My kind of Hume-or.I Kant tell.![]()
(I can't do anything with Kierkegaard. My talent ends here.)
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My kind of Hume-or.I Kant tell.![]()
I don't know if they were legalists or not, but not for head coverings.The paper I'm listening to being presented now makes the point that all of the early church fathers taught that women always should have a head covering, and not wearing a head covering was immodest. Guess Irenaeus, Tertullian, and all those guys were legalists, eh?
How would you describe the doctrine of personal separation? Avoid the World system? Avoid sinful environments?The charge of "legalism" against fundamentalism is old but usually false, made by those who do not understand the fundamentalist doctrine of personal separation. (I do not say it is never true.) Simply making a list of rules is not legalism, if that is what you are referring to. (A church constitution is a list of rules.) The correct definition of legalism is this by Baptist theologian Millard Erickson is: “Legalism is a slavish following of the law in the belief that one thereby earns merit; it also entails a refusal to go beyond the formal or literal requirements of the law” (Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 3rd ed. (2013, p. 908). Very few fundamentalist churches would go along with that.
When New Evangelicalism separated from fundamentalism in 1957, one of the major reasons was the fundamentalist doctrine of personal separation. The New Evangelicals (led by Billy Graham) objected to any kind of standards of separation, and stood for cooperation with liberals, kicked off by the 1957 New York crusade of Graham.
I have been scolded for allowing my wife to dress our children so nicely for church. Ironically, we don’t spend money on clothes all the clothes being complained about were given to us. We also were not the best dressed in the church either. (Not that we were having contests) For someone to walk around the church and tell someone that their clothes are not expensive enough or are too expensive is not something that you can accurately judge unless we start wearing receipts. That would be ridiculous. It is equally wrong, in my opinion, assume that if someone is wearing something that you wouldn’t, that they are putting on airs. It might be what God has provided for them in the form of hand me downs. I’ve also been called worldly because I had a shiny tie. I didn’t know it was shiny until it was pointed out. I thought they were joking.I don't know if they were legalists or not, but not for head coverings.
It was not legalism in Scripture because of the representation of head coverings (as Paul explained). It would not have been modest for a woman not to cover her head (it would be elevating oneself, like wearing expensive clothes or jewlery).
I do not believe it legalistic, for example, if you corrected a man for wearing an expensive suit, or a woman for fancy hairstyles, expensive jewlery, etc., because that is ignoring modesty.
My concern is more with people who would put on airs, dress in a way they would not otherwise dress, "dress to impress", etc. But mostly my concern with that is if it isolates people who do not have the means to meet a specific standard.
And it goes both ways. If somebody "dressed down" specifically for church (we should always be modest) that would be questionable.
If having beards or not is part of the discussion (because I have never run into that as an issue in all my IFB life) that is a glaring point that there are strange fringes.All groups have their nutcases. Not all IFBs are the same. Some get away from the schools and change. Some get worse and some get better. My grandson is the Youth Pastor of a IFB Church in Arlington, TX. Two churches actually merged. The pastor and my grandson have beards and they mix the hymns with selected contemporary songs.
Personal separation is for the purpose of keeping me from sin. Therefore, for example, modesty (on men and women) keeps from lust. Not watching movies (c. f. John R. Rice and others writing against them back in the 1940s-1950s is to avoid being influenced by copious alcohol use, existentialism, and other dangers.How would you describe the doctrine of personal separation? Avoid the World system? Avoid sinful environments?
You don't have to use the non-theological charge of "legalism" to help people in these areas. There are Scriptures.I don't know if they were legalists or not, but not for head coverings.
It was not legalism in Scripture because of the representation of head coverings (as Paul explained). It would not have been modest for a woman not to cover her head (it would be elevating oneself, like wearing expensive clothes or jewlery).
of tc., because that is ignoring modesty.
My concern is more with people who would put on airs, dress in a way they would not otherwise dress, "dress to impress", etc. But mostly my concern with that is if it isolates people who do not have the means to meet a specific standard.
And it goes both ways. If somebody "dressed down" specifically for church (we should always be modest) that would be questionable.
I don't think that would be legalism.I have a good friend from college (still a friend and we keep in contact) who used to rail against fundamentalist "legalism." And he never let me try to counter or explain. His boy turned into a drug addict, and once even punched his mother in the face. Maybe a little more "legalism"--i. e., strict standards in the home (with love)--would have helped that family.
Oh, yes, that's a compliment, comparing the fundamentalist to a Pharisee.I don't think that would be legalism.
What I call "legalism" (the "popular definition") is not following rules or establishing rules for children.
As Christians we judge the actions of one another, and we hold one another accountable.
The problem with the Pharisees enforcing the Law was not that they enforced the Law but that they created laws to keep from breaking the Law and enforced a standard ignoring the intent of the Law. They were superficial.
No, I never said this and don't agree with it. I don't know where you got that, but it was not from me. And I never talked about "new evangelism," but "New Evangelicalism"--a huge difference. You don't know 20th century evangelical history if you don't know that terminology.You said that wearing a suit and tie is "evangelism" while not doing so is an invention of "new evangelism".
Why a suit and tie?
Again, you are the only one talking about "theological legalism". That is not what people charge IFB with. They use the "popular definition" (the definition you said I was using). I do understand why you view legalism as offensive. But the reason is you are defining the word different from what non-IFB are saying. Nobody, that I know of, is calling IFB churches theologically legalistic. People are using the "popular definition", the dictionary definition. And, for my part, I said this does not apply to IFB churches as a whole but only my experience with IFB churches.You don't have to use the non-theological charge of "legalism" to help people in these areas. There are Scriptures.
Here's the thing. The incorrect cultural, non-theological charge of "legalism" seems to be one way. The opposite of true theological legalism is antinomianism, the belief that Christians are free to do anything they want and none of it is sin. Have I ever accused any non-fundamentalist here on the BB of antinomianism? No I have not, nor has anyone here. There is no need to use such charges to have a helpful discussion. Scripture is sufficient.
No, that is not the complaint. Nobody is comparing fundamentalists to Pharisees, but the practice of making rules to make sure other rules are kept to the Pharisees making laws to make sure other laws are kept.Oh, yes, that's a compliment, comparing the fundamentalist to a Pharisee.
No, I never said this and don't agree with it. I don't know where you got that, but it was not from me. And I never talked about "new evangelism," but "New Evangelicalism"--a huge difference. You don't know 20th century evangelical history if you don't know that terminology.
Sorry....auto correct on my phone. "New Evangelicals".4. If you think it's fine to go to church without a suit, or women wearing pants, etc., fine, but that is not what evangelicalism used to be. It's an invention of the New Evangelicals. At our church, anyone can wear almost anything, but they gradually learn what we believe honors God.
Sorry, I'm in a session and can't answer this right now. Hopefully later. But I will just say that the "cultural" use of "legalism" is an illegitimate and pejorative usage. In other words, it is used in popular culture to accuse and confuse, not to dialogue.Again, you are the only one talking about "theological legalism". That is not what people charge IFB with. They use the "popular definition" (the definition you said I was using). I do understand why you view legalism as offensive. But the reason is you are defining the word different from what non-IFB are saying. Nobody, that I know of, is calling IFB churches theologically legalistic. People are using the "popular definition", the dictionary definition. And, for my part, I said this does not apply to IFB churches as a whole but only my experience with IFB churches.
Do you believe it is holding a standard with love to yell at a 7 year old girl that she is going to Hell for wearing shorts? I say that is legalism.
This is some of what I believe about how we are to dress:
1 Timothy 2:9-10 - likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.
1 Peter 3:3-4 - Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious
If Scripture commanded men to wear a suit and tie (or attire the world associates with success) then it would be different.
Do I care what people wear to worship God or to listen to the gosoel message? No.
We have some in suits. Thats great. Some are in jeans snd a shirt, some shorts. Thats great.
I am more concerned that they come.
Now I'm attending a different type of church (one in the community, meeting at a school to reach out to the lost and the unchurched Christians). So this is less an issue as most have no suit to wear.
The pastor that ordained me would often counter challenges with the "don't go up against God's man" or "Touch not my anointed." He would also say, "People who believe that get divorced." Sadly, his wife had an affair and he ended up divorced. I have prayed they would reconcile, but it would be a miracle since like many IFBs that adultery is an automatic divorce ticket. Marriages have overcome such things. I often wonder how many people are living in adultery because wanted to restore the marriage and some pastors and all of the friends of the betrayed misused a text making divorce mandatory and it was OK to remarry.I have a good friend from college (still a friend and we keep in contact) who used to rail against fundamentalist "legalism." And he never let me try to counter or explain. His boy turned into a drug addict, and once even punched his mother in the face. Maybe a little more "legalism"--i. e., strict standards in the home (with love)--would have helped that family.
OK.Sorry, I'm in a session and can't answer this right now. Hopefully later. But I will just say that the "cultural" use of "legalism" is an illegitimate and pejorative usage. In other words, it is used in popular culture to accuse and confuse, not to dialogue.
Doesn't blue jeans gal have jewelry on too? A nose ring? Ear gauges?Last question (for now....I'm always full of questions):
You see two women at church.
One is wearing a nice dress, a gold necklace and pearl earrings.
The other is wearing blue jeans and a plain t-shirt.
Lol....no.....just blue jeans and a Christian t-shirt (from a local church event at the lake).Doesn't blue jeans gal have jewelry on too? A nose ring? Ear gauges?
Nobody.Who told Adam and Eve that they were naked?