Full-Preterism/Hyper-Preterism: A Damnable Heresy

[Lukasaurus]

Don't the JW's teach that Jesus has already returned to earth?

I don't understand preterism at all.. it makes little sense. It sounds like the heresy that Paul was addressing in Thessalonica to me.

 

[Amy.G]

It sounds like the heresy that Paul was addressing in Thessalonica to me.

Yes, it does.

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper,

Why not give us a definition of the resurrection of the dead?

Since resurrection of the dead is the most difficult hurdle to accepting the full-preterist view it requires much study. I'm not qualified since I;m still fighting my way through this topic. I'll point you to those who I find most helpful.

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=124&Itemid=61

If you like listening to sermons this man is most helpful. I found he is on a similar journey as me. Sermons from his "Last Days Series #13-14. I would recommend, when time allows, to start with #1 and listen to the entire series for a systematic journey to the FP view:

http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

For the most schollarly writings this is the best:

http://www.thereignofchrist.com/ind...ction-of-the-dead&catid=38:articles&Itemid=48

http://www.thereignofchrist.com/ind...&id=67:i-corinthians&Itemid=87&layout=default

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Not sure what it proves, but you started the thread and have yet to offer any substance. Why start a thread like this if you are then unwilling to engage in it? Ed, though I disagree with him on this topic, will at least use scripture to support his beliefs and defend his positions. I get frustrated at those who start or jump into a thread and offer nothing in defense of their view. Your reply demonstrates my point.:laugh:

I have posted enough to show it is heresy. Would you like to me to post a bunch of links like you do? :laugh:

 

[Grasshopper]

I did some reading on Preterism and what I found was that this belief states that all prophecies (or most) have already been fulfilled.

Go back and read the writings of your Baptist forefathers, many of them also believed many of the prophecies dispies say are future were in fact past events.

The rapture has taken place, the judgment has taken place and Satan has been crushed. I obviously missed the judgment because I can't recall facing Christ. I think that is something I would probably remember.

Perhaps you don't remember because you have not died yet.

Heb 9:26 (for then He must have suffered often since the foundation of the world), but now once in the end of the world He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,

So my question is, what is next? If everything has been fulfilled, what is this age that we're living in now?

Go about growing the Kingdom. Don't wait around with your head in the clouds waiting to be rescued from this world, make a difference. Don't do as J Vernon Magee is quoted as saying, " why polish the brass on a sinking ship".

Maybe to my own embarrassment, I hadn't heard of this belief until recently. It never occurred to me that Jesus had already returned.

Do not be embarrassed, I had never heard of preterism in any form until a few years ago. It wasn't until I heard a sermon series by one of my favorite Baptist preachers did I know these views existed. After reading DeMar's book on which the series was based, I quickly moved into the preterist position as it made perfect sense. Full-preterism is more difficult, yet when you take the time to actually learn the system you can see how they arrive at their conclusions. Trust me, I would have said the same thing about the system as many on here do just a few short years ago.

 

[Grasshopper]

I have posted enough to show it is heresy. Would you like to me to post a bunch of links like you do? :laugh:

Sure, if you then are willing to defend them and answer questions after I read your links.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Why is everything so funny???

 

[Grasshopper]

ReformedBaptist I notice you quote Manton and Spurgeon in your signature. Perhaps you should read their eschatological views and not just their soteriology. Perhpas they are heretics as well:

Manton:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/manton-thomas.html

(OnJames 5:8)
"Either, first, to them by a particular judgment; for there were but a few years, and then all was lost; and probably that may be it which the apostles mean when they speak so often of the nearness of Christ's coming. But you will say, How could this be propounded as an argument of patience to the godly Hebrews that Christ would come and destroy the temple and city? I answer, (1) The time of Christ's solemn judiciary process against the Jews was the time when He did acquit Himself with honour upon His adversaries, and the scandal and reproach of His death rolled away. (2) The approach of His general judgment ended the persecution; and when the godly were provided for at Pella, the unbelievers perished by the Roman sword."
(On James 5:9)
"He had said before, 'The coming of the Lord draweth nigh;' now he addeth that 'he is at the door,' a phrase that doth not only imply the sureness, but the suddenness, of judgment. See Matthew 24:33: 'Know that it is near, even at the door;' so that this phrase intendeth also the speediness of the Jewish ruin."
(On Creedolatry)
"The Scripture is a sufficient rule of Christian Faith, or a record of all necessary Christian doctrines, without any supplement of unwritten traditions, as containing any necessary matter of faith, and is thus far sufficient for the decision of all controversies." ("The Scripture Sufficient Without Unwritten Traditions")

