Futurism an invention of the Jesuits?

[HankD]

Very good, you have answered your own question of when "death" ends.

You keep assuming physical death. Prove the death we receive from Adam is physical. Paul quotes from Ps. 8. Here is what Gill says regarding Ps. 8:6.

Jesus Christ experienced a pysical death and was resurrected in the same body in which He died. He was the "firstfruits", we, the remaining harvest will follow. Jesus was resurrected in a flesh and bone body, we shall be resurrected in a flesh and bone body.

The harvest that follows is the same kind as the "firstfruits".
One doesn't harvest corn as the firstfruit and then return with tomatos at the remainder of the harvest.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

1 Corinthians 15

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.​

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

It is because Christ has accomplished this and death is destroyed we never die:

Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

True, presently our spirit goes to be with the Lord but our bodies are also to be redeemed as a future event:

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.​

You say there is no more sin after the New H&E. Is. 65:17 speaks of the creation of the New H&E then in verse 20 we read this:

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Please explain this.

I have said in previous posts that the "day of the Lord" (IMV) starts with the Tribulation includes the Millenium and extends into the eternal state.

It is evident from the language of Isaiah 65-67 passage that he is making reference to the physical aspect of the coming of the new heavens and new earth during the Millenium (where sin and death, howbeit diminished will still exist) when God will fulfill the promises to the earthly nation to Israel which will then be followed by a renovation of fire when death, the last enemy will be conquered.

Looks as if they are invited to drink of the water.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

That water comes from Rev 22:1.

Revelation 22:17 is a present tense invitation to anyone who is reading the book.

So you agree the New Jerusalem is the Lambs wife/Bride. Since the Lambs wife/Bride is the Church and the Church is a present reality then it is quite evident the New Jerusalem is also a present reality and since the New Jerusalem is found in the New H&E that makes the New H&E also a present reality.

There are several aspects of each of the phases which the earthly manifestation of the kingdom of God passes through over the ages and then a component of finality called the "day of the Lord" wherein all is completed and death the final enemy is destroyed.

1 Corinthians 15

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.​

You answered no to this question:

Are Rev 21:3 and 2 Cor. 6:16 speaking of two separate Temples?​

Since the Corinthians Temple is not physical and was in exsistence in Paul's day then so is the Temple of Rev 21:3.

Yes, in a different aspect. This was answered in my previous response.​

I don't know.

Because physical death was not the topic of Paul, Jesus' or the Prophets concern.​

Then why did Jesus Christ die a physical death and then resurrect in a physical body?​

HankD​

 

[asterisktom]

Then why did Jesus Christ die a physical death and then resurrect in a physical body?

The things that are literal and physical are the very things that needed to have been literal and physical:

Incarnation: "Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil" Heb. 2:14
Crucifixion: "Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?” Luke 24:26

The same goes for the resurrection. It was part of the necessary requirement of bringing many sons to glory (Heb 2) and that He could be both just and justifier of Him who has faith in Jesus (Rom. 3, I think).

 

[HankD]

The things that are literal and physical are the very things that needed to have been literal and physical:

Agreed, including the literal resurrection of our bodies, Christ being the firstfruits.

HankD

 

[lastday]

Lastday

HankD,

I noticed the reference in your last post to the resurrected Christ as the "firstfruit"
of those who have died. I'm sure you have noticed the 144,000 Jews of Rev.14:1-5 are identified as the "firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb".

But they will be the "firstfruit of the living" taken bodily to heaven on the day Christ comes in glory with all the saints. Preterists cannot fathom
this as any sort of a literal, physical "redemption of men from among men on the earth".

The Lamb will "take them to heaven" on the first or 2nd day of the full moon on a Saturday/Sunday weekend day, IMO, during the year of 2033/5794.
I don't claim to know this is the year for certain;
but it will see a total lunar red-blood eclipse at Passover time and Tishri 15/16 of the Hebrew year 5794.

Today is the 3rd day of the Feast of Tabernacles. In 2033, the first day will be a Saturday. The Feast may begin on Tuesday or Thursday or Saturday.
It begins on the 15th of the month...on the first or 2nd day of the full moon cycle. And I think this fact is a part of why we cannot know for certain
on which day Christ will appear.

This morning I noticed the moon was still full on this third day of the Feast of Tabernacles. It was waning in the west just as it will do, except that
it will turn bloody-red for 3.5 hours from 5 AM 23 years from this weekend...with the 15th on a Saturday (Oct.8) and 16th on a Sunday (Oct.9).
Because of 14 extra days past the 7-year Solar Cycle of days (by comparing the Hebrew calendar with our calendar) it will be Oct.8 in that year
instead of Sept.25.
Mel

 

[HankD]

HankD,

I noticed the reference in your last post to the resurrected Christ as the "firstfruit"
of those who have died. I'm sure you have noticed the 144,000 Jews of Rev.14:1-5 are identified as the "firstfruit unto both God and the Lamb".

But they will be the "firstfruit of the living" taken bodily to heaven on the day Christ comes in glory with all the saints. Preterists cannot fathom
this as any sort of a literal, physical "redemption of men from among men on the earth".

The Lamb will "take them to heaven" on the first or 2nd day of the full moon on a Saturday/Sunday weekend day, IMO, during the year of 2033/5794.
I don't claim to know this is the year for certain;
but it will see a total lunar red-blood eclipse at Passover time and Tishri 15/16 of the Hebrew year 5794.

Today is the 3rd day of the Feast of Tabernacles. In 2033, the first day will be a Saturday. The Feast may begin on Tuesday or Thursday or Saturday.
It begins on the 15th of the month...on the first or 2nd day of the full moon cycle. And I think this fact is a part of why we cannot know for certain
on which day Christ will appear.

This morning I noticed the moon was still full on this third day of the Feast of Tabernacles. It was waning in the west just as it will do, except that
it will turn bloody-red for 3.5 hours from 5 AM 23 years from this weekend...with the 15th on a Saturday (Oct.8) and 16th on a Sunday (Oct.9).
Because of 14 extra days past the 7-year Solar Cycle of days (by comparing the Hebrew calendar with our calendar) it will be Oct.8 in that year
instead of Sept.25.
Mel

That's an amazing analysis mel.

HankD

 

[lastday]

Hank,

Thank you so much!
There's another reason we can't "know the exact day" in advance of seeing it occur.
The Gregorian calendar reflects 2556.75 days in a seven-year period for the Endtime.
The Hebrew calendar reflects 2569 days which is 12.25 days more than the Gregorian.

If there was exactly 365 days to the year, the difference would be exactly 14 days.
But there will be two leap-year days between the year 2026 and 2032 (2028; 2032).
Only God knows whether Jesus "brings all the saints with Him" on Saturday or Sunday.

The first day of Feast of Tabernacles will occur on one of three days of a full moon.
About half the time it's on day one and half on day two; or it may fall on day three.
Only Jesus could know the multiple reasons for our not knowing the day in advance.
Mel

 

[Logos1]

Ditto Hank

That's an amazing analysis mel.

HankD

I think Hank summed this up pretty well--

"This morning I noticed the moon was still full on this third day of the Feast of Tabernacles. It was waning in the west just as it will do, except that
it will turn bloody-red for 3.5 hours from 5 AM 23 years from this weekend...with the 15th on a Saturday (Oct.8) and 16th on a Sunday (Oct.9).
Because of 14 extra days past the 7-year Solar Cycle of days (by comparing the Hebrew calendar with our calendar) it will be Oct.8 in that year
instead of Sept.25."

I'm a sucker for a rigorous Second Coming dating analysis and if there is a hall of fame for such things I'm nominating this one...I'm just saying.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Why thank you Mel!

 

[Grasshopper]

HankD

Jesus Christ experienced a pysical death and was resurrected in the same body in which He died. He was the "firstfruits", we, the remaining harvest will follow. Jesus was resurrected in a flesh and bone body, we shall be resurrected in a flesh and bone body.

The harvest that follows is the same kind as the "firstfruits".
One doesn't harvest corn as the firstfruit and then return with tomatos at the remainder of the harvest

.

Those firstfruits that were to follow are identified for us:

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

They are symbolically called the 144,000:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

Where does Paul get this quote: Death is swallowed up in victory

and what is the nature of that death he is referring to?

I have said in previous posts that the "day of the Lord" (IMV) starts with the Tribulation includes the Millenium and extends into the eternal state.

Yes, but you have never proven it from scripture.

It is evident from the language of Isaiah 65-67 passage that he is making reference to the physical aspect of the coming of the new heavens and new earth during the Millenium (where sin and death, howbeit diminished will still exist) when God will fulfill the promises to the earthly nation to Israel which will then be followed by a renovation of fire when death, the last enemy will be conquered.

Double speak. You said death ends at the coming of the New H&E, now you say death does exist in the New H&E during the MK. Yet you have also stated the New H&E does not begin until the end of the MK. It is almost pointless to try to discuss these things with you because your story changes with every post. You seem to make it up as you go.

Revelation 22:17 is a present tense invitation to anyone who is reading the book.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So you say anyone who was reading this was invited to drink from the water of life. But where does this same water come from? It comes from Rev. 22:1:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The river is found in the New Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem is found in the New Heavens and Earth. So you are now inviting people to drink from the water of life that is found in a place that does not exist yet and will not for at least 1000 years. Do you not see your problem?

Then why did Jesus Christ die a physical death and then resurrect in a physical body?

As a sign:

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.



http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/IVP-NT/Matt/Jesus-Opponents-Seek-Sign
Jesus' Opponents Seek a Sign


This passage offers some significant lessons, both for Matthew's first audience and for us today.
Asking for a sign after the Lord has already revealed himself is testing him (16:1; compare Ex 17:7; Ps 78:18-20). Pharisees and Sadducees were generally at odds, joining forces only under external duress (compare, for example, Jos. Life 21-22); Matthew reports that Jesus' mission was one such case of duress (3:7).

This passage refers not to those who genuinely fear God yet ask for signs as an assurance of God's promise (Gen 15:6, 8; Judg 6:17, 36-39; 2 Kings 20:8), but to those who seek grounds to disbelieve. Religious leaders had challenged Jesus after other miracles (Mt 15:1-20); the Gospel's first reference to testing (4:1; compare 6:13; 19:3; 22:35) may suggest that the devil is the theological source of their opposition. Now they ignore the signs of a prophet (15:21-39) and demand instead a sign from heaven (16:1). A sign from heaven probably means a sign in the heavens, like those that many people believed presaged the fall of Jerusalem (Jos. War 6.288-91) and the end of the age (compare 24:29-31; 27:45, 51-53). Presumably these leaders ask Jesus to predict a sign in the sky-which essentially reduces them to the level of astrologers or diviners, something forbidden in the Hebrew Bible (Deut 18:10). The religious leaders here contrast starkly with some pagan astrologers who came to worship King Jesus (2:1-12)!

Jesus is giving them a clearer sign than a sign in heaven would be (16:3-4). Jesus' questioners could predict many celestial phenomena with no supernatural inspiration at all; a red sky in the morning, for example, meant that Mediterranean winds from the west would be bringing rain. But Jesus was not interested in predicting events in the sky or using such events to predict the future; they were overlooking an explicit sign that was nearer at hand. The sinfulness of that generation could itself constitute one sign, for many Jewish people understood that a sinful generation would immediately precede the coming of God's kingdom (CD 20.14-15; 2 Baruch 26:12; m. Sota 9:15). The description of that generation resembles Moses' complaint against Israel (Deut 32:5), a generation that had repeatedly tested God in the wilderness and rejected his prophet Moses (Ps 78:18-20).
Jesus' own ministry and resurrection constituted the decisive sign to that generation (16:4). The resurrection was an end-time event (Dan 12:2); Jesus' resurrection was a clear indication that the kingdom time was at hand (Mt 12:39-40).

 

[HankD]

.

Those firstfruits that were to follow are identified for us:

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

They are symbolically called the 144,000:

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Yes these are the Jewish firstfruits... The Jew first and then the Greek (helena - gentile).

Where does Paul get this quote: Death is swallowed up in victory
and what is the nature of that death he is referring to?

He received it from the Holy Spirit who inspired him to say:

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

The nations of the world still rule.
We still have funeral parlors.
There is still pain, sorrow, crying and death even among believers.
Therefore death is still a reality and an on going enemy, which though He conquered by His resurrection has yet to be detroyed in its finality when we also shall be resurrected in a body like His and then we shall be like Him.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Yes, but you have never proven it from scripture.

And you have never proven from the scripture that the Second Coming of Christ happened in AD70.

Double speak. You said death ends at the coming of the New H&E, now you say death does exist in the New H&E during the MK. Yet you have also stated the New H&E does not begin until the end of the MK. It is almost pointless to try to discuss these things with you because your story changes with every post. You seem to make it up as you go.

No, I said and have always said that there are phases to the end-times. If you (or other preterists) can say that Titus was some sort of "invisible appearing" of Christ in AD70, you have a credibility gap and an orwellian double-think that is bigger than any futurist that I know including the "left-behind" folks.

Rev 22:17

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

So you say anyone who was reading this was invited to drink from the water of life. But where does this same water come from? It comes from Rev. 22:1:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

The river is found in the New Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem is found in the New Heavens and Earth. So you are now inviting people to drink from the water of life that is found in a place that does not exist yet and will not for at least 1000 years. Do you not see your problem?

No.

Why christ died...

As a sign:

Huh, Come on grasshopper you know the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:​

He died for our sins, He rose again in a visible flesh and bone body as the firstfruits of the resurrection. We (believeing Jews and Gentiles) are the remainder of the harvest.
I repeat, if one harvests corn as the firstfruits, the remainder of the harvest is also corn and not tomatos.

Christ rose in a flesh and bone body. He was the firstfruits, we will follow and rise in flesh and bone bodies.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

He received it from the Holy Spirit who inspired him to say:

1 Corinthians 15
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.​

You keep avoiding the question. Paul is quoting from an OT passage. Search out what that passage is and see what the nature of that death is.

The nations of the world still rule.
We still have funeral parlors.
There is still pain, sorrow, crying and death even among believers.
Therefore death is still a reality and an on going enemy, which though He conquered by His resurrection has yet to be detroyed in its finality when we also shall be resurrected in a body like His and then we shall be like Him.

I can only assume now you intentionally keep missing the point.

And you have never proven from the scripture that the Second Coming of Christ happened in AD70.

Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand

No, I said and have always said that there are phases to the end-times. If you (or other preterists) can say that Titus was some sort of "invisible appearing" of Christ in AD70, you have a credibility gap and an orwellian double-think that is bigger than any futurist that I know including the "left-behind" folks.

Please tell me where I said Titus was an invisible coming.....yea, didn't think so.

No.

No you don't see your problem or no the water of Rev. 21:14 is not from the river of Rev. 21:1. Or do you wish to just ignore the entire subject?

Why christ died...

Here is the question you asked:

Then why did Jesus Christ die a physical death and then resurrect in a physical body?

You knew that and you knew the context in which you asked it. Why are you playing games?


One last time, does the 70th week of Daniel come at the end of the 1000 year MK?

Will those in hell continue to sin throughout all of eternity?

 

[HankD]

You keep avoiding the question. Paul is quoting from an OT passage. Search out what that passage is and see what the nature of that death is.
I can only assume now you intentionally keep missing the point.

No I haven't and I have said this before at one point in time. Whether it was to you I don't remember IMV there is the translation of the saints before the tribulation and then the general resurrection after the Millenium. This could apply to either as I have also said that yes, there is imagery in the OT prophecies. You interpret one way, I another.

However this passage pobably refers to the "harpazo" (Being caught up) of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 when we shall meet Him in the air.

Mat 16:27

For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

You are quoting from two different passages. One context is "some standing here", the other is "this generation". Both of these passages have also been discussed.

2 Peter 1 (Peter, James and John were witnesses to The glory of his Majestic Coming.

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.​

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

"This generation: (in the context of Matthew 24):

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.​

This is the generation. those who see these things in verses 29-31.​

Jas 5:8

Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

The Coming of the Lord is always drawing near. It is still drawing near.

Rev 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand

This is what will happen at the coming of the Lord:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

"Shortly" therefore is a relative term to the eternal God. We have not seen these things therefore He has yet to come.

Please tell me where I said Titus was an invisible coming.....yea, didn't think so.

Please go back and read what I said. I used the subjunctive clause "if you..." then I also included "or other preterist".

But now that you mention it (since you have asked several explanations of my point of view) please let me know what these passages means in terms of the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the Mount of Olives (from whence He left).

Acts 1

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;​

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

No you don't see your problem or no the water of Rev. 21:14 is not from the river of Rev. 21:1. Or do you wish to just ignore the entire subject?

I'm not ignoring anything. You asked me concerning the "water" and the invitation and I answered it. Then you asked me about a problem you perceived with that answer and if I saw a problem as well and I honestly answered your question directly with the word "no".

Then why did Jesus Christ die a physical death and then resurrect in a physical body?

You knew that and you knew the context in which you asked it. Why are you playing games?

Yes I did and I'm not playing games, I was serious just as you are when you ask your questions.

One last time, does the 70th week of Daniel come at the end of the 1000 year MK?

I'm not sure yet, after all there are things which both of us have admitted to not knowing (yet).

The Hebrew of Daniel 9:24 and the phrase "70 weeks " is SHABYIM SH'BIM.
Actually the Hebrew words without the vowel points (which are under the letters) are exactly the same. SH'BM SH'BM. The middle letter indicated by the apostrophe is the Hebrew letter AYIN (a gutural breathing sound) which in and of itself has the numerical value of 70.

The vowel points are not inspired but added by the Masoretic scribes, so depending on the vowel pointings this phrase could have several meanings.

That along with the somewhat unusual repetition of SH'BM SH'BM I don't want to give a guess. I will, for my own curiosity look up some rabbinical interpretations. Although I have formally studied both biblical (mostly) and modern Hebrew this construction in Daniel seems out of the oridinary (to me) and I never noticed it before.

Will those in hell continue to sin throughout all of eternity?

No.


HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

No I haven't and I have said this before at one point in time. Whether it was to you I don't remember IMV there is the translation of the saints before the tribulation and then the general resurrection after the Millenium. This could apply to either as I have also said that yes, there is imagery in the OT prophecies. You interpret one way, I another

.

Non answer to my question. I will ask one more time then if I still don't get an answer I will just assume you don't want to answer for fear your system will crumble in front of you. Paul quotes 2 OT passages in 1 Corithians 15:

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Where is Paul quoting from and what is the nature of death these OT passages speak of? Physical?

You are quoting from two different passages. One context is "some standing here", the other is "this generation". Both of these passages have also been discussed.

You said this:

And you have never proven from the scripture that the Second Coming of Christ happened in AD70.

I was merely giving a few of the passages that support my view. I'm still waiting on yours.

The Coming of the Lord is always drawing near. It is still drawing near.

I'm no greek scholar but in Young's literal translation it reads:

Jas 5:8 be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh;

This is what will happen at the coming of the Lord:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Once again, I quote a non full-preterist:

Adam Clarke


Rev 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds - This relates to his coming to execute judgment on the enemies of his religion; perhaps to his coming to destroy Jerusalem, as he was to be particularly manifested to them that pierced him, which must mean the incredulous and rebellious Jews.
And all kindreds of the earth - Πασαι αἱ φυλαι της γης· All the tribes of the land. By this the Jewish people are most evidently intended, and therefore the whole verse may be understood as predicting the destruction of the Jews; and is a presumptive proof that the Apocalypse was written before the final overthrow of the Jewish state.
Even so, Amen - Ναι, αμην· Yea, Amen. It is true, so be it. Our Lord will come and execute judgment on the Jews and Gentiles. This the Jews and Romans particularly felt.

"Shortly" therefore is a relative term to the eternal God. We have not seen these things therefore He has yet to come.

Ciricular reasoning. It didn't happen the way you think its suppose to happen therefore shortly doesn't really mean shortly.

But now that you mention it (since you have asked several explanations of my point of view) please let me know what these passages means in terms of the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to the Mount of Olives (from whence He left).

Acts 1

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;​

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...on-acts-1&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61

I'm not ignoring anything. You asked me concerning the "water" and the invitation and I answered it. Then you asked me about a problem you perceived with that answer and if I saw a problem as well and I honestly answered your question directly with the word "no".

How could those readers who you say are invited to drink the water, drink that water when it is found in the New Jerusalem and the New H&E which you deny has come?

I'm not sure yet, after all there are things which both of us have admitted to not knowing (yet).

The Hebrew of Daniel 9:24 and the phrase "70 weeks " is SHABYIM SH'BIM.
Actually the Hebrew words without the vowel points (which are under the letters) are exactly the same. SH'BM SH'BM. The middle letter indicated by the apostrophe is the Hebrew letter AYIN (a gutural breathing sound) which in and of itself has the numerical value of 70.

The vowel points are not inspired but added by the Masoretic scribes, so depending on the vowel pointings this phrase could have several meanings.

That along with the somewhat unusual repetition of SH'BM SH'BM I don't want to give a guess. I will, for my own curiosity look up some rabbinical interpretations. Although I have formally studied both biblical (mostly) and modern Hebrew this construction in Daniel seems out of the oridinary (to me) and I never noticed it before.

It's quite simple, Daniel says this:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Peter says this:

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You have stated that 2 Peter is fulfilled at the end of the MK. If this is true then isn't Daniel 9:24 also fulfilled at that time as well? If not then you must explain what the difference is between the righteousness of Daniel and that of 2 Peter. No need to check Hebrew scholars or Masoretic text just a simple answer will do.

No.

Interesting, you believe those in hell will no longer sin. I wonder if other futurist agree with you. So those in heaven and those in hell both have the ability to never sin again. Strange doctrines some will invent to support their presupposition that sin comes to an end.

 

[HankD]

.

Non answer to my question. I will ask one more time then if I still don't get an answer I will just assume you don't want to answer for fear your system will crumble in front of you. Paul quotes 2 OT passages in 1 Corithians 15:

1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Where is Paul quoting from and what is the nature of death these OT passages speak of? Physical?

I answered:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 My assumption is that it is from Isaiah 25:8 and speaks of those who undergo the "harpazo" of 1 Thessalonians 4;17.

And you did not answer my inquiry concerning Acts 1:9-11 Concerning the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ from heaven - are you afraid your postion will "crumble before your eyes?" (pardon the pun?).

You said this:

And you have never proven from the scripture that the Second Coming of Christ happened in AD70.

I was merely giving a few of the passages that support my view. I'm still waiting on yours.

There are none to support the AD70 "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ when we shall meet Him in the air. You must depend on your view (and Adam Clarke's view) of assigning meaning to what you perceive as imagery.

Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.​

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Matthew 23

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

I don't think the Jews in Jerusalem were saying this as Titus hacked them to death and defiled the Temple.

I'm no greek scholar but in Young's literal translation it reads:

Jas 5:8 be patient, ye also; establish your hearts, because the presence of the Lord hath drawn nigh;

I honestly have no problem with this passage, Greek language or not. He meant what He said and I understand it to be true as well in the 21st century in the eternal plan of God.

Once again, I quote a non full-preterist:

Adam Clarke [sniped]

της γης does not necessarily mean the "land" of the rebellious Jews as later in the Book of Revelation all languages and nations of the earth are included in the tribulation which is to try all them that dwell upon the earth.

Ciricular reasoning. It didn't happen the way you think its suppose to happen therefore shortly doesn't really mean shortly.

Like every eye shall see Him doesn't mean every eye shall see Him?

RE: Adam Clarke: After reading this disertation, again one must depend on what I consider questionable redefining of the literal to secondary or allegorical language to come to the conclusion that "to see" in His view is synonymous to "sprirtual discernment".

Luke uses 5 different words pertaining to "sight", one of which is used exclusively of sight with the eyes.

Had it been one word only then perhaps ther might be a possibility of his supposition.

Acts 1

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;​

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He also makes the assertion that the promise of His coming was to the first century church. Since you quote the works of men might I remind you that the works of other men, those who intersected the time boundaries of the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem shortly thereafter and beyond : Clement, Papias, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Barnabas, Justin Martyr,Tertullian, Cyprian, and Lactantius to name only a few, knew nothing of a preterist return of Christ in a preterist venue but on the contrary looked for a physical, literal and bodily return of Christ followed by a resurrection of the bodies of believers, some also believing in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth:

Papias-Pupil of John the Apostle (AD. 70-155)
FRAGMENTS OF PAPIAS FROM THE EXPOSITION OF THE ORACLES OF THE LORD
"Those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven SHALL go there, others SHALL enjoy the delights of Paradise, and others SHALL possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour WILL BE seen, according as they shall be worthy who see Him.There will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth"

Irenaeus-Student of John the Apostles's pupil Polycarp (AD. 120-202) AGAINST HERESIES, BOOK V, XXX But he indicates the number of the name now, that WHEN this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: ..But when this Antichrist SHALL HAVE devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord WILL COME from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom"

How could those readers who you say are invited to drink the water, drink that water when it is found in the New Jerusalem and the New H&E which you deny has come?

Repeat, it is a present tense promise to those who are reading the Book of Revelation.It is the water Christ spoke of, the eternal Spirit of God, He is not limited to time or place:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

John 7

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)​

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for theydrank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.​

It's quite simple, Daniel says this:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Peter says this:

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

You have stated that 2 Peter is fulfilled at the end of the MK. If this is true then isn't Daniel 9:24 also fulfilled at that time as well? If not then you must explain what the difference is between the righteousness of Daniel and that of 2 Peter. No need to check Hebrew scholars or Masoretic text just a simple answer will do.

Perhaps for you a "simple" answer will do. It's has to do with my method of hermeneutics.

I read the text, perhaps several English texts. If there is obvious idiom or a possibility of imagery I go to the original languages, then perhaps lexicons, rabbinical writings, chuch fathers and commentaries. So, no, I am not presently ready to give a "simple" answer concerning Daniel 9:24 because it is not a "simple" text and is evidently idiomatic.

In addition you seem to have quite an affinity for Adam Clarke and, in fact, don't seem willing to put his views into your own words put shuffle me off to his website. Allow me similar exercise of soul liberty as you allow yourself.

Interesting, you believe those in hell will no longer sin. I wonder if other futurist agree with you. So those in heaven and those in hell both have the ability to never sin again. Strange doctrines some will invent to support their presupposition that sin comes to an end.

Does Adam Clarke have any disertation(s) proving that those in hell will continue to sin? Or please show me scripture yourself which you believe teaches that definitivley states tha sin will go on being committed by men for eternity and I will look at it.

HankD

 

[lastday]

Lastday

HankD,

I believe you have a much stronger case by noting that Rev.1:1 uses the
word Tachos (#5034) which can mean either "swiftly or soon". But this is in
reference to all the things in Revelation related to Christ's second coming.

On the other hand, in the five places in Revelation where Tachu is used
(#5035) the word means "swiftly, without delay" and refers to events of
the 12-Hour Day on which Christ comes. It is used by Jesus four times in
Revelation of His coming "swiftly". Rev.3:11; Rev.22:7,12,20. (Rev.11:14).

It is only in the (3 or 4) "days when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"
that Christ is coming suddenly! Because that is when "God's mystery was finished"!! "It was finished in the days when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound"...
i.e., when the Two Witnesses (Prophets) are killed by the Beast!!!
Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7.

Because of 3.5 days, no one can know in advance if Christ will appear on a
Saturday or a Sunday...the 3rd or 4th day of their wait to be caught up to
heaven! They will be caught up on the last day...as Jesus promised for all
Believers!! I am a supporter of the view that this day is a 12-Hour Day!!!
Mel

 

[RAdam]

The righteousness Christ brought in is that which He established through His obedience to the law of God. It is by this rightousnes, referred to by NT authors as the righteousness of God, whereby the elect are justified in the sight of God. This righteousness is revealed in the gospel of Christ.

The righteousness of which Peter spoke is not imputed righteousness. He is not speaking of individuals, but of the new heavens and earth that we, according to His promise, look for. According to the context, the new heavens and earth are physical. I know preterists allegorize these scriptures, but they have no right to do so seeing that Peter clearly points to the physical creation and its destruction, not the Jewish religion and its destruction. The new heavens and earth, further spoