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Fundamental?
- Thread starter Precepts
- Start date
Good can of worms, here. I will probably sit this one out, only after saying this:
A person can have all the theology right and all the words & phrases right, a person can read all the Bible scholars and know all the right verses...
but if a person hasn't MET Jesus--if a person isn't in a daily love relationship with Jesus, that person is just as lost as someone who doesn't know the "fundamentals of the faith."
Even Satan knows all the fundamentals of the faith.
A person can have all the theology right and all the words & phrases right, a person can read all the Bible scholars and know all the right verses...
but if a person hasn't MET Jesus--if a person isn't in a daily love relationship with Jesus, that person is just as lost as someone who doesn't know the "fundamentals of the faith."
Even Satan knows all the fundamentals of the faith.
Historic fundamentalism (definition I choose for identification) is purely theological AND "spirit".
Stand for THE fundamentals
Bible (orig documents, NOT the KJV) is inspired
Jesus virgin birth, sinless life, vicarious atonement, bodily resurrection, second coming
and
Defend THE fundamentals
Against error and apostasy
Not JUST believing them, but militantly "contending for the faith once delivered to the saints".
Non-baptists may be fundamentalists in the historic sense. I fellowship with all.
Only a small percentage of all fundamentalists will be willing to "contend". I am CO-LABORERS with these!
Stand for THE fundamentals
Bible (orig documents, NOT the KJV) is inspired
Jesus virgin birth, sinless life, vicarious atonement, bodily resurrection, second coming
and
Defend THE fundamentals
Against error and apostasy
Not JUST believing them, but militantly "contending for the faith once delivered to the saints".
Non-baptists may be fundamentalists in the historic sense. I fellowship with all.
Only a small percentage of all fundamentalists will be willing to "contend". I am CO-LABORERS with these!
Here are some things that made me want to leave my Fundamental Church.
I am not allowed to wear my earring.
I get dirty looks when I wear jeans to an evening service.
I can only sing in the chior if I wear a suit. (Actually, I would wear a sport-coat, tie & nice pants, but it still wasn't good enough)
I am constantly reminded how bluegrass gospel music is inspired by African pagans, therefore CANNOT be pleasing to God.
I get told there is no way I could trust God, and not be KJVO.
I get told that it is a sin to enjoy a beer.
I wish my fundy church would stick to the fundamentals.
I am not allowed to wear my earring.
I get dirty looks when I wear jeans to an evening service.
I can only sing in the chior if I wear a suit. (Actually, I would wear a sport-coat, tie & nice pants, but it still wasn't good enough)
I am constantly reminded how bluegrass gospel music is inspired by African pagans, therefore CANNOT be pleasing to God.
I get told there is no way I could trust God, and not be KJVO.
I get told that it is a sin to enjoy a beer.
I wish my fundy church would stick to the fundamentals.
Greg Linscott
<img src =/7963.jpg>
Amen, Dr. Bob.
It is sad that Fundamentalism is equated with having standards of personal conduct. I think that sometimes our historical distaste for or distrust of higher education has led to some unblanced perspectives. Fundamentalism is about believing and defending the truth of the Word of God. With the application of that truth in our personal lives, we are compelled to live differently from the world. It is difficult for many Fundamental pastors and churches, apparently, to distinguish between the two.
Regarding your earring and such, Bro. Curtis, I believe you are entitled to do what you wish. However, if you were a member in my church, I would be more concerned with what motivated you to wear the earring. Our appearance does communicate a message, and identifies us or defines us in ways that our words cannot (or do not, because we do not get the chance). I would challenge you to consider WHY you wear the earring- WHAT are you intending to communicate with it? Individuality? "Shock value?" Rebellion against the norm? What purpose does it serve?
While your IFB church (and many others like it) most likely has issues with how they handle these "fringe" issues, don't we often let our own personal prides and preferences get in the way of true harmony and cooperation in the local church? Is it really that big a deal to wear jeans to evening service? No. (Personally, if its my church, I'm just glad to see you there in the evening!
) Would it make you drastically less comfortable to slip on a pair of Dockers out of love for your brothers and sisters in Christ who are truly bothered (right or wrong) by the jeans?
Believe me, I understand where you are coming from in many of these areas. I grew up in IFB churches, and attended IFB Christian schools for virtually all of my formative years. But what does Paul say? Love does not seek its own... it is not easily provoked. If we have love for our fellow church members, the brothers and sisters in Christ whom God has placed us with-- shouldn't we be willing to "take the high road" and make concessions in some of these "marginal" areas?
It is sad that Fundamentalism is equated with having standards of personal conduct. I think that sometimes our historical distaste for or distrust of higher education has led to some unblanced perspectives. Fundamentalism is about believing and defending the truth of the Word of God. With the application of that truth in our personal lives, we are compelled to live differently from the world. It is difficult for many Fundamental pastors and churches, apparently, to distinguish between the two.
Regarding your earring and such, Bro. Curtis, I believe you are entitled to do what you wish. However, if you were a member in my church, I would be more concerned with what motivated you to wear the earring. Our appearance does communicate a message, and identifies us or defines us in ways that our words cannot (or do not, because we do not get the chance). I would challenge you to consider WHY you wear the earring- WHAT are you intending to communicate with it? Individuality? "Shock value?" Rebellion against the norm? What purpose does it serve?
While your IFB church (and many others like it) most likely has issues with how they handle these "fringe" issues, don't we often let our own personal prides and preferences get in the way of true harmony and cooperation in the local church? Is it really that big a deal to wear jeans to evening service? No. (Personally, if its my church, I'm just glad to see you there in the evening!
Believe me, I understand where you are coming from in many of these areas. I grew up in IFB churches, and attended IFB Christian schools for virtually all of my formative years. But what does Paul say? Love does not seek its own... it is not easily provoked. If we have love for our fellow church members, the brothers and sisters in Christ whom God has placed us with-- shouldn't we be willing to "take the high road" and make concessions in some of these "marginal" areas?
I don't wear my earring, anymore. I did take it out when they asked.. But I would go to church right from work, or be late, so the jeans thing I didn't get. I always tried to look good on Sunday morning.
I understand how important it is for visitors to see the membership of the church take their example seriously. I supported the church in those areas. But when I heard that thing about bluegrass, then the KJVO stuff, I can't help but wonder, where will it end ?
I'm very close to leaving the church.
I understand how important it is for visitors to see the membership of the church take their example seriously. I supported the church in those areas. But when I heard that thing about bluegrass, then the KJVO stuff, I can't help but wonder, where will it end ?
I'm very close to leaving the church.
Greg Linscott
<img src =/7963.jpg>
Are these things (bluegrass, KJVO linked to trusting God) coming from the pulpit? In what context? Have you approached your pastor in a humble spirit to talk these things out? To what extent are people and the pastor going to force you into "their" definition of what a christian should be? Leaving a church is not something that should be done lightly- you have as much a responsibility to your fellow members as they to you.
That is why I'm struggling. Yes the message about bluegrass came from the pulpit. The rant about the KJV came from the head Sunday School teacher.
I know leaving a church is a huge deal. I'm actually 2600 miles away from it, right now, and don't know what's going to happen. I've been invited to a church out here, so perhaps I'll check it out. I want to attend, but I don't think I'm goint to join one, and commit to it.
I know leaving a church is a huge deal. I'm actually 2600 miles away from it, right now, and don't know what's going to happen. I've been invited to a church out here, so perhaps I'll check it out. I want to attend, but I don't think I'm goint to join one, and commit to it.
Forever settled in heaven
New Member
C.S. Murphy
New Member
Paul did say take a little wine for your stomach, but I seldom hear of anyone enjoying their medicine.
Murph
C.S. Murphy
New Member
You're still there.
Murph
I mean you no disrespect, but honestly, he should wear dockers instead of jeans for the love of his brothers and sisters in Christ...the very people who should accept him the way he is...Jesus certainly does. And how do you consider this marginal? It's marginal to sit up in a church and pretend to be who you aren't so that your brothers and sisters in Christ will love you more? Am I the only one who sees how ridiculous this is?Originally posted by Greg Linscott:
Is it really that big a deal to wear jeans to evening service? No. (Personally, if its my church, I'm just glad to see you there in the evening!) Would it make you drastically less comfortable to slip on a pair of Dockers out of love for your brothers and sisters in Christ who are truly bothered (right or wrong) by the jeans?
Believe me, I understand where you are coming from in many of these areas. I grew up in IFB churches, and attended IFB Christian schools for virtually all of my formative years. But what does Paul say? Love does not seek its own... it is not easily provoked. If we have love for our fellow church members, the brothers and sisters in Christ whom God has placed us with-- shouldn't we be willing to "take the high road" and make concessions in some of these "marginal" areas?
I've been thru the EXACT same thing as you Bro. Curtis and I did end up leaving the church. Of course, it wasn't easy and it was a very hard decision...I was bitter and angry and stayed out of church for over 2 years, only going now and then visiting various churches. I'm back in church and MUCH happier! The only acceptance I look for now is from God. Anyone else who doesn't like the way I dress or what translation of the Bible I prefer doesn't have to fellowship with me, period.
My advice to Bro. Curtis is to find another church...if these things are bothering you, it's not going to go away...it only gets worse. If thats wrong advice, then I'm giving wrong advice...
Kathy
<><
Greg Linscott
<img src =/7963.jpg>
Kathy,
No offense taken.
I find it interesting, however, that we often try to define "who we are" with something like, well, jeans. What's the big deal? Does it kill you to wear something slightly more "dressy?" Why do we find it less of an issue to dress professionally at work, or formally for a wedding or funeral?
Again, if you attend my church in jeans, it's truly no big deal. In our part of Maine, jeans are pretty standard, actually. I just find it interesting that we are so inflexible and uncooperative when it comes to making personal concessions like khakis vs. jeans. It's not a matter of them loving you more- it's a matter of you loving them more. 1 Peter 4 tells us that love covers a multitude of sins. It starts with you and me- are we willing to overlook the little petty issues and just love them for who they are, and not what they want us (not) to wear?
No offense taken.
I find it interesting, however, that we often try to define "who we are" with something like, well, jeans. What's the big deal? Does it kill you to wear something slightly more "dressy?" Why do we find it less of an issue to dress professionally at work, or formally for a wedding or funeral?
Again, if you attend my church in jeans, it's truly no big deal. In our part of Maine, jeans are pretty standard, actually. I just find it interesting that we are so inflexible and uncooperative when it comes to making personal concessions like khakis vs. jeans. It's not a matter of them loving you more- it's a matter of you loving them more. 1 Peter 4 tells us that love covers a multitude of sins. It starts with you and me- are we willing to overlook the little petty issues and just love them for who they are, and not what they want us (not) to wear?
colorado_cop
New Member
Goodday, everyone! My name is Jason, and I'm brand-spankin' new to this board. Have been lurking for quite some time, and just recently thought I'd join in on the discussion.
Concerning the dress issue, I had a pastor once who said it best. When asked by an older woman during a business meeting, "Pastor, how much makeup should a Christian woman wear?" His response to her was this: "Ma'am, in a world that's going to hell, I really don't have the desire nor the concern to worry about your Mabeline. My motto's always been, if you need it, dab it on!" Of course this was said in a joking manner, but he was serious.
I recently moved my family from a Fundie (and I said it that way not to condescend, but simply because I don't want to type it all the way out) So. Bapt. church here in Colorado Springs, partly because of the dress issue. I am 27, and when I turned 24 I was elected a deacon in the church. God has also gifted me with a very good singing voice. Anyway, if one was to participate in the worship services, the men had to wear coat and tie and the women long dresses with pantie hose. If I was to assist in the Lord's supper, I had to wear a full suit, not even slacks and sport jacket/tie. Realize, I had been raised Fundie and So. Bapt. my entire life in Lawton, OK. As I have aged, and especially once I became a deacon, I really began to realize that the things we as Christians, whether it be Bapt, Meth, Pent, or whatever, the things we continually concern ourselves with and attempt to project upon others truly have absolutely NO eternal consequence. As such, are they things we should worry about? Absolutely not. We now attend the Woodmen Valley Chapel here in Colorado Springs, which has an average weekend attendance of over 6,000 people. Last year alone, the church baptist over 350 people who came to know Christ through it's ministries. During services, the are people from every walk of life and economic status. Some wear suits, others wear jeans, still others dress in shorts and t-shirt during the summer. The pastor generally will wear slacks and a polo, because that's what he likes. Me, sometimes I will wear jeans, other times khakis, but hardly ever a suit. For me, I just feel like a stiff in a suit. And again, that's just me. I wore them for several years after college before going into law enforcement.
I saw another thread on here regarding a pastor who wears a Hawaiian shirt in the pulpit. Some of the responses had to do with the professionalism he should display behind the pulpit, how a suit demonstrates authoritativeness. Folks, the authority does not come from a man's dress, it comes from the Word of God. If the pastor is prayed up and right with God, he will have all power and authority under heaven and earth. There's a church here in COlorado Springs called Rocky Mountain Calvary Church. The pastor, Brian Michaels, wears a Hawaiian shirt every week. He also does not have a high school diploma, and has never been to seminary (something So. Bapt. hold SO rigidly important, for some reason. It's definitely not a Biblical reason, but more of a traditional thing, I supposed.) ANyway, He was called by God into the ministry at a young age, and now his church averages over 3,000 on a weekend, and is saving people and enhancing other's walk with Christ.
I don't know how many of you have ever lived in or been to COlorado Springs, but this town is very laid back in regards to formality and the such. ALl of the So. Bapt. churches, save for two, that years ago were powerful, are now fractions of their former selves because of their rigidity and refusal to comform to societal changes. Remember, if the changes that occur in society don't negate or go against scripture, then there's nothing wrong with them. Anyway, all of the growing and powerful churches are the ones that have done away with formality and fundamentalism and have made the "In a world going to hell, we don't have time worry about your _________________ (insert Christian law here), and because of it, those who were formerly unchurched or backslidden are now seeing they can be a part of a church where one's relationship with Christ is the important thing, not their comformity to a particular traditional, non-Blblical creed.
Just my two cents...
Concerning the dress issue, I had a pastor once who said it best. When asked by an older woman during a business meeting, "Pastor, how much makeup should a Christian woman wear?" His response to her was this: "Ma'am, in a world that's going to hell, I really don't have the desire nor the concern to worry about your Mabeline. My motto's always been, if you need it, dab it on!" Of course this was said in a joking manner, but he was serious.
I recently moved my family from a Fundie (and I said it that way not to condescend, but simply because I don't want to type it all the way out) So. Bapt. church here in Colorado Springs, partly because of the dress issue. I am 27, and when I turned 24 I was elected a deacon in the church. God has also gifted me with a very good singing voice. Anyway, if one was to participate in the worship services, the men had to wear coat and tie and the women long dresses with pantie hose. If I was to assist in the Lord's supper, I had to wear a full suit, not even slacks and sport jacket/tie. Realize, I had been raised Fundie and So. Bapt. my entire life in Lawton, OK. As I have aged, and especially once I became a deacon, I really began to realize that the things we as Christians, whether it be Bapt, Meth, Pent, or whatever, the things we continually concern ourselves with and attempt to project upon others truly have absolutely NO eternal consequence. As such, are they things we should worry about? Absolutely not. We now attend the Woodmen Valley Chapel here in Colorado Springs, which has an average weekend attendance of over 6,000 people. Last year alone, the church baptist over 350 people who came to know Christ through it's ministries. During services, the are people from every walk of life and economic status. Some wear suits, others wear jeans, still others dress in shorts and t-shirt during the summer. The pastor generally will wear slacks and a polo, because that's what he likes. Me, sometimes I will wear jeans, other times khakis, but hardly ever a suit. For me, I just feel like a stiff in a suit. And again, that's just me. I wore them for several years after college before going into law enforcement.
I saw another thread on here regarding a pastor who wears a Hawaiian shirt in the pulpit. Some of the responses had to do with the professionalism he should display behind the pulpit, how a suit demonstrates authoritativeness. Folks, the authority does not come from a man's dress, it comes from the Word of God. If the pastor is prayed up and right with God, he will have all power and authority under heaven and earth. There's a church here in COlorado Springs called Rocky Mountain Calvary Church. The pastor, Brian Michaels, wears a Hawaiian shirt every week. He also does not have a high school diploma, and has never been to seminary (something So. Bapt. hold SO rigidly important, for some reason. It's definitely not a Biblical reason, but more of a traditional thing, I supposed.) ANyway, He was called by God into the ministry at a young age, and now his church averages over 3,000 on a weekend, and is saving people and enhancing other's walk with Christ.
I don't know how many of you have ever lived in or been to COlorado Springs, but this town is very laid back in regards to formality and the such. ALl of the So. Bapt. churches, save for two, that years ago were powerful, are now fractions of their former selves because of their rigidity and refusal to comform to societal changes. Remember, if the changes that occur in society don't negate or go against scripture, then there's nothing wrong with them. Anyway, all of the growing and powerful churches are the ones that have done away with formality and fundamentalism and have made the "In a world going to hell, we don't have time worry about your _________________ (insert Christian law here), and because of it, those who were formerly unchurched or backslidden are now seeing they can be a part of a church where one's relationship with Christ is the important thing, not their comformity to a particular traditional, non-Blblical creed.
Just my two cents...
colorado_cop
New Member
Very nice today. Recently built a home, so am enjoying working on the yard today. Wife is at a ladies Bible study this morning, so have got the run of the mill this morning! Are you in Denver? Castle Rock? Good to meet ya, man!
Dear Bro. Linscott:
Re ur letter to Kathy. Portion that goes:
I just find it interesting that we are so inflexible and uncooperative when it comes to making personal concessions like khakis vs. jeans.
Perhaps it is because this is one of the few vestiges of American conservatism that the current time's humanists haven't broken ?
Just thinking.
Re ur letter to Kathy. Portion that goes:
I just find it interesting that we are so inflexible and uncooperative when it comes to making personal concessions like khakis vs. jeans.
Perhaps it is because this is one of the few vestiges of American conservatism that the current time's humanists haven't broken ?
Just thinking.