Spurgeon


http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/spurgeon_c-h.html
(On the book, The Parousia)
"The second coming of Christ according to this volume had its fulfilment in the destruction of Jerusalem and the establishment of the gospel dispensation... Amidst the many comings of Christ spoken of in the New Testament that which is spoken of as a second, must, we think, be personal, and thus similar to the first; and such too must be the meaning of 'his appearing.' Though the author's theory is carried too far, it has so much of truth in it, and throws so much new light upon obscure portions of the Scriptures, and is accompanied with so much critical research and close reasoning, that it can be injurious to none and may be profitable to all." [Reprinted from the October 1878 issue of The Sword and the Trowel Magazine]

 

[ReformedBaptist]

ReformedBaptist I notice you quote Manton and Spurgeon in your signature. Perhaps you should read their eschatological views and not just their soteriology. Perhpas they are heretics as well:

Manton:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/m/manton-thomas.html

(OnJames 5:8)
"Either, first, to them by a particular judgment; for there were but a few years, and then all was lost; and probably that may be it which the apostles mean when they speak so often of the nearness of Christ's coming. But you will say, How could this be propounded as an argument of patience to the godly Hebrews that Christ would come and destroy the temple and city? I answer, (1) The time of Christ's solemn judiciary process against the Jews was the time when He did acquit Himself with honour upon His adversaries, and the scandal and reproach of His death rolled away. (2) The approach of His general judgment ended the persecution; and when the godly were provided for at Pella, the unbelievers perished by the Roman sword."
(On James 5:9)
"He had said before, 'The coming of the Lord draweth nigh;' now he addeth that 'he is at the door,' a phrase that doth not only imply the sureness, but the suddenness, of judgment. See Matthew 24:33: 'Know that it is near, even at the door;' so that this phrase intendeth also the speediness of the Jewish ruin."
(On Creedolatry)
"The Scripture is a sufficient rule of Christian Faith, or a record of all necessary Christian doctrines, without any supplement of unwritten traditions, as containing any necessary matter of faith, and is thus far sufficient for the decision of all controversies." ("The Scripture Sufficient Without Unwritten Traditions")

Spurgeon


http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/spurgeon_c-h.html
(On the book, The Parousia)
"The second coming of Christ according to this volume had its fulfilment in the destruction of Jerusalem and the establishment of the gospel dispensation... Amidst the many comings of Christ spoken of in the New Testament that which is spoken of as a second, must, we think, be personal, and thus similar to the first; and such too must be the meaning of 'his appearing.' Though the author's theory is carried too far, it has so much of truth in it, and throws so much new light upon obscure portions of the Scriptures, and is accompanied with so much critical research and close reasoning, that it can be injurious to none and may be profitable to all." [Reprinted from the October 1878 issue of The Sword and the Trowel Magazine]

Perhaps you should stop calling the reformers to yoru side. If they were alive today they would rebuke you and your hyper-preterism. And that includes Gill.

RB

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Sure, if you then are willing to defend them and answer questions after I read your links.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Why is everything so funny???

Everything is so funny because your too serious. :laugh:

 

[Grasshopper]

Perhaps you should stop calling the reformers to yoru side. If they were alive today they would rebuke you and your hyper-preterism. And that includes Gill.

RB

Well it is quite obvious you cannot deal with these issues from scripture so I will leave you to your creeds to study. But remember the words of Manton:

"The Scripture is a sufficient rule of Christian Faith, or a record of all necessary Christian doctrines, without any supplement of unwritten traditions, as containing any necessary matter of faith, and is thus far sufficient for the decision of all controversies." ("The Scripture Sufficient Without Unwritten Traditions")

 

[Amy.G]

Grasshopper, I would really like to understand the preterist view better. How can the judgment have already happened when there are so many who have not been judged yet?

