to even consider belief or unbelief. If God wills you to believe you will, if God wills you to not believe you won't according to your belief. This makes no sense at all.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

Why would Jesus tell someone to believe in him, if God himself chooses who believes or not?

 

[Allan]

This will most likely be [hopefully] my last post here. I am writing this only to answer you and your passages as I see them in scripture and context. I hope you are having a good day in the Lord James. Mine is good but also uneventful as I'm just relaxing today due to some issues on going but good and blessed all the same.

That is to bad. Its logical because it is in the Bible.

No, it is a logical 'conclusion' because it is not chronologically stated in scripture as such thus it is a logical order from their theological perspective.

Not very good scholars if you ask me.

So you contend that men like Hodge, Sproul, Pink, Gill and men the like are "not very good scholars"? Well I wouldn't personally go that far, though they do make quite a few wrong assumptions on various points here and there.

They must have never read John 1...
In him was life, and that life was the light of men.

LIFE comes before LIGHT

Yes, In Jesus is life (eternal life) and that life was the light of men or better 'that life illiminated men'. If we take your understanding of what the passage means - that one must be alive (in Christ) to be able to have light then by your own stated position you must also contend for universalism because just a few verses down John also states the He is the light the enlightens every man

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. - ESV

If light comes only after life has been imparted then your contension is that all men are saved (in Christ) since every man/all men are enlighted by Him.

How about 1 John 5...?

This is a very poor place to try to proof text brother.
You must remember that the primary meaning of the Greek tenses is not time, but type of action (sometimes called aktionsart). This passage is not about 'when' it happened but 'that' it happened and the context of the passage and book share this same fact.

Also John 6...

Of course it is the Spirit who gives life (salvation) and not man himself. No one disputes this.

In a way you will find the right order if you read these 3 verses....
1 Corinthians 2:12-14

Actaully there is an order here but it refutes your view
However what must be noted first is the context of the passages in question. And that is no man can understand spiritual things unless the Spirit of God reveal them to him. Because man can only understand for or by himself those things that pertain men and therefore needs to have the Holy Spirit explain them to us since He alone understands those things with pertain the spiritual things. With this context in view you will see prior to verse 12 (in verse 10) the passage states the the Spirit has revealed these things And then states after that "We having now recieved".

It is of note that the 'received' is not passive but the tense here is Active-Indicative (meaning the person is the one doing the action and is a statement of fact). And therefore the person in question is 'we' doing the action of receiving the Spirit of God; and His being given was to teach them all the things that have been freely given to them. So the order given here is 1) Spirit of God revealing and then 2) Him being received. This follows the scriptural pattern whereby we do not recieve the Spirit of God except by faith (Gal 3:14) and not prior to it.

You must have the Spirit, before you can understand....right?

No, the Spirit must reveal in order for us to understand.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

I love how you have to add to scripture to make it say what you want. "By the Spirt" does not equate to 'born from above'. That is your theological 'assumption' with no warrent for it to be added here in this verse. The salvation of a person happens by two things in conjunction with each other.
There is no order here displayed 'at all' but what is found is that which is necessary to reveal a person is born-from-above/saved. These two things are the sanctification (setting apart) of the Spirit AND (in conjuction with this) belief/faith in the truth are those which reveal that a person is, in truth, saved. We know that salvation is something God does to man and not man to himself. But also neither is there sanctification apart from faith since scripture states we are sanctified BY faith. (Acts 26:18). In light of this what we have here in this passage is not an order of salvation but those things that establish ones salvation which is in Christ Jesus or better establish that one is indeed saved.

1 John 4 says only thos that are "FROM GOD"...which is talking about being born in his family,....only those from God will listen to the gospel. Those that will not listen and not born again.

LOL.. that is not talking about the gospel. Talk about forcing a view into a passage of scripture :laugh:

Allan, I will not address the rest of your post. You knew the verses I will post as well as I do.

Iwasn't asking for other passages but for you to deal with those passages which specifically state those who believed were called while they were stll slaves [to sin] and that they turned to Christ while still in darkness and in the power Satan for forgiveness.

I will just point out that Calvinst and Arminain views are not "close" as you have been posting. When we talk it through we always see this.

Now, you would have to agree with me on this, because you debate. If it didn't matter and things were "close" just a matter of mechanics as you claim, you would just go have another cup of coffee and say whatever....not waste your time with debate.

No actually your wrong or at the very least that is how you view things. I disagree with my C-brothers over the mechanics an can still fellowshp with them and even preach the gospel message and go witnessing with them. We still hold to same immutable truths and are still 'close' in our views. Thus I can debate and still go out for a cup of coffee saying 'whatever' with my Calvinistic friends even if many of them can't do the same toward me.

Even Cals debate over the mechanics of their own views with other cals but that does not mean they don't talk/debate those issues when they have differing views of and still not go out for coffee/sweet tea Why do they waste their time since their views are 'so similar'? Because everyone wants others to know what we know and if it can be proven wrong we want to change it to what is truth. We desire to know as much as we can and thus talking and debating are good for those who are similar and those who diverge greatly.

Which is fine. I do the same. However, I don't think it's only as you say..."mechanics". It's not mechanics. The two views will NEVER match up. Its one or the other. It's black or white.

No?

Do you believe in depravity? I do
Do you believe in election? I do
Do you believe in atonement? I do
Do you believe in grace based salvation through faith? I do
Do you believe in Perseverance/preseverance of the saints? I do

If you do then our views of the immutable truths MATCH UP. Where we have distinction is in the mechanics of how those truths operate. And thus before each one of those we have qualifier to denote NOT a difference of immutable truths but a difference with respect to the mechanics brother.

peace bro

I agree. I think I'm going to step out for a while and maybe just watch. I didn't wish to take this thread down this path but since it has it is best to just leave it lie and hopefully person who started it can get some good advice with respect to the OP.

Peace to you also brother and blessing many times over.

 

[Me4Him]

OT.

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

NT.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,


Tribulation Period.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God,

Re 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What is the one common denominator between all these verse???

 

[BaptistBob]

Than why is it you cannot see?


Lets run your idea by some well known Calvinist to see if you do indeed understand what you are talking about....

Brother A.A Hodge you are a well known Calvinist, do you agree with Bob here, when he says "nothing else" comes about in salvation to get a person to believe?



This "communication of a new spiritual life"...what is meant by that?

Well known Calvinist..John Hendryx


I see, so Scripture is needed ?



Wait are you guys saying ...all that read Gods word will be born again?



Ok...That seems clear. So Regeneration happens through the communication of a new spiritual life by Holy Spirit that uses Gods word as the means or medium. But...The Word alone does not bring about new birth. Holy Spirit must work on the heart. Is that it?

Well knewn Calvinist John Piper says...



Thanks John.

Well you guys seem to agree that our bother Bob is wrong on this. But do all Calvinist believe like this?








**********

Well Bob, these Calvinist disagree with you.


Bob says....

reconsider what?



What do you Calvinist think???

CALVINIST....:laugh::1_grouphug:


ok. One xLarge cafe mocha

The issue wasn't whether or not you could find a Calvinist that agreed with you. This appears to be a childish manuver to attempt to avoid directly responding to what I said. The fact that you quote people that don't address what I said makes the act even more silly.

What I said remains unrefuted. Simply posturing by quoting others that don't directly address my exegesis is not enough.

 

[Jarthur001]

So you contend that men like Hodge, Sproul, Pink, Gill and men the like are "not very good scholars"? Well I wouldn't personally go that far, though they do make quite a few wrong assumptions on various points here and there.

Hello Allan,

I'll skip my reply. To lazy to type a long one today.

I would like for you to give reason why you would say what you said above. Now up front, I will tell you I have not read much of Gill. He could indeed agree with you. However, many people call Gill hyper, which would make it hard for me to believe till I read a line where he agrees with you.

Hodge I have read and know very well. I quote him all the time. I know what he believes. In fact, I quoted him in this thread which agrees with me.

Pink...what can I say? I have read ever work I know of his and again I am sure he is with me on this. I am 100% sure Pink agrees with me.

Pink...

This Divine illumination is not by dreams, visions, or mere feelings, but the revelation of things to his mind and soul which have been all along in sacred Scriptures. Now the blessed Holy Spirit removes the blindfold from his eyes and opens his heart to receive the written Word. (Acts 16:14) Then He begins to powerfully apply to the mind and conscience some portion of it. The result is that the one renewed is able to say, "One thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see." (John 9:25)

To be more particular, The sinner is now enlightened in the knowledge of his own terrible condition. He may earlier have known many Bible facts, even doctrinal statements, received much instruction; BUT NOW, the solemn declarations of God's Word concerning his fallen state are brought home in piercing power to him. He no longer justifies himself by comparison with his fellow man, he measures himself by the law of God. He is now terribly convicted by his own uncleanness and wickedness before a thrice holy God. ( Isaiah 1:6; 64:6)

By this new spiritual light which God communicates in REGENERATION he now sees that the "wages" he has earned by sin deserve eternal death. That he has placed himself under the awful wrath of God. He now realizes that he has lived his whole life in utter independence of God, having no regard for His glory, what pleased and displeased a holy God. He is thus brought to cry out "WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?"

He now understands truly the awful malignity of sin, as being not only contrary to the whole law of God, but contrary to the true nature of God Himself. He is convinced of the absolute impossibility of contributing anything to obtain his own deliverance. He no longer has any confidence in himself; he has been brought to the end of himself. As Paul wrote "He is without Christ and without hope in this world." (Eph.2)

Thus his mouth is stopped and he confesses himself GUILTY BEFORE GOD, and justly liable to His awful vengeance, both because of the plague of his own heart and his numerous transgressions.

HE NOW SEES THE SUITABILITY OF CHRIST

By means of this illumination the renewed soul, under the Holy Spirit through the Word, now perceives (comprehends) how WELL SUITED Christ Jesus is to his poor wretched condition. The only hope he clings to is the prospect of obtaining deliverance from the "wrath to come" through the vicarious life and death of the Lord Jesus (i.e. Jesus Christ lived for and died right in the very place of a people). This keeps his soul from being overwhelmed with grief and from sinking into complete despondency because of the SIGHT of his sins.

As the Holy Spirit (through the Word) presents to him the infinite merits of Christ's obedience and righteousness, His tender compassion for repentant sinners, His great power to save, desires to share in that work now possess his heart. He is now resolved to look for salvation in no other. (person, working, or church) Under the gracious influences of the Holy Spirit, the soul is drawn by such words as these: "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." or "Him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out,"and he is led to apply to Him for pardon, cleansing, peace, righteousness, strength.

REPENTANCE

Other acts besides turning to Christ, such as REPENTANCE, which is a godly sorrow for sin, a hating of sin as sin, and an earnest desire to forsake and be completely delivered from its pollution. In the light of God, the renewed soul now perceives the utter vanity of the world, and the worthlessness of those former worthless toys and perishing trifles which the godless strive so hard to acquire. He has been awakened from the dream-sleep of death, and things are now seen in their true nature. Time is precious, not to be frittered away. God in His awesome Majesty is an object of godly fear and reverence. His holy law is accepted as just and good. All of these perceptions (new sight, or new way of seeing what the Word has stated) and actions are included in that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord. In some these actions are more vigorous than in others, and consequently, are more seen by the man himself. But the fruits of them are visible to others in external acts.

THE WILL FREED FROM BONDAGE

By nature,(the state into which all men are born), the will of man is free in only one direction: AWAY FROM GOD. Sin has enslaved the will, therefore, do we need to be "made free" (John 8:36). The two states are contrasted in Romans 6: "free from righteousness" v20 and "free from sin" v 18, when we have been made alive unto God. At the new birth the will is liberated from the "bondage of corruption" (Rom. 8:21 cf II Peter 2:19), and rendered conformable to the will of God (Psalm 119:97). In our unregenerate state the will was naturally rebellious, and its language was, "Who is the Lord that I should obey Him?" (Exodus 5:2) But the Father promised the Son, "Thy people shall BE WILLING in the day of thy power" (Ps.110:3), and this is accomplished when God "worketh in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Phil 2:13; Heb.13:21)

"A new heart, a new spirit...I will take out your stony heart...and I will put my Spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes." (Heb.8:10; Ezek.36:26-27) The regenerated freely consent to and gladly choose to walk in subjection to Christ, being anxious now to obey Him in all things, even though imperfectly. His authority is his only rule, His love the constraining power: "If a man love me, he WILL KEEP my words." (John 14:23)

The will is so emancipated from the power of sin to be enabled to answer the Divine Command.

Sproul..I have read some, and I listen to him nearly every week. I'm on his mailing list. I have many CDs by him. I know pretty much where he stands on this subject. Now...there may be some strange line that seems to agree with you, but I would have to see the full context to believe it. I can give you a handful of quotes from him saying that the new birth comes 1st.

SPROUL.."Unless regeneration takes place first, there is no possibility of faith."

Please read this....

LINK

*******
So I am not clear why you would say something like this. I'm not sure about Gill, but I would love to see what you have to make such claims.

 

[Jarthur001]

The issue wasn't whether or not you could find a Calvinist that agreed with you. This appears to be a childish manuver to attempt to avoid directly responding to what I said. The fact that you quote people that don't address what I said makes the act even more silly.

What I said remains unrefuted. Simply posturing by quoting others that don't directly address my exegesis is not enough.

Bob...Your whole point was based on what "CALVINIST" believe.

BOB SAYS>>>LINK post 44

According to C theology, irresistible regeneration is what is required to get a man to believe, and nothing else. Indeed, nothing else will get a man to reconsider. So pointing out that Paul was confronted in this way helps the non-C, not the C, since the non-C says that the confrontation was one of the elements needed to get Paul to come around

ACCORDING TO C THEOLOGY.....I have showed you are WRONG by quoting top Calvinist. Please try to say focused on the case YOU was trying to build. At any rate...case closed. :BangHead::BangHead:

 

[Jarthur001]

Jarthur001 said:

Because the law was written to reveal our sin to ourselves.

Well...that is one of 3 things that the Law is for. But that is another subject altogether. I simply used your logic on YOU.

Maybe I should have pointed you to Romans 9, where Paul address ...."Is God unfair, if no one can resist Gods will." Which....is really what you are asking me. right?

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, ..........and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

 

[BaptistBob]

Bob...Your whole point was based on what "CALVINIST" believe.

BOB SAYS>>>LINK post 44



ACCORDING TO C THEOLOGY.....I have showed you are WRONG by quoting top Calvinist. Please try to say focused on the case YOU was trying to build. At any rate...case closed. :BangHead::BangHead:

Jarthur001, you quoted Calvinists saying EXACTLY what I claimed they say. How does that refute my point?

The issue was the passage in question. I said that the passage in question disproved C theology. Then you go and quote C's saying EXACTLY what I claimed they say. Thank you for proving my point.

Sheeesh!

 

[BaptistBob]

Well...that is one of 3 things that the Law is for. But that is another subject altogether. I simply used your logic on YOU.

Maybe I should have pointed you to Romans 9, where Paul address ...."Is God unfair, if no one can resist Gods will." Which....is really what you are asking me. right?

The comment by Paul is a response to Paul's opposition. The opposition is wrong, so Paul goes on to clarify that God is working to save them.

Paul's opposition claims that God's word to Israel has failed. And if Israel is God's people via a covenant, then how can God find faut? After all they are a covenant people by his will.

Paul goes on to explain that they have been cut off because of disbelief, but they can be grafted back in.

Again, Paul's opposition misunderstands the situation. Every question they ask demonstrates that.