Fundamentalism Versus Evangelicalism

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I can't answer this objection because I do not understand what it is. God speaks about 144,00 evangelists he chooses, 12 K from each of the 12 tribes of Israel to go into the world to preach the gospel of the kingdom during the first 3 1/2 years of the 7 years. Then, the key, "AFTER THIS" which would be the second 3 1/2 years when the MAN of SIN kills their converst during what he call the GREAT tribulation. You make this hard because you will not believe the words.

First of all, there is a 'great multitude' in Revelation 7:9-10 from every tribe, tongue, nation and people. If they are not the saved of all time, who are they? Yet you have denied that they are a great multitude, which means that you have counted them. Secondly, the 144,000 are never described as evangelists. We read that they are the servants of God and that they are 'sealed.' Thirdly, they are not from the 12 tribes of Israel; where are Ephraim and Dan? Fourthly, you are imposing your 31/2 and 7 years on the texts. One of us is 'not believing the words,' but I think you'll find it's you.

You are being coy here with your wording, Martin. The cross of Jesus Christ is an incidental part of your salvation with the central part being pre world election and regeneration being before believing the gospel. God will not regenerate someone he has not previously elected in your sytematic theology so stop trying to use double talk with me and others. No one, you say, can be saved unless God first regenerates them.

It is not I who says that no one can be saved unless God first regenerates him; it is the Bible, in several places. I object in the strongest terms to your saying that the cross is incidental to my theology. No one could ever be saved unless the Lord Jesus had suffered and died for his or her sins. Please do not make baseless accusations.
I have said countless times on this board that both parts of John 6:37 must be accepted. I will repeat myself once more if you want, but constant repetition is wearisome for both writer and reader.

This is not the gospel I believe but I do understand what you teach if you are a Calvinist, hyper or non hyper. I do not accept this teaching as being fundamental Christianity and I do not believe it to be good news and glad tidings for most of the people on this earth who were not elected as you claim to be.

You plainly do not understand Calvinism. Are you imagining huge numbers of people desperately seeking Christ and God turning them away? 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' is as true in Calvinism as it is in Arminianism

 

[JD731]

First of all, there is a 'great multitude' in Revelation 7:9-10 from every tribe, tongue, nation and people. If they are not the saved of all time, who are they? Yet you have denied that they are a great multitude, which means that you have counted them. Secondly, the 144,000 are never described as evangelists. We read that they are the servants of God and that they are 'sealed.' Thirdly, they are not from the 12 tribes of Israel; where are Ephraim and Dan? Fourthly, you are imposing your 31/2 and 7 years on the texts. One of us is 'not believing the words,' but I think you'll find it's you.

Revelation is first and foremost a prophecy. Prophecy is declaring future events. Revelation was written in 94 AD by the seer John. All things are future to that date.

Re1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

It would be impossible to understand the prophecy without believing the OT scriptures, particularly those scriptures that are in the context of the "day of the LORD" theme, because the great or the last 3 1/2 years of the seven years of tribulation is synonomous with it. Why do you think the ministry of Jesus Christ was 3 1/2 years long. Do you think the timing was happenstance? Jesus Christ said there has never been a time of trouble like it , nor ever will be. This includes the Noah flood.

I am accusing you, Martin, of being uninformed or misinformed and thus being decieved and decieving others about the truths in this prophecy.
(see my note at the end of this post)

It is not I who says that no one can be saved unless God first regenerates him; it is the Bible, in several places.

This is a made up doctrine. Martin. It is an adjustment in the TULIP system for the purpose of avoiding a conflict in it. It changes the salvation of God from "by grace THROUGH faith," to "by faith through grace." Paul, the great apostle, says that it (salvation = righteousness) is by faith that it might be of grace (Ro 4:16), and that grace is accessed by faith (Ro 5:1,2). Faith is never THE gift of God the Father to the unwashed. Faith is a gift of the Spirit to certain members of the body of Christ, but not to all, after they are saved.

I object in the strongest terms to your saying that the cross is incidental to my theology.

I am not dumb, Martin. The most important doctrine in your theology is to be chosen by God the Father to be saved before you exist. The cross matters not to those who aren't because God chooses to not regenerate them according to the very , very, false regeneration doctrine of the Reformed.

No one could ever be saved unless the Lord Jesus had suffered and died for his or her sins. Please do not make baseless accusations.

Reformed doctrine teaches determinism. I quoted Ro 5:8 to a Calvinist once and made to comment that only the elect are ungodly, because that is who Jesus Christ died for and then the invitation goes out to the nations, "whosoever WILL, let him come and drink of the water of life freely."

I have said countless times on this board that both parts of John 6:37 must be accepted. I will repeat myself once more if you want, but constant repetition is wearisome for both writer and reader.

John 6:37 is not a word to the world and at the end of the ministry of Jesus Christ he was put to death and not a single living person believed in his resurrection from the dead, even after they were told of it, especially his disciples. If Jesus Christ was asking anyone to come believing that he died for their sins and rose again from the dead, or that he would die and rise again, his ministry was totally fruitless. For proof of this just read the last couple chapters of the four gospels.
Jesus Christ was establishing a fundamental of the faith in John 6 and that was the fact that unsaved men must first believe that he is the SON OF GOD. No one can be saved unless they do. Peter and the apostles would later be unbelievers in the resurrection of Jesus Christ if one can believe the words of Jesus our lord but they did believe in John 6 that he was the son of God, and they said so.

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

This is what the Jews had to believe to be justified before the death and resurrection.

You plainly do not understand Calvinism. Are you imagining huge numbers of people desperately seeking Christ and God turning them away? 'Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' is as true in Calvinism as it is in Arminianism

It is who cannot call is our difference.

The "day of the Lord' prophecy compasses about 1000 years, beginning with Joel and ending with Peter and John. 12 different preachers preached this prophecy and it was always "coming." It is an appointed day of wrath on the ungodly in it's initial wording. Those 12 prophets wrote 15 books mentioning this day. It is mentioned by name 30 times in 29 verses and the 30th verse when it finally comes changes up a slight bit and says this.

Revelation 6:17
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

John called this day by this name;

Revelation 1:10
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

We have all been warned!

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

This is fundamentalism. Believe the words.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Revelation is first and foremost a prophecy. Prophecy is declaring future events.

Prophecy is not only foretelling, it is also forth-telling: speaking forth the words of God. At least half of what the prophets wrote was telling the people their sin, and then warning them of judgment to come.

Revelation was written in 94 AD by the seer John. All things are future to that date.

Do you find the date 94 AD in your Bible, or is that another thing you have either made up or received from some Dispensationalist writer or other? The prophesies concern the time between our Lord's ascension to heaven and His future return.

Re1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Amen! Note the word 'shortly' and that 'the time is at hand.' The prophesies are not all clustered around some time in the future. Many of the things described have been going on all through the Gospel age and will continue until He returns, though some are obviously reserved for the end.

It would be impossible to understand the prophecy without believing the OT scriptures, particularly those scriptures that are in the context of the "day of the LORD" theme, because the great or the last 3 1/2 years of the seven years of tribulation is synonomous with it. Why do you think the ministry of Jesus Christ was 3 1/2 years long. Do you think the timing was happenstance? Jesus Christ said there has never been a time of trouble like it , nor ever will be. This includes the Noah flood.

There, I think is your problem. You are squeezing everything in Revelation into a mold of someone else's imagination.

I am accusing you, Martin, of being uninformed or misinformed and thus being decieved and decieving others about the truths in this prophecy.
(see my note at the end of this post)

As I say, one of us is deceived and deceiving others, but I'm afraid it's actually you. Your theology may be what you think of as Fundamentalism, but it is not true fundamentalism and you actually don't believe the words until you have forced them into your grid .

 

[5 point Gillinist]

Someone gave me a copy of Gail Riplinger's book (forget the title) and about half way through and after I found out the author was a woman, I canned it.

I'm not a fan of the KJV (due to it's antiquated language), but I can at least respect a KJV best position. That said the "onlyists" I have seen have been conspiracy theorists and scripture twisters. I received a copy of Ripplinger's book from an individual who tried to convince me of the KJVO position. I skimmed it, and by the end I fully expected to read something like Henry Kissinger was responsible for sinking the titanic.

 

[JD731]

I'm not a fan of the KJV (due to it's antiquated language), but I can at least respect a KJV best position. That said the "onlyists" I have seen have been conspiracy theorists and scripture twisters. I received a copy of Ripplinger's book from an individual who tried to convince me of the KJVO position. I skimmed it, and by the end I fully expected to read something like Henry Kissinger was responsible for sinking the titanic.

I say this some times, 5 point G, most often KJV only people, like myself, finds our critics are usually in some sense 5 pointers, like yourself. I used to marvel at what 5 pointers say they believe, then I found out what they don't believe and now I understand that the latter is far worse than the former. I would actually be really, really surprised to find out that any 5 pointer believed in a perfect translation, or even a perfect manuscript from which the translations come. KJVO believers are generally Independent Fundamentalists Baptists who views the words of the Bible differently than do you, beginning at Gen 1:1 where the word "heaven" is seen as plural by men in most of their Bibles but singular by God. How could anyone believe the word of God if they begin by not believing the words came from God?

Having said that, I know I am in the minority and I acknowledge that you could be right and there will be day when there will not be a single person left on the earth who believes. Only not believers will be left. I even have a verse that says this.

Ps 12:1 «To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.» Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

Time will tell.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I say this some times, 5 point G, most often KJV only people, like myself, finds our critics are usually in some sense 5 pointers, like yourself. I used to marvel at what 5 pointers say they believe, then I found out what they don't believe and now I understand that the latter is far worse than the former. I would actually be really, really surprised to find out that any 5 pointer believed in a perfect translation, or even a perfect manuscript from which the translations come. KJVO believers are generally Independent Fundamentalists Baptists who views the words of the Bible differently than do you, beginning at Gen 1:1 where the word "heaven" is seen as plural by men in most of their Bibles but singular by God. How could anyone believe the word of God if they begin by not believing the words came from God?

FYI, almost all KJV-only people in Britain are Reformed, and therefore Calvinists. I never normally criticize the KJV, but in your case I will make an exception. Some years ago, there were seven churches where I preached occasionally that used the KJV. I never had any objection to using it if asked. Over the years, three have closed down, two have switched to the NKJV and the other two have become cultish in their tiny congregations and only really converse with other churches that are T.R. - "Truly Reformed." Oh, and I forgot Joel Beeke. He's a KJV man, and a Reformed Calvinist, but not so bigoted that he won't treat others civilly.

However, are you aware that the Hebrew word for 'heaven' and 'the heavens' as they are translated by the KJV are the same (shamayim). And how do you account for the following?
Genesis 1:1. 'In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.'
Genesis 2:1. 'Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.'
Genesis 2:4. 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.'
So is it God who is inconsistent or the KJV translators?
FYI again, the term 'the heaven(s) and the earth' is a figure of speech known as a merism. It takes two opposites and puts them side by side to make an all-inclusive statement - He made everything, the lot!
One other thing: the Jews believed that there were three heavens: the tops of trees and the place where birds fly; the home of the sun, moon and stars, and the 'third heaven' (2 Corinthians 12:2), also called 'the heaven of heavens' (e.g. Deuteronomy 10:14; Nehemiah 9:6). Hence, when Matthew speaks of the 'kingdom of heaven,' he actually writes, 'the kingdom of the heavens.' (Gk. He basileia ton ouranon). God rules over it all.

Having said that, I know I am in the minority and I acknowledge that you could be right and there will be day when there will not be a single person left on the earth who believes. Only not believers will be left. I even have a verse that says this.

Ps 12:1 «To the chief Musician upon Sheminith, A Psalm of David.» Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men.

Time will tell.

You are clearly suffering from a bad case of Elijahitis. "I'm the only true believer left and now they're after me!"

 

[JD731]

FYI, almost all KJV-only people in Britain are Reformed, and therefore Calvinists. I never normally criticize the KJV, but in your case I will make an exception. Some years ago, there were seven churches where I preached occasionally that used the KJV. I never had any objection to using it if asked. Over the years, three have closed down, two have switched to the NKJV and the other two have become cultish in their tiny congregations and only really converse with other churches that are T.R. - "Truly Reformed." Oh, and I forgot Joel Beeke. He's a KJV man, and a Reformed Calvinist, but not so bigoted that he won't treat others civilly.

However, are you aware that the Hebrew word for 'heaven' and 'the heavens' as they are translated by the KJV are the same (shamayim). And how do you account for the following?
Genesis 1:1. 'In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.'
Genesis 2:1. 'Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.'
Genesis 2:4. 'These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.'
So is it God who is inconsistent or the KJV translators?
FYI again, the term 'the heaven(s) and the earth' is a figure of speech known as a merism. It takes two opposites and puts them side by side to make an all-inclusive statement - He made everything, the lot!
One other thing: the Jews believed that there were three heavens: the tops of trees and the place where birds fly; the home of the sun, moon and stars, and the 'third heaven' (2 Corinthians 12:2), also called 'the heaven of heavens' (e.g. Deuteronomy 10:14; Nehemiah 9:6). Hence, when Matthew speaks of the 'kingdom of heaven,' he actually writes, 'the kingdom of the heavens.' (Gk. He basileia ton ouranon). God rules over it all.

Come now Martin, the heaven was not divided into three parts in Ge 1:1 but it was in Gen 2:1. The idea is the creation teaches the trinitarian nature of God and the signature of the trinity is everywhere in creation. Three in one and one in three. Study the creation week and see if you can see this signature all over the place. So, the heaven is one heaven, singular, while it is three heavens, plural, yet one heaven. Doesn't the scriptures teach us this marvelous truth? Doesn't the KJV have it right?



Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.

You are clearly suffering from a bad case of Elijahitis. "I'm the only true believer left and now they're after me

Not really a Elijahitis, whatever that is, Martin.

 

[David Lamb]

Come now Martin, the heaven was not divided into three parts in Ge 1:1 but it was in Gen 2:1. The idea is the creation teaches the trinitarian nature of God and the signature of the trinity is everywhere in creation. Three in one and one in three. Study the creation week and see if you can see this signature all over the place. So, the heaven is one heaven, singular, while it is three heavens, plural, yet one heaven. Doesn't the scriptures teach us this marvelous truth? Doesn't the KJV have it right?

I don't see in Martin's post anything to suggest that heaven was divided into three parts, but rather that "heaven(s) is used to refer to 3 things: "One other thing: the Jews believed that there were three heavens: the tops of trees and the place where birds fly; the home of the sun, moon and stars, and the 'third heaven' (2 Corinthians 12:2), also called 'the heaven of heavens' (e.g. Deuteronomy 10:14; Nehemiah 9:6)." Indeed, some languages today use the same word for "sky" as they do for "heaven": in French, for example, both are "ciel."

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

First of all, there was only one heaven in Genesis 1:1 and the other heaven was made later.

 

[JD731]

I don't see in Martin's post anything to suggest that heaven was divided into three parts, but rather that "heaven(s) is used to refer to 3 things: "One other thing: the Jews believed that there were three heavens: the tops of trees and the place where birds fly; the home of the sun, moon and stars, and the 'third heaven' (2 Corinthians 12:2), also called 'the heaven of heavens' (e.g. Deuteronomy 10:14; Nehemiah 9:6)." Indeed, some languages today use the same word for "sky" as they do for "heaven": in French, for example, both are "ciel."

Come and let us reason together. Your post indicates to me that you have not reasoned this out.

First, let's reason about God. In the beginning God, (Elohym, a plural name for God) created the heaven (singular) and the earth. After that he began to divide (the first mathematical term used by God) everything, including the heaven after he had created time. In fact time is the method of creating and is a prophetic pattern for completing his purpose with mankind. More on that later.

Now, God does not need anything, not even a heaven to occupy. He existed before the heaven of heavens that someone mentioned. That heaven was part of the 6 day creation.
1st heaven - where the birds fly
2nd heaven - where the stars abide
3rd heaven - where the throne of God is
It is the same heaven but it is in three parts to make the whole. Each heaven works in perfect union with the other parts.

Everything that God creates must have a place and every created entity can occupy only one place at any given time. God is the only entity that is omnipresent and he occupies every place that he creates at the same time. He transcends time. (This is the reason all sin must be completely put away from his sight lest he sees it forever)

The eyes of the LORD are in every place beholding the evil and the good.
The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous and his ears are open unto their prayers, but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Some additional helpful commentary.

He has divided time several different ways for his purpose but the division into one week (7 days) is the length of time for the entire creation cycle. Then, he tells us later that he thinks in terms that each 24 hour day is like 1000 years to him in the cycle. It was his intention, and still is, to test men who he created progressively under several different principles within this cycle of days and years and to perfect him. This dual application, one for men and the other for himself, will be important throughout his entire revelation of his purpose. Ignore this and there will not be any light for you.

2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In time, God has given six of the days to men and has set the pattern in the 24 hour days of the week to complete the week for him but the seventh day he has set aside for himself. Men will work for six days, and then enter into the seventh day as a day of rest from his labors, with God. The seventh day is the day of complete things. At the end of it time will be no more and there will be no more testing of men and there will be an eternal day with no night and this is called in scripture "the day of God."

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Back to the seventh day on the week time cycle, it is called "the day of the LORD" in 15 different books of the Bible by 12 different authors. In the immediate context of this prophetic theme of scriptures, it is the set time or the reserved time of intense judgement of God upon his whole creation in it's beginning for the purpose of purging out all things that offend and that are wicked, both among men and angels. This term, "day of the Lord" is in the scriptures 30 times in 29 verses before it actually comes to pass in the very beginning of the day. It is always in all the Bible books a day that is coming. God uses this number 30 for maturity (I will not prove this here) Jesus Christ is the Lord GOD and this is his day as the perfect son of man and the perfect son of God and he will rule over the earth on the throne of David in Jerusalem in perfect harmony (after the initial judgement of that day) with God the Father who is in the third heaven for the extent of the 1000 year seventh day which will complete the week and the cycle of time.

So, God has given the earth to men for six thousand years to be stewards of it and has tested us under several different principles. The end result will be a sevenfold purified citizenship of the eternal kingdom of God.

There are two places and two citizenships through eternity.

Psa 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD (JEHOVAH) which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

I say WOW! What a God we serve. Hallelujah!

 

[GodisgraciousR325]

Al

Come and let us reason together. Your post indicates to me that you have not reasoned this out.

First, let's reason about God. In the beginning God, (Elohym, a plural name for God) created the heaven (singular) and the earth. After that he began to divide (the first mathematical term used by God) everything, including the heaven after he had created time. In fact time is the method of creating and is a prophetic pattern for completing his purpose with mankind. More on that later.

Now, God does not need anything, not even a heaven to occupy. He existed before the heaven of heavens that someone mentioned. That heaven was part of the 6 day creation.
1st heaven - where the birds fly
2nd heaven - where the stars abide
3rd heaven - where the throne of God is
It is the same heaven but it is in three parts to make the whole. Each heaven works in perfect union with the other parts.

Everything that God creates must have a place and every created entity can occupy only one place at any given time. God is the only entity that is omnipresent and he occupies every place that he creates at the same time. He transcends time. (This is the reason all sin must be completely put away from his sight lest he sees it forever)

The eyes of the LORD are in every place beholding the evil and the good.
The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous and his ears are open unto their prayers, but the face of the Lord are against them that do evil.

Some additional helpful commentary.

He has divided time several different ways for his purpose but the division into one week (7 days) is the length of time for the entire creation cycle. Then, he tells us later that he thinks in terms that each 24 hour day is like 1000 years to him in the cycle. It was his intention, and still is, to test men who he created progressively under several different principles within this cycle of days and years and to perfect him. This dual application, one for men and the other for himself, will be important throughout his entire revelation of his purpose. Ignore this and there will not be any light for you.

2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In time, God has given six of the days to men and has set the pattern in the 24 hour days of the week to complete the week for him but the seventh day he has set aside for himself. Men will work for six days and then enter into the seventh day as a day of rest from his labors with God. The seventh day is the day of complete things. At the end of it time will be no more and there will be no more testing of men and there will be an eternal day with no night and this is called in scripture "the day of God."

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Back to the seventh day on the week time cycle, it is called "the day of the LORD" in 15 different books of the Bible by 12 different authors. In the immediate context of this prophetic theme of scriptures, it is the set time or the reserved time of intense judgement of God upon his whole creation in it's beginning for the purpose of purging out all things that offend and that are wicked, both among men and angels. This term, "day of the Lord" is in the scriptures 30 times in 29 verses before it actually comes to pass in the very beginning of the day. It is always in all the Bible books a day that is coming. God uses this number 30 for maturity (I will not prove this here) Jesus Christ is the Lord GOD and this is his day as the perfect son of man and the perfect son of God and he will rule over the earth on the throne of David in Jerusalem in perfect harmony (after the initial judgement of that day) with God the Father who is in the third heaven for the extent of the 1000 year seventh day which will complete the week and the cycle of time.

So, God has given the earth to men for six thousand years to be stewards of it and has tested us under several different principles. The end result will be a sevenfold purified citizenship of the eternal kingdom of God.

There are two places and two citizenships through eternity.

Psa 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD (JEHOVAH) which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

I say WOW! What a God we serve. Hallelujah!

Alleuia.

 

[David Lamb]

Come and let us reason together. Your post indicates to me that you have not reasoned this out.

First, let's reason about God. In the beginning God, (Elohym, a plural name for God) created the heaven (singular) and the earth. After that he began to divide (the first mathematical term used by God) everything, including the heaven after he had created time. In fact time is the method of creating and is a prophetic pattern for completing his purpose with mankind. More on that later.

Now, God does not need anything, not even a heaven to occupy. He existed before the heaven of heavens that someone mentioned. That heaven was part of the 6 day creation.
1st heaven - where the birds fly
2nd heaven - where the stars abide
3rd heaven - where the throne of God is
It is the same heaven but it is in three parts to make the whole. Each heaven works in perfect union with the other parts.

Everything that God creates must have a place and every created entity can occupy only one place at any given time. God is the only entity that is omnipresent and he occupies every place that he creates at the same time. He transcends time. (This is the reason all sin must be completely put away from his sight lest he sees it forever)

The eyes of the LORD are in every place beholding the evil and the good.
The eyes of the Lord are over the righteous and his ears are open unto their prayers, but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Some additional helpful commentary.

He has divided time several different ways for his purpose but the division into one week (7 days) is the length of time for the entire creation cycle. Then, he tells us later that he thinks in terms that each 24 hour day is like 1000 years to him in the cycle. It was his intention, and still is, to test men who he created progressively under several different principles within this cycle of days and years and to perfect him. This dual application, one for men and the other for himself, will be important throughout his entire revelation of his purpose. Ignore this and there will not be any light for you.

2 Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

In time, God has given six of the days to men and has set the pattern in the 24 hour days of the week to complete the week for him but the seventh day he has set aside for himself. Men will work for six days, and then enter into the seventh day as a day of rest from his labors, with God. The seventh day is the day of complete things. At the end of it time will be no more and there will be no more testing of men and there will be an eternal day with no night and this is called in scripture "the day of God."

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Back to the seventh day on the week time cycle, it is called "the day of the LORD" in 15 different books of the Bible by 12 different authors. In the immediate context of this prophetic theme of scriptures, it is the set time or the reserved time of intense judgement of God upon his whole creation in it's beginning for the purpose of purging out all things that offend and that are wicked, both among men and angels. This term, "day of the Lord" is in the scriptures 30 times in 29 verses before it actually comes to pass in the very beginning of the day. It is always in all the Bible books a day that is coming. God uses this number 30 for maturity (I will not prove this here) Jesus Christ is the Lord GOD and this is his day as the perfect son of man and the perfect son of God and he will rule over the earth on the throne of David in Jerusalem in perfect harmony (after the initial judgement of that day) with God the Father who is in the third heaven for the extent of the 1000 year seventh day which will complete the week and the cycle of time.

So, God has given the earth to men for six thousand years to be stewards of it and has tested us under several different principles. The end result will be a sevenfold purified citizenship of the eternal kingdom of God.

There are two places and two citizenships through eternity.

Psa 115:15 Ye are blessed of the LORD (JEHOVAH) which made heaven and earth.
16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.
17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
18 But we will bless the LORD from this time forth and for evermore. Praise the LORD.

I say WOW! What a God we serve. Hallelujah!

Let me start with your ending - yes, what a great God we serve!

As to whether the sky where birds fly and the clouds form, and space where the sun. moon and stars are. are divisions of, or separate from, the heaven where God dwells, and whether Martin actually meant that heaven is thus divided into three, I will leave to him to clarify.

Thanks for your thoughtful and thought-provoking reply.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Doesn't the KJV have it right?

No. shamayim is plural. And according to Genesis 2:24, the heavens were all created at the same time.
But we do serve a great God. We can agree on that.

 

[JD731]

No. shamayim is plural. And according to Genesis 2:24, the heavens were all created at the same time.
But we do serve a great God. We can agree on that.

Not sure how Ge 2:24 teaches this but concerning the heavens, the art of creating one entity is not the same thing as the art of dividing that one creation into three with the same essence in all it's parts. You are being stubborn and are not willing to reason. God through his creation is teaching truths about himself. You will find this three in one and one in three signature all through his creation. If you refuse to see it because of your preferences in defining God in your own way, you will remain in darkness.

You greatly err when you make yourself willing to present words of God in your own way as if a plural and a singular will not change the meaning and effect our understanding as we read and study. Maybe the Hebrews had capacity in their language to differentiate between the two, but Englishmen do not.

Deut 6:4 Hear O Israel:The LORD (Jehovah) our God (Elohym -a plural) is one LORD (Jehovah). This statement shows him as a trinity.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

One name for 3 persons.

Hell - Paradise - Abraham's bosom - Justified believers before the cross
Hell - Bottomless Pit - Great Gulf - Angel Class
Hell - This fire - Torments - Souls of Unsaved Men

Where - Center of the earth - No bodies here, only Spirits

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not sure

I think the answer is 'Believe the words.'

 

[37818]

Hell - Paradise - Abraham's bosom - Justified believers before the cross
Hell - Bottomless Pit - Great Gulf - Angel Class
Hell - This fire - Torments - Souls of Unsaved Men

The KJV without notes does not distinguish which hell is being referred to in any passage.

 

[JD731]

The KJV without notes does not distinguish which hell is being referred to in any passage.

I figured it out by context.

 

[37818]

I figured it out by context.

In the New Testament there 12 passages that reference places which are different than the 11 passages.

Can you list these 23 passages correctly without looking up the Greek, and explain individually each one it's context which place it is, case by case?

Personally I check their Strong's numbers.

 

[37818]

Do you put yourself in the category of Evangelical? Having read your musings over time, I think it is a good fit for you.

A fundamentalist. Biblical fundamentalist are evangelical.

 

[37818]

Romans 1:16. Gospel. . . . ευαγγελιον . . . .
. . . euaggelion . . . . Evangelion.