And what happens next? The new heaven and earth? I find this very confusing.

Maybe you could list the events for me?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/spurgeon_c-h.html
(On the book, The Parousia)
"The second coming of Christ according to this volume had its fulfilment in the destruction of Jerusalem and the establishment of the gospel dispensation... Amidst the many comings of Christ spoken of in the New Testament that which is spoken of as a second, must, we think, be personal, and thus similar to the first; and such too must be the meaning of 'his appearing.' Though the author's theory is carried too far, it has so much of truth in it, and throws so much new light upon obscure portions of the Scriptures, and is accompanied with so much critical research and close reasoning, that it can be injurious to none and may be profitable to all." [Reprinted from the October 1878 issue of The Sword and the Trowel Magazine]

Having in my possession a copy of the October 1878 issue of The Sword and the Trowel, reprinted by Pilgrim Publications, I looked for the above quote. I wanted to read it in its context. I could not find the quote in the October section or any month of the year 1878. There are usually sections where books are discussed and commented upon called "Notice of Books". I cannot find one reference to "The Parousia" in any month of 1878.

Perhaps you can find a more accurate reference to the quote? I just fixed the Wikipedia article, so that won't work. lol http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Stuart_Russell#Charles_Spurgeon

RB

 

[Amy.G]

According to information that I could find, the apostle John died in approximately 100 AD. If the rapture took place in 70 AD, why did John get left behind?

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper, I would really like to understand the preterist view better. How can the judgment have already happened when there are so many who have not been judged yet?

And what happens next? The new heaven and earth? I find this very confusing.

Maybe you could list the events for me?

Preterists make up two groups, partial and full. PP's would say most if not all of Matthew 24 was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and that much of Revelation spaeks also of that event. But they do believe in a future Coming of Christ, bodily resurrection and Judgment. This view was a very easy one to come to once I was exposed to it and began studying.

FP believe pretty much all those events were fulfilled in AD70. Although each individual's judgmet occurs upon death and resurrection is not physical in nature (This is the sole reason RC Sproul rejects FP).

Here are some short essays that I hope will give you an introduction to the full preterist view:


http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/An%20Introduction%20to%20Preterism.htm


http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/What%20Is%20The%20Preterist%20View.htm

http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/An%20Introduction%20To%20The%20Preterist%20View%20Of%20Eschatology.htm

If the FP view is too much then I would recommend reading Gary DeMar's book "Last Days Madness"

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354

Here are a couple of chapters you can read on-line:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/demarpassing.html

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/demarantichrist.html


Or RC Sproul's book the "The Last Days According to Jesus" is another excellent book.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/080106340X/?tag=baptis04-20

If you don't have e-sword: http://www.e-sword.net/
get it. Download all the commentaries and read what they believed concerning many of these issues. It is amazing how far the modern church as veered off the eschatological path in the last 200 years.

Hope this helps and approach it all with an open mind and an open Bible.

PS, concerning your last post, there are some who believe a rapture occured in AD70 but that is a minority view. Most FP do not believe that.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Preterists make up two groups, partial and full. PP's would say most if not all of Matthew 24 was speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and that much of Revelation spaeks also of that event. But they do believe in a future Coming of Christ, bodily resurrection and Judgment. This view was a very easy one to come to once I was exposed to it and began studying.

FP believe pretty much all those events were fulfilled in AD70. Although each individual's judgmet occurs upon death and resurrection is not physical in nature (This is the sole reason RC Sproul rejects FP).

Here are some short essays that I hope will give you an introduction to the full preterist view:


http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/An%20Introduction%20to%20Preterism.htm


http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/What%20Is%20The%20Preterist%20View.htm

http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/An%20Introduction%20To%20The%20Preterist%20View%20Of%20Eschatology.htm

If the FP view is too much then I would recommend reading Gary DeMar's book "Last Days Madness"

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Days-Madness-Obsession-Modern/dp/0915815354

Here are a couple of chapters you can read on-line:

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/demarpassing.html

http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/demarantichrist.html


Or RC Sproul's book the "The Last Days According to Jesus" is another excellent book.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/080106340X/?tag=baptis04-20

If you don't have e-sword: http://www.e-sword.net/
get it. Download all the commentaries and read what they believed concerning many of these issues. It is amazing how far the modern church as veered off the eschatological path in the last 200 years.

Hope this helps and approach it all with an open mind and an open Bible.

PS, concerning your last post, there are some who believe a rapture occured in AD70 but that is a minority view. Most FP do not believe that.

Any word yet on the authenticity of that Spurgeon quote?

RB

 

[Amy.G]

Thanks Grasshopper. I think it's important to look at all views. I think the OP may be a little over the top. So far I haven't seen anything "damnable" about preterism. Looking at all the different views on eschatology, how can I know who has the right view? It is certainly not clear cut.
But I will say this. After reading Matthew 24 for the billion'th time ( :laugh: ), it seems to me that Jesus is speaking of more than one event. Certainly the fall of Jerusalem is one them, but He is obviously also speaking of later end time events that have not taken place. The disciples asked Him 3 questions.
1) When will the temple be destroyed?
2) What will be the sign of His coming?
3) What will be the sign of the end of the age?

So, I think in this chapter Jesus is answering all 3 questions, which involve different events at different times.

In my opinion (so far) :laugh:

Edit: Also, I think we can lay to rest the rapture occurring in 70 AD. That cannot be correct. John was still here for many years after that.

 

[Grasshopper]

Any word yet on the authenticity of that Spurgeon quote?

RB

What are you some kind of Troll? Is this all you care about? Two threads on prophecy and all you care concerned with is the source for a quote?

Here are my questions you have been unable to answer, answer these then I will answer yours, until then back under the bridge you go:

But you failed to mention if you agree with their views on the Olivet Discourse which was the purpose of the post.

What do you find Here that is profane, vain babblings and taught by an unstable and untaught man:
http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/

Did Gill and Barnes and Clarke err in their interpretation of Matt. 24? If so how?

What error? Gill says the events of AD70 were a "coming of the son of man" was he right? You never answered the question.

Owen says 2 Peter speaks of the end of the Mosaic economy not the end of the world. Do you agree?

Spurgeon says the Tribulation was in the events of AD70, do you agree?

Dispies say all those events occur at the time of Christ's return. Do you agree?

Know of anyone's whose faith has been destroyed?

Was Gill wrong in placing a "coming of the son of man" in the events of AD70?

Why start a thread like this if you are then unwilling to engage in it?

 

[Grasshopper]

Thanks Grasshopper. I think it's important to look at all views. I think the OP may be a little over the top. So far I haven't seen anything "damnable" about preterism. Looking at all the different views on eschatology, how can I know who has the right view? It is certainly not clear cut.
But I will say this. After reading Matthew 24 for the billion'th time ( :laugh: ), it seems to me that Jesus is speaking of more than one event. Certainly the fall of Jerusalem is one them, but He is obviously also speaking of later end time events that have not taken place. The disciples asked Him 3 questions.
1) When will the temple be destroyed?
2) What will be the sign of His coming?
3) What will be the sign of the end of the age?

So, I think in this chapter Jesus is answering all 3 questions, which involve different events at different times.

In my opinion (so far) :laugh:

Edit: Also, I think we can lay to rest the rapture occurring in 70 AD. That cannot be correct. John was still here for many years after that.

I agree about John.

This might help on the Olivet Discourse:

http://www.tektonics.org/esch/olivet01.html

He is a partial-pret and very anti-FP.

Good luck.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

What are you some kind of Troll? Is this all you care about? Two threads on prophecy and all you care concerned with is the source for a quote?

May the Lord have mercy on you. I will no longer be communicating with you.

raying:

 

[Amy.G]

May the Lord have mercy on you. I will no longer be communicating with you.

raying:

Oh good grief, RB. This is debate. Stick around. We might all learn something.