Fundamentalist Diversity

[Mexdeaf]

at the risk of being shown a complete ignoramus, Im going to try to respond to your last post, Rhet. :thumbs: Be kind.......


Are you speaking about a specific book or creed that laid out the Fundamentals for us? As I understand it, the movement covers such a broad group that there never was one specific creed which spelled out the "Fundamentalist Movement" except for their belief in the basic, traditional views of Scripture.

ie Trinity, (deity of Christ), virgin birth, salvation by grace, authority of the local church, creation in 7 24hr days.....literal view of Scripture unless specifically stated in the passage.....

Im sure others can put it better, but this is a start.

I believe what Rhet is referring to is this series of books- http://www.xmission.com/~fidelis/

Mexdeaf

 

[bapmom]

Thanks Mexdeaf

So I guess its obvious now that I don't own them and haven't read them?
:laugh:

 

[Rhetorician]

Fundamentals

bapmom, &

Mexdeaf, &

John of Japan,

John,

Please come in here and explain what the Fundamentals are and how the movement got started and devolved into something that it was never meant to be.

I am so biased and prejudiced in this area I could not possibly give an even handed answer.

Where are you John when we need you!

sdg!

rd

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Time difference

As John lives on Hokkaido, it's ~5am Tokyo Standard Time.

bapmom, &

Mexdeaf, &

John of Japan,

John,

Please come in here and explain what the Fundamentals are and how the movement got started and devolved into something that it was never meant to be.

I am so biased and prejudiced in this area I could not possibly give an even handed answer.

Where are you John when we need you!

sdg!

rd

 

[Mexdeaf]

To all who have an ear to hear:

Is there any one Fundamentalist here on the BB that knows what the original Fundamentals were? And if so, have you read them/or own them?

And if so, do anyone of you adhere to them as a doctrinal statement of your faith?

Has the volume of the original Fundamentals b/c passé to the movement? Or, has the movement taken on a political nuance? i.e., politics in the church not Democratic or Republican politics.

FWIW!

sdg!

rd

Rhet,

Although I do not own a copy of The Fundamentals, I have read parts of the volumes. It would be in good stead for those who claim to be fundamentalists to be familiar with what the fundamentals really are and what the battle is or was about. It isn't pants on women, length of hair, Bible versions or even which church or religious group is/was right on everything.

How could the fundamentals of the Bible become passé when they are the basis of our belief system as christians?

Yes , as a 'movement' (to use your word) The Fundamentals have gotten lost in the smoke of a thousand blazes over inconsequentials. Yes, in many cases the 'movement' has become more political (in the sense of 'it isn't what you know, it is WHO you know').

I eagerly await John's input. He is a much better thinker and communicator than I am.

 

[John of Japan]

To all who have an ear to hear:

I am making a joke here so I hope all of you can take it without offense?

"To all who have an ear to hear" may not be a good intro for this thread for the Fundamentalists? HA! :laugh:

I do have (a) some sincere question(s).

Is there any one Fundamentalist here on the BB that knows what the original Fundamentals were? And if so, have you read them/or own them?

And if so, do anyone of you adhere to them as a doctrinal statement of your faith?

Has the volume of the original Fundamentals b/c passé to the movement? Or, has the movement taken on a political nuance? i.e., politics in the church not Democratic or Republican politics.

FWIW!

sdg!

rd

:sleeping_2: :sleeping_2: :sleeping_2:
Yawn. What's all that yelling? Someone woke me up. Oh, it's you guys.

Patty is fixing breakfast, but I'll take a few minutes here.

Rhet, my one-volume copy of The Fundamentals is 710 pages long. No one ever used it for a doctrinal statement. It has articles on everything from the virgin birth to what is wrong with evolution and higher criticism to what is wrong with the Catholics, how to do missions, how to pray, how to tithe, etc., etc. And yes, many Fundamentalists have the book/pamphlets/set of books and have read it/them.

If you want an original source for Fundamentalist doctrinal statements, go back to the statements put out by millenarian conferences in the late 19th century. For further research on this, see The Roots of Fundamentlaism, by Ernest Sandeen. Sandeen's thesis is that Fundamentalism did not begin with The Fundamentals but with the millenarian conferences. I agree with him to a degree.

As for non-Democratic/Republican politics in the churches, you'll have to explain what you mean here. Are you referring to the repercussions of Jerry Falwell's "Moral Majority" in the late 1970's, or infighting about preservation, or something else entirely?

Gotta go. Breakfast smells good!

 

[John of Japan]

Actually, this is the very reason I started this thread. That is, I wanted to show that there are a lot of different groups who call themselves Fundamentalist and take a strong stand against liberalism, but differ on details.

To take just one issue, while the BBF has had controversy over the Bible versions issue, the GARB has not had near so much. Ian Paisley's Presbyterian group in Ireland (with close ties to BJU) uses the KJV and has made public statements on it, but has had no controversy about it within the group that I know of. In the IFCA Bible versions are not an issue. On another issue, the SBF (Southwide Baptist Fellowship) has been "drawing nigh" to the SBC, but the venerable FBF (Fundamental Baptist Fellowship) has not and will not.

And so it goes. There is wide diversity among Fundamentalist groups. Some have ties with each other and some do not. For example, I've never been to a Bible Presbyterian meeting but would like to. Dr. Carl McIntyre once gave the entire Rice Clan lodging in a motel he owned in Florida when we went to visit Disney World, but unfortunately he wasn't there and I didn't get to meet him. However, some IFB groups would not think of fellowshipping with Dr. McIntyre's group. In my mind that is their perogative and they are still Fundamentalists. :type:

 

[Rhetorician]

Reply

JOJ,

As usual you have said it well. If I add anything it would be tainted and negative. Sometimes it is just better to stand back and let others who know more and can say it better do the talking.

Thank you JOJ for the thread and the input. I count you an exception to the rule of most from the IFBers I have met. A man who knows that there are others outside of his own camp that love our Lord Jesus and are committed to Him and His Gospel. You can be, and are, a critical thinker without being a narrow minded I am right and everyone else is wrong critical thinker and still dialog about the issues with those with whom you do not agree.

JOJ, I consider you to be a friend and colleague in the ministry. I ask God's blessing on you in Japan and may your tribe increase.

Yours for the Kingdom's increase.

sdg!

rd:thumbsup:

rd

 

[John of Japan]

JOJ,

As usual you have said it well. If I add anything it would be tainted and negative. Sometimes it is just better to stand back and let others who know more and can say it better do the talking.

Thank you JOJ for the thread and the input. I count you an exception to the rule of most from the IFBers I have met. A man who knows that there are others outside of his own camp that love our Lord Jesus and are committed to Him and His Gospel. You can be, and are, a critical thinker without being a narrow minded I am right and everyone else is wrong critical thinker and still dialog about the issues with those with whom you do not agree.

JOJ, I consider you to be a friend and colleague in the ministry. I ask God's blessing on you in Japan and may your tribe increase.

Yours for the Kingdom's increase.

sdg!

rd:thumbsup:

rd

Oooooh, my head is swelling. STOP. raying:

No, seriously, thank you for the kind words, Rhet. All glory to God, amen?

I'd love to meet you on earth someday, but if I don't, "Here, there or in the air!" :wavey:

 

[tinytim]

"Here, there or in the air"... I haven't heard that for a long time.

I just figured out what this smiley is raise:

It is a smiley that is doing rapture practice!:tongue3:

 

[John of Japan]

"Here, there or in the air"... I haven't heard that for a long time.

I just figured out what this smiley is raise:

It is a smiley that is doing rapture practice!:tongue3:

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[thjplgvp]

Thoughts on the BBF

Brother John, I had Dr Robert Terry for my Baptist Church History course and I never saw him get angry except over the Baptist Brider issue which primarily reverts back to we are right and you are wrong. I never understood his stand back then but do now and appreciate it. He was in fact for diversity in fundamentalism and was adamantly against those who were so separated they were isolated in their own ignorance.

Quite honestly the rift in the BBF in recent years had IMO more to do initially with personalities but quickly focused on BBC's standards of dress and separation which were not represented consistently in all the churches. Instead of holding to identifiable standards in the college the leadership of the school and the state delegates BBF determined to treat the school like a church meaning lapses in separation was acceptable in the maturing process of the students.

This backfired and led to withdrawals from the fellowship and many emotional displays immaturity which led to more hurt feelings. Ultimately today we now have GIBF (Global Independent Baptist Fellowship) and the BBFI a split that occurred not over doctrine but separation.

Why? Unacceptable diversity on both sides.

A good thread and a good topic.

 

[John of Japan]

Brother John, I had Dr Robert Terry for my Baptist Church History course and I never saw him get angry except over the Baptist Brider issue which primarily reverts back to we are right and you are wrong. I never understood his stand back then but do now and appreciate it. He was in fact for diversity in fundamentalism and was adamantly against those who were so separated they were isolated in their own ignorance.

Quite honestly the rift in the BBF in recent years had IMO more to do initially with personalities but quickly focused on BBC's standards of dress and separation which were not represented consistently in all the churches. Instead of holding to identifiable standards in the college the leadership of the school and the state delegates BBF determined to treat the school like a church meaning lapses in separation was acceptable in the maturing process of the students.

This backfired and led to withdrawals from the fellowship and many emotional displays immaturity which led to more hurt feelings. Ultimately today we now have GIBF (Global Independent Baptist Fellowship) and the BBFI a split that occurred not over doctrine but separation.

Why? Unacceptable diversity on both sides.

A good thread and a good topic.

Hi, thjplgvp. I kept meaning to get back to this. Thanks for the good comments and the information on the BBF. I still plan to add more groups to the definitions here, but have been hoping someone else would.

I feel sorry for Fundamentalists who cannot fellowship with anyone who is not exactly like them. I remember the sainted Dr. Monroe Parker, a Fundamentalist if there ever was one, sharing with me the hope that a certain church he would send me to on deputation would come out of the group they were in, because the group tolerated liberalism. But he still sent me there in the hope that we could help them on their path!

My beloved grandfather, John R. Rice, often used these verses for such cases:

Ps. 119:63--"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts."

John 10:16--"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

 

[John of Japan]

Fundamental Baptist Fellowship

Okay, I'm finally back to introduce the Fundamental Baptist Fellowship (FBF). I thought maybe Squire would do this, but hey, he's a busy man!

This may be the oldest Fundamentalist fellowship. It traces its roots to the "Fundamentalist Fellowship of Northern Baptists" which was started in 1920. These men came out of the Northern Baptist Convention with the Conservative Baptists when liberals took control of that convention, then the out of the Conservative Baptists when it would not recognize Baptist World Mission, a Fundamentalist alternative to the Conservative Baptist board.

Constituents: This is primarily a Northern and Western US group. FBF pastors usually have links to some of the giants of Northern Fundamentalism in the 1940's through the 1970's, such as Monroe Parker, Richard Clearwaters, Myron Cedarholm, Earle E. Matteson, G. Archer Weniger (and his brothers), Wayne Van Gelderen, Sr., Ed Nelson, etc. I am privileged to have known these men I just mentioned, in particular Dr. Parker. Drs. Van Gelderen and Nelson helped get my wife and me together. I was grilled extensively by Dr. Weniger in my BWM candidate committee, and they said I was sweating and as white as a sheet when I came out! What an honor (and I deserved it)!

Schools: Bob Jones U., Maranatha BBC, Northland BBC, Central Baptist Theological Seminary, Calvary Baptist Theological Seminary (where my son goes), Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary. In my view, FBFers are the most scholarly and educated of all IFB groups.

Numbers: I'm not sure. Anywhere from 500 to 1000, at a guess. Squire, do you know?

Stand on versions: Not KJVO. Many FBFers would be KJV-preferred, but many would use other versions, with the NKJV or the NASV being preferred.

Stand on separation: Strong separatists in the mold of the original Bible Baptist Union of the 1920's.

Mission board: The most common board supported by FBF pastors is Baptist World Mission, through which I have the honor of being sent.

Website: www.f-b-f.org

 

[Mexdeaf]

If nobody else does the BBF within a couple of weeks I will. I have been waiting for someone who graduated from BBC or one of the associated schools to do so. I am a missionary with the BBF but not a grad from one of their schools so I hesitate to speak for all those good men.

 

[John of Japan]

If nobody else does the BBF within a couple of weeks I will. I have been waiting for someone who graduated from BBC or one of the associated schools to do so. I am a missionary with the BBF but not a grad from one of their schools so I hesitate to speak for all those good men.

Okay, Bro. Mexdeaf. I'll wait on the BBF for awhile more. For myself, I don't know enough about current events in the BBF to do a good job.

 

[4His_glory]

I was grilled extensively by Dr. Weniger in my BWM candidate committee, and they said I was sweating and as white as a sheet when I came out! What an honor (and I deserved it)!

lol. I had your current field director, Dr. Walton, on my doctrinal committee, alone with Dr. Brooks. I really wasn't that nervous at all. I don't remember who was on my candidate committee.

My experience of the FBF is that they are cut from a wide swath of fundamentalism. Baptist World Mission seems to be the same, and I appreciate that. They are not focusing on one "camp".

 

[bapmom]

I want to thank you too for this thread.

Im relatively new to the land of IFB, so this information is interesting to me. I have memories of my grandfather telling me stories that if I had been older would have made more sense to me now. He used to belong or have ties to a church where the Wenigers were, and something happened. But I remember that when I went to Maranatha, Doc Weniger knew my family. I was not ever really sure why or how. I just keep thinking I should know more but I somehow missed it along the way.

I knew some of the history from an older preacher man here in our church who was with some of those old-time preachers. If he were on this board oh the stories he could tell!

But Ive always thought of "Fundamentalist" as just meaning one who adheres to the fundamental, old-time teachings of the Bible. Ive had a hard time understanding why some call themselves Fundamentalists, and others are Conservatives, and others are......etc, etc. Because when you ask me Im a conservative fundamentalist who fellowships with people. lol

Rhet,
Im sorry I couldn't answer your questions myself. We just don't get taught any of this stuff anywhere. I had a Baptist history course at MBBC but they didn't go all the way up to when IFB started.

 

[John of Japan]

lol. I had your current field director, Dr. Walton, on my doctrinal committee, alone with Dr. Brooks. I really wasn't that nervous at all. I don't remember who was on my candidate committee.

My experience of the FBF is that they are cut from a wide swath of fundamentalism. Baptist World Mission seems to be the same, and I appreciate that. They are not focusing on one "camp".

Boy did you have it easy! Just those two men? And both of them good and kind men. I had about eight, as I remember, and they were old line FBF Fundamentalists all! :laugh:

True, the missionaries joining BWM nowadays are from all over. But trust me, the BWM board is pretty much FBF. :thumbs: