FUN question regarding God's Sovereignty - for all

[Allan]

Ok, I thought I would throw a fun monkey wrench into the ongoing debates for some fun theological twist-and-turns that neither side have ever answered (to my knowledge).

So here is the first one:

We agree that God is sovereign (if not please find another thread)
We also agree that God is all powerful (if not please find another thread)
We agree that God can force or bend any creature to His will if He so chooses (same in above parenthesis)

So here is the question.
Knowing the above - what is the purpose for 'waring angels' (for lack of a better phrase)?

What I mean by 'waring' are the armies of God.
He is called the "Lord of Hosts"... Host is a term referring to an army.
We find Joshua, just before he takes Jericho, he meets a captain of the Host (army) of the Lord.

We also note other aspects much the same, where by when Daniel was praying for an answer - we note an angel 'fought' with the prince of Persia for 20 days before Michael (one of the chief princes) came and did battle with him, so the angel could take the message of God to Daniel.

We also see in the book of The Revelation that there was 'war' in heaven and also note that Michael also chains Satan and castes him into the bottomless pit.

NOW - If God is all powerful, able to bend His creatures to His will, and Sovereign... Why the need to have angels that do battle and war for Him?

Of course this is purely speculation and postulation since scripture never actually addresses the subject.. but it is one that seems to an interesting issue seldom ever spoken to


OK ALL... enjoy

 

[InTheLight]

Like it!

For that matter why did God make coats of skin for Adam and Eve and not delegate that job to an angel?

Why did God need an angel to guard the entrance to Eden so A&E couldn't eat from the Tree of Life?

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Allan---I’ve worked on biblical angelology & demonology for several years--& have always wondered why an All-powerful, omnipresent God would need some special spiritual creature to do anything for him—considering He himself could obviously do a better, more efficient job at any task He assigned them! But one thing is for sure, despite what liberal theologians or those who endorse the archaic demythologization approach say, angels are real spiritual beings & God does assign them special tasks (as Scripture confirms). In all reality, the same question could be asked about the creation of humans---why would God create us----considering He had all He truly needed in Himself! While trying to not be over simplistic---I personally think the answer to both these questions lies in the age old response----for His own glory! I want to say more—but I’m interested in seeing some other responses to this thread---good topic—God Bless!

 

[Van]

It is one thing for God to be able to do something, and another thing for God to choose to use that ability. God does as He pleases, and if it suits His purpose to not control everything, to not predestine everything, in order to allow some of His creatures autonomous choices, because when they choose to trust in Him, that brings Him glory, then in His complete sovereignty, He can do it.

Now the second part of the puzzle is why does not God just wipe out those who choose to rebel against God? Why does He manifest the attribute of longsuffering in order to make know the riches of His glory?

Here we must look at two kinds of creatures, first, those who chose to rebel, and God predestined them to Gehenna, such as Satan and his co-horts. Although they mean their actions for evil, God is using their actions for good, in that when people turn away from the snares of the Devil and embrace Christ, they bring glory to God.

The second type, are people who hear the gospel and either reject in full or in part. These God tolerates, again demonstrating His longsuffering attribute, not wanting any to perish. He sends out workers, to cultivate, to plant and to water, such that some might come to their senses, and return to their Father who loves them.

God uses the rebelling angels for good, creating living parables in His Word, for us to understand were are in a war against "powers" and we need the full armor of God.

God Bless

 

[webdog]

Cool subject!

I see is at pleasing God to do so. For instance, my son is playing T-Ball this weekend. Technically I can play T-Ball better then he can and would be a better player on his team (no smart comments inserted here ) but it brings me joy to watch him play it instead.

 

[Van]

Hi webdog, great post, true on so many levels!

 

[Skandelon]

Cool subject!

I see is at pleasing God to do so. For instance, my son is playing T-Ball this weekend. Technically I can play T-Ball better then he can and would be a better player on his team (no smart comments inserted here ) but it brings me joy to watch him play it instead.

But you have to admit deep down you want to vicariously play through him and dominate those kids at T-ball, don't you?

So, maybe the deterministic Calvinists are right and God just wants to vicariously live through EVERY ONE! You would think his becoming a man would fulfill that desire, but maybe he would rather do it through every person? :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

What is a kingdom without subjects?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

God is glorified in the destruction of evil and his people are edified in the knowledge of his destruction of it.

 

[Allan]

First, please stop trying to bring in the C/A stuff that proliferates all the other threads.

Now the question still remains as it was not really spoken to.

Vague generalities about the subject is not the point of the thread.
I posted it to speculate on and consider it.

So far, we have seem much of an answer.

God being all powerful and able to - IF HE CHOOSE - bend all creation to His will, then why does He have angels that fight on His behalf?
Why does He not do so Himself?

Why was there even a 'war' in Heaven?

 

[Allan]

It is one thing for God to be able to do something, and another thing for God to choose to use that ability. God does as He pleases, and if it suits His purpose to not control everything, to not predestine everything, in order to allow some of His creatures autonomous choices, because when they choose to trust in Him, that brings Him glory, then in His complete sovereignty, He can do it.

Now the second part of the puzzle is why does not God just wipe out those who choose to rebel against God? Why does He manifest the attribute of longsuffering in order to make know the riches of His glory?

Here we must look at two kinds of creatures, first, those who chose to rebel, and God predestined them to Gehenna, such as Satan and his co-horts. Although they mean their actions for evil, God is using their actions for good, in that when people turn away from the snares of the Devil and embrace Christ, they bring glory to God.

The second type, are people who hear the gospel and either reject in full or in part. These God tolerates, again demonstrating His longsuffering attribute, not wanting any to perish. He sends out workers, to cultivate, to plant and to water, such that some might come to their senses, and return to their Father who loves them.

God uses the rebelling angels for good, creating living parables in His Word, for us to understand were are in a war against "powers" and we need the full armor of God.

God Bless

Most of this doesn't actually deal with the question I asked.

However your last part does still stay within the framework of the question.

If God is All Powerful, and able to - IF HE CHOSE - to bend all creation and creatures to His will.. what is the need for the armor, why was there a war, why do angels even need to engage the demonic?

Again - this is NOT denying God is all powerful, it is just posing an interesting question that scripture does not actually deal with. It is just postulating and having some fun

 

[Skandelon]

First, please stop trying to bring in the C/A stuff that proliferates all the other threads.

You think you can ask a question about God's sovereignty, omnipotence, ability to bend a creature's will and how that relates to His use of waring armies; and the "C/A stuff" (which typically centers around such questions) won't be brought in...even in jest? Surely, you are continuing the "fun" part of the thread with such an expectation? :smilewinkgrin:

God being all powerful and able to - IF HE CHOOSE - bend all creation to His will, then why does He have angels that fight on His behalf?

Why does He not do so Himself?

Why was there even a 'war' in Heaven?

Let's address you statement in the OP: "We agree that God can force or bend any creature to His will if He so chooses."

We do agree, BUT, it appears to me that God ALWAYS does this through "natural" or "outward" means. Let me explain:

Jonah did want to preach to Nineveh. God used a storm and big fish to change his mind, right? Couldn't God have just bent his will to want to go to Nineveh through some supernatural inward working? Same with Paul...God uses a blinding light. Same with Thomas, God reveals himself and shows him the scars.

When it comes to changing man's will God uses things like signs and wonders (Matt. 11:21), or envy (Rm 11:14), or the gospel (Rom 1:16). And he chooses us, his created beings, to bring the gospel to the world. So, while God has the ability to supernaturally bend the will of any creature, he clearly chooses to do this through normal outward or "natural" means and He allows other creatures to partake in that process.

Likewise, he clearly chooses to allow his creatures to fight on his behalf and accomplish His purpose through the chosen means of a battle.

That's my take on it. Sorry if it was too C/A for you or not "fun" enough.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allan, This figures into the mix
[QUOTE 9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. ][/QUOTE]

Angels who fell have no redemption, Elect angels need no redemption.
Yet they learn of God's love in redemption of His people..

they stoop down to look into these things.
to which things messengers do desire to bend looking.

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Until the white throne judgement, the fallen angels do not seem to like this plan.....

Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

this is like dan 10.....prince of persia withstood me

 

[Allan]

You think you can ask a question about God's sovereignty, omnipotence, ability to bend a creature's will and how that relates to His use of waring armies; and the "C/A stuff" (which typically centers around such questions) won't be brought in...even in jest? Surely, you are continuing the "fun" part of the thread with such an expectation? :smilewinkgrin:

Yes actually. Especially since both sides agree on truth of those immutable truths though not necessarily who they function.

The question is regarding why have them at all when He is God able to do all things. Neither Satan nor demons can do any more or less than He expressly allows. Man can go no farther, nor know any more, than God allows. He can wipe out all of existence if He so chooses.. so why have angels that fight on his behalf?

Let's address you statement in the OP: "We agree that God can force or bend any creature to His will if He so chooses."

We do agree, BUT, it appears to me that God ALWAYS does this through "natural" or "outward" means. Let me explain:

Jonah did want to preach to Nineveh. God used a storm and big fish to change his mind, right? Couldn't God have just bent his will to want to go to Nineveh through some supernatural inward working? Same with Paul...God uses a blinding light. Same with Thomas, God reveals himself and shows him the scars.

He also speaks to the heart, like with Elijah and the still small voice and others.
Yet this is not what I am referring to. To me, you are going down a side trial that misses the discussion. While I agree that God uses both internal and external means this does not address the question..
Why does God have an army of angels?
Why does He need them?
Why must Michael bind up Satan and cast Him into the bottomless pit?

Likewise, he clearly chooses to allow his creatures to fight on his behalf and accomplish His purpose through the chosen means of a battle.

So why did God choose to have them "Fight on His behalf"?
To state it fulfills or accomplishes His purpose is to vague and seems to ignore the question by giving a relative non-answer. Then again, there is not real answer to this but your is a bit to vague to me

Yes, we can choose to this or that but 'that' really doesn't address the question posed. I know that God wants it this way, and for the purpose of bringing about his plan.. again, no question.. but why does God not do this Himself?

Why use these at all when a single thought or word can crush His enemies - like His judgment against Sodom, or King Nebby being swapped out for an ox.

Why was there allowed to be war in heaven?
Why did Michael cast Satan down instead of God?
Why did the angel sent to Daniel have to battle for 20 days, then go back to fight some more?

 

[Allan]

Allan, This figures into the mix

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. ]

Angels who fell have no redemption, Elect angels need no redemption.
Yet they learn of God's love in redemption of His people..

they stoop down to look into these things.
to which things messengers do desire to bend looking.

Until the white throne judgement, the fallen angels do not seem to like this plan.....

this is like dan 10.....prince of persia withstood me

I don't disagree with anything you set forth

The question is, if God is All powerful, and Sovereign, ect.. why are there waring angels or angels that must do battle?

Why was there a war in heaven? Why did God not cast them out Himself?


Therefore another part of my point is.. does God ONLY work vicariously through others? If so why? Is He not capable to work, move, or act personally? If He is, and all that He does is done absolutely (because He does it - if you want something done right do it yourself) why use others. This question goes BACK to the question of God having angels that battle and war for Him. Let us stick with this question first.

What is the point?

 

[Iconoclast]

Therefore another part of my point is.. does God ONLY work vicariously through others? If so why?

He ordains the ways and the means...like preaching by men...
philip and the eunuch....

Satan used the sabeans to attack Job.....


And sometimes he acts directly...

6And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.

7But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.

In His secret wisdom deut29 He must be instructing not only men, but angels

 

[Skandelon]

To me, you are going down a side trial that misses the discussion. While I agree that God uses both internal and external means this does not address the question..
Why does God have an army of angels?
Why does He need them?
Why must Michael bind up Satan and cast Him into the bottomless pit?

I'm sorry, I thought I was being clear in my correlation between why God would choose Jonah to preach to Nineveh in relation to why God would choose an army of angles to fight his battle...

God could have told Nineveh Himself. Clearly he didn't NEED Jonah. Just like he doesn't need the angles. We both agree that God CHOSE to use Jonah and the angels. But why? I presented my speculations on that matter in the other similar thread, so I'll leave it at that...

:sleeping_2:

 

[convicted1]

Ok, I thought I would throw a fun monkey wrench into the ongoing debates for some fun theological twist-and-turns that neither side have ever answered (to my knowledge).

So here is the first one:

We agree that God is sovereign (if not please find another thread)
We also agree that God is all powerful (if not please find another thread)
We agree that God can force or bend any creature to His will if He so chooses (same in above parenthesis)

I would agree with all of these'uns right here!!!

So here is the question.
Knowing the above - what is the purpose for 'waring angels' (for lack of a better phrase)?

What I mean by 'waring' are the armies of God.
He is called the "Lord of Hosts"... Host is a term referring to an army.
We find Joshua, just before he takes Jericho, he meets a captain of the Host (army) of the Lord.

I *think* the reason why God does things the way He does is this; when we fail at what we attempt to do, we then turn to Him and ask Him to help us do it....IOW, He causes us to see how helpless we are at times.

We also note other aspects much the same, where by when Daniel was praying for an answer - we note an angel 'fought' with the prince of Persia for 20 days before Michael (one of the chief princes) came and did battle with him, so the angel could take the message of God to Daniel.

I think Jacob's ladder would be a helpful hint here, Bro. Allan. He saw a ladder reach all the way to heaven, and angel's ascending and descending it. I think that they may take our prayers to Him when we ask in faith believing(I could be wrong on this, so if I am, please show me where I am wrong...I heard someone preach on this once, and it sure sounded good!!). Also, I believe we do have angels that watch over us, and when Satan comes against us, they assist us in our walk with life....does this sound orthodox, to you, Bro. Allan??

We also see in the book of The Revelation that there was 'war' in heaven and also note that Michael also chains Satan and castes him into the bottomless pit.

NOW - If God is all powerful, able to bend His creatures to His will, and Sovereign... Why the need to have angels that do battle and war for Him?

Of course this is purely speculation and postulation since scripture never actually addresses the subject.. but it is one that seems to an interesting issue seldom ever spoken to


OK ALL... enjoy

I believe that the angels are there to assist us, and also protect us at times. Does anyone else feel this way?? I am stating this off the top of my head, and after more study, may change my mind....so don't jump me if you feel that I am wrong.....I am not stating I am right, but thats the way I tend to see it......for now.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Calv1]

Ok, I thought I would throw a fun monkey wrench into the ongoing debates for some fun theological twist-and-turns that neither side have ever answered (to my knowledge).

So here is the first one:

We agree that God is sovereign (if not please find another thread)
We also agree that God is all powerful (if not please find another thread)
We agree that God can force or bend any creature to His will if He so chooses (same in above parenthesis)

So here is the question.
Knowing the above - what is the purpose for 'waring angels' (for lack of a better phrase)?

What I mean by 'waring' are the armies of God.
He is called the "Lord of Hosts"... Host is a term referring to an army.
We find Joshua, just before he takes Jericho, he meets a captain of the Host (army) of the Lord.

We also note other aspects much the same, where by when Daniel was praying for an answer - we note an angel 'fought' with the prince of Persia for 20 days before Michael (one of the chief princes) came and did battle with him, so the angel could take the message of God to Daniel.

We also see in the book of The Revelation that there was 'war' in heaven and also note that Michael also chains Satan and castes him into the bottomless pit.

NOW - If God is all powerful, able to bend His creatures to His will, and Sovereign... Why the need to have angels that do battle and war for Him?

Of course this is purely speculation and postulation since scripture never actually addresses the subject.. but it is one that seems to an interesting issue seldom ever spoken to


OK ALL... enjoy

Cool question! I would say the same reason God uses man to proclaim the gospel. We could ask "Why doesn't God just write in the sky, here I Am"?

He does it for His glory and the angels joy.

I hint also may be found in that we see scripture say "The Lord spoke to Moses", then the phrase is altered to say "The Angel of the Lord spoke to Moses".

God's glorious grace brings men and angels to do His work, what a honor!