Frustration over debate about Calvinism

[OldRegular]

OR, are you familiar with the term "circular reasoning" ? Because that is what you are demonstrating.

You may call it circular reasoning. The Bible calls it the truth.

 

[Lux et veritas]

I would like to add to what Winman said about our children. I used to require my son to mow the yard. Now if he refused, he got punished, and rightly so for disobeying me. But if I told him to mow the yard, yet wouldn't give him gas for the mower, would it be right for me to punish him for not mowing the yard? Of course not. But that is the Calvinist view of God. He commands everyone to believe but denies some the ability to do so and then condemns them to hell. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

This does not deal with the doctrinal difficulty in the fall of man and his consequent loss of ability and will to commune with God and to please Him.

We must never forget that a person's inability to do something does not negate the king's right to demand certain lawful actions. For example, a king has the right to tax his subjects in his kingdom. The fact that some may not be able to pay that tax, does not mean the king has no right to demand it. He may or may not exercise mercy on one or two or more of his subjects, but that is still not at the expense of his right to demand.

Your illustration would be more apt in the area of serving the Lord, but falls grossly short of answering the biblical issues of salvation. God does not demand service of us that He does not provide the grace and means with which to obey and accomplish that service; but even then you are still back to the concept of God providing the talents or gifts with which we then in turn serve Him acceptably.

 

[Amy.G]

For example, a king has the right to tax his subjects in his kingdom. The fact that some may not be able to pay that tax, does not mean the king has no right to demand it. He may or may not exercise mercy on one or two or more of his subjects, but that is still not at the expense of his right to demand.

And what would you call a king like that? Unjust perhaps?

Even in our messed up society, people who earn below a certain amount do not have to pay taxes. Is the US government more merciful than God?

God has every right to do anything and require anything of His creation because He is God, but to be unjust goes completely against His nature and something He will not do.

If you know of any scripture to prove otherwise, I would like to know what it is.

 

[Lux et veritas]

And what would you call a king like that? Unjust perhaps?

Even in our messed up society, people who earn below a certain amount do not have to pay taxes. Is the US government more merciful than God?

God has every right to do anything and require anything of His creation because He is God, but to be unjust goes completely against His nature and something He will not do.

If you know of any scripture to prove otherwise, I would like to know what it is.

Answer me this. Was God unjust when He offered NO MERCY or plan to redeem fallen angels? Were angelic beings no less deserving of at least an OFFER of redemption?

I have never met an anti-calvinist who would claim God was unjust in simply damning every fallen angel to an eternal hell.

Amy, a little axiom that I use in understanding Scripture has helped me on many questions far more perplexing than election, definite atonement, sovereign grace, etc. It is simply this:

Whatever God does is right whether I understand it or not.

 

[Allan]

Answer me this. Was God unjust when He offered NO MERCY or plan to redeem fallen angels? Were angelic beings no less deserving of at least an OFFER of redemption?

Answer her question first and THEN pose your question. God can not be unjust and thus there are some things that God not only will not but absolutely can not do. God is just and thus all that He does can not contradict this.

We are not talking about 'being fair' but being 'just'.

Whatever God does is right whether I understand it or not.

True, however we do not take mens reasoning and apply them to God's actions or will. Yes, God does whatever He will but that will not contradict His nature, His character, and His word that He has spoken.


I'm not arguing here (in this post) for any one side but am simply qualifying your above statement.

 

[Allan]

We must never forget that a person's inability to do something does not negate the king's right to demand certain lawful actions. For example, a king has the right to tax his subjects in his kingdom.

Yes, a King has the right but just because he has the right does not make his commands just. There is a clear and present need for distinction here. A king has the right to commman any of his subjects to give to him their wives for an evening. It is his right as King to demand of his subjects whatsoever he wishes. His decree is law and thus if he commands it, it becomes law and therefore legal. And yet this does not make his command or decree a just one.

Justice is demaned of those in authority by God Himself, since He is the very standard and example they are to follow, and He will make sure that those who do not act in a just manner will indeed be punished in great measure.

 

[blackbird]

Ummmmmmm

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Blackbird
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