Fundamentalism and IFBeXtremism

[Ed Edwards]

Ron Arndt: //But believe it or not, this is what is believed
by many Christians who follow after the teachings of Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye.//

What you describe is NOT believed by Hal Lindsey nor Tim LeHaye
NOR by anybody on this BB (Baptist Board).

Ron Arndt: //The secret rapture group is a belief held by many Christians
that Christ will come for the church only, totally unknown to the world.
The world will be completely oblivious to what is transpiring.
The dead in Christ will be resurrected and the living Christians
will be caught up with the dead in Christ, while the world
will not know what is happening at this time.//

However, there is a group of Christians that believe this.
However, most of them don't use computers (TVs are the insturments
of the Devil and computers are just specialized TVs).

In fact, the term 'rapture' comes from the Latin Vulgate
for 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (HCSB):

Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with
them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will
always be with the Lord.

A form of the Latin 'raptos' (our 'rapture') is used in the
Latin Vulgate where we use 'caught up' in English.

Read the rest of 1 Thess 4:13-5:11: the voice of an Archangel,
the sound of a trumpet. Hey, the Rapture is LOUD ENOUGH TO PHYSICALLY
WAKE THE DEAD - ain't gonna be no secret to the rest of the world.



riginally posted by Ron Arndt:
-------------------------
... the secret rapture group, ...
-------------------------
Aundie: //I've never heard of that.. what is that?//

'That' is a strawman. Strawmen are made by those who can't argue
logically against something, so they invent something else that
nobody is arguing, something that they can discombobulate.
Nobody on the BB has posted in the 3½-years i've been here that
believes in 'the secret rapture'. So the argument is a strawman
argument, vainly wrestling the air, boxing with shadows, tilting
with windmills -- I guess it help keeps one in shape?

Interesting Brother IFB Mole, I got much the same message from
the Lord as what you got.
I got the same reaction from some people - shoot the messenger and
deny the message came from God.
But such has been the life of the prophets* of God from the earliest times.

* note: 'prophet' here means forth telling not foretelling.

Here is what I wrote earlier:
---------------------------------------
The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism:

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

The hyper-fundamentals of eXtremism:

1. Anti-Bible (KJBO = King James Bible Only)
2. Anti-education (AKA: pro-ignorance)
3. Anti-success
4. Anti-female
5. Anti-alien (Hate of gay-boys, racism, etc.)

Typical statements made by the hyper-fundamentalists:
(note that the world calls them "fundies"
and we real fundamentalists have to bear their
burden unjustly):

1. The KJB replaces the original language manuscripts as being God's word
2. Calling "seminary": "cemetery"
3. Jerry Falwell sold out to the Devil
4. mistreatment of women
5. Jews killed Christ
----------------------------------------
Of course, my definitions of 'The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism' don't get into
the Calvinistic, etc. debate - this makes
them much broader in scope.

 

[Bob Alkire]

Originally posted by Ron Arndt:
bapmom

The greatest dispensationalist of all was not Scofield but Clarence Larkin. Most of you are to young to know who he was. But he was and still is to me the BEST. His charts and books are a lifetime of work. His book "dispenstional truths" have never been countered as far as I'm concerned.

You are right, dispensational truth is almost unheard of now in Baptist churches and never in non denominational churches. Surprisingly, 30 years ago dispenstional truths were the mainstay of Baptist preaching and teaching. Everyone who was Baptist carried a Scofield bible. My, how times have changed.

So true!! Today so many still use the Scofield and alot use the Ryrie Study Bible. I recall the day the pastor would say turn to blank page because most if not all had the Scofield. Renald Showers, Elwood McQuaid and Thomas Ice to name a few are still out there putting out good books of this type. Dispenstional truths are still taught and there are many churches that still teach it, however there are many that don't.

 

[Pipedude]

It's just one of the hazards of being militant and practicing eccesiastical separation: we attract weirdos. However, if you look at the movement's major colleges, events, and publications through history (1930-onward), you'll see that the weirdos are an accretion, and not original.

Whether or not the weirdos now dominate the movement depends on how you define membership in the movement. My IFB pastor graduated from three movement schools, our church swarms with BJU, TTU, and PCC grads, and yet we exhibit almost none of the OP's identifying characteristics--except for shunning cigars, wine, and those godforsaken hellholes called movie theaters.

I've seen plenty of the other kind of churches, but I think our church testifies to the essentially balanced charater of Fundamentalism generally.

 

[Deacon]

You have to add at least one more doctrine to your list that is closely related to the anti-education statement in Ed’s post above.

You can hold firmly to each of the opening posts positions and still be excluded if you hold to an old-earth creationist position.

Rob

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by IFB Mole:

The IFBx music standard is such that even Southern Gospel Music –let alone CCM - is "of the devil" "worldly" or "liberal" or "modernism" or "sensual" or "fleshly" (funny thing is ALL hymns and the like were contemporary at one time or another) or in other words ANY music other than church approved is worldly and liberal

They would never dance – even a slow song with their spouse – and they call theaters "movie houses". They would never go to the “movie house”, but they will rent DVD’s!!

I wonder what they do with Eccl 3:4, "A time to weep and a time to laugh; A time to mourn and a time to dance." Is it possible they do not believe all of scripture is inspired by God?

 

[Ron Arndt]

Ed Edwards

I agree with you that the bible DOES teach the rapture or catching away of the church, But where we disagree is that the bible does not teach this event will occur without the world being aware of it. The world will see and hear what is happenning. The trumpet will sound and at the same time the saints are glorified, the wicked will be destroyed with everlasting fire. II Thess chap 1:7 thru 10.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Deacon:
You have to add at least one more doctrine to your list that is closely related to the anti-education statement in Ed’s post above.

You can hold firmly to each of the opening posts positions and still be excluded if you hold to an old-earth creationist position.

Rob

Yes, I remember being so ostracized

But it was a bit much when they assumed that because I disagreed with their creation stance,
that I was for recreational abortion.

Not to mention i'm a young earther, but don't
accept Bishop Ussher's numbers.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ron Arndt: //But where we disagree is that the bible does
not teach this event will occur without the world being
aware of it. The world will see and hear what is happenning.//

We agree on that.
What we don't agree on is what AND means here:

Titus 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for that blessed hope,
AND
the glorious appearing of the great God,
and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Does this AND connect two equal sets of events or
two similar sets of events?

I'll not be shooting you cause you got the wrong
definition of 'and'.

 

[rlvaughn]

Tales from the Temple by James T. Spurgeon gives an interesting account of one brand of extremism.

 

[Ron Arndt]

Ed Edwards

Ed, when to two nouns are joined by a conjunction in Greek, they both are speaking of the same thing or person. Here is another scripture for example; 2 Peter 2:1 Christ is called our God AND Savior. Both are joined by the Greek conjunction "and".

So going back to Titus 2:13 the blessed hope AND the glorious appearing are one in the same event.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by shannonL:
Why don't you spend a little more time taking care of your own walk with the Lord instead of ranting and raving over a particular group of folk or are whether you like it or not apart of the BODY.
Go do your thing for the Lord and let God deal with the problem.
I always get a kick out guys who love to point fingers at the IFB pharisees. When they pass judgement on them aren't they becoming a pharisee themselves?
For example I don't particularly dig the seeker friendly mode of doing things and I don't particularly like alot of the authors, pastors etc.. that promote that style of ministry. Yet if those guys can pretty much line up with that list of fundamentals that you listed then I'm willing to call them brothers.
So as a mature christian why don't you try looking past some of the pettiness and extras that some IFB try to add to the fundamentals and learn to apprectiate some of what they do for the body of Christ. Because like it or not most IFB to a degree would line up with the list of fundamentals you posted in turn your required by God and his word to Love the brethren regardless of some of their quirks. Even if they don't give you the same respect.
Try thinking about that a little bit before you
go off on a pointless rampage against a particular element of folk who make up the body of Christ. I will continue to try and do the same the next time I have to hear about PDL or Willowcreek.

This is very well said, ShannonL. I've never seen the whole issue painted with such a broad, broad brush as it is in this OP, even on the BB. And I grew up IFB and have known many of the leaders over the years, and have a library of many books on Fundamentalism and its leaders.

The IFB movement is so diverse going into the 21st century that it is ridiculaous to describe it as the OP does. I don't see how I could participate in this thread as it stands other than what I've just written.

I'm out of here.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by Watchman:

“Old-fashioned modernism” which will included Scoffield/Darby Dispensational Premillenialism (7 year tribulation/rapture/millennium)

You seriously need to read something on the 19th-20th century history of the church if you think this is modernism!!!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Ron Arndt: //when to two nouns are joined by a conjunction in Greek, they both are speaking of the same thing or person.//

Ephesians 6:1-3 (KJV1611 Edition):
Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right.
2 Honour thy father and mother, (which is the first commandement with promise,)
3 That it may bee well with thee, and thou maiest liue long on the earth.

Per your guideline, your father AND your mother are the same person.
That is foolish. QED, your statement is false by this one example.

What do you really disagree with?

But I grant you the Liberty in Christ to
make your own theological and Greek grammar
mistakes -- as often as you wish.

 

[Ron Arndt]

Ed

The same subject is being spoken of in both Titus 2:13 and II Peter 1:2. That is why the the conjunction "and" joins them as being one in the same subject.

In Ephesians 6:2 Mother and Father are obviously two DIFFERENT nouns or persons and so in the Greek cannot be referring to one in the same subject. The Granville Sharp rule of conjunction is ONLY used when both nouns refer to the same subject or person.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Consider this 'rule':
//when to two nouns are joined by a conjunction in Greek,
they both are speaking of the same thing or person.//

but it has been modified by //The Granville Sharp rule of conjunction
is ONLY used when both nouns refer to the same subject or person//

so by substitution in the first sentence:
'when both nouns refer to the same subject or person' we have:

when to two nouns are joined by a conjunction in Greek,
when both nouns refer to the same subject or person,
they both are speaking of the same thing or person.

Oops, this is true but VERY TRIVIAL.

Ed Edwards: //What we don't agree on is what AND means here:

Titus 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for that blessed hope,
AND
the glorious appearing of the great God,
and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,//

And you have proved that we disagree on waht "AND" means here.
Ron Arndt thinks the AND is combining two descriptors of the
same set; Ed thinks that two seperate sets of events are described.

My belief of AND here produces the pretribulation rapture
and Ron Arndt's produces the postribulation rapture.

Using the Bible as a whole, here is the differences between
the 'blessed hope' and 'the glorious appearing':
------------------------------------------------
Comparing the rapture/resurrection (R) AKA: gathering
with the Second Advent (SC): when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Kingdom AKA: Glorious Appearance.

1R. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1SC. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical bodies) (Rev 19:14)

2R. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2SC. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)

3R. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3SC. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)

4R. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4SC. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)

5R. Tribulation period begins
5SC. Millennial Kingdom begins

6R. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6SC. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)

7R. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7SC. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)

8R. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8SC. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)

9R. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9SC. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)

10R. No judgement mentioned on earth
10SC. Follows the Tribulation period
judgement and followed by the sheep/goats
judgement of lMatthew 25.

11R. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11SC. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)

12R. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12SC. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).

13R. Christians are promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come
13SC. Israeli are told to flee the wrath to come
------------------------------------------------

However, I won't be eXtream and break fellowship with Ron Arndt.

For another exciting time with the word 'AND' consider this
verse (the AND is caps & Bolded):

Rev 20:4 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
& I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither his image, neither had receiued his marke vpon
their foreheads, or in their hands; and they liued and reigned
with Christ a thousand yeeres.

I believe this & unites two descriptors of two different groups of
people: first the Pre-trib saints from the Gentile Age
and second the tribulation saints. Of course, both groups will
serve on a physical EARTH with Christ in a Physical Jerusalem in
a Physical Israel on a Physical Throne of David for a physical
1,000 yerars. Others will say it is all spiritual and there is
but one group but with two descriptors.

But I don't disfellowship anybody who embraces the post-tribualtion
rapture/resurrection only doctrine. After all, what if they are
'right' about 'and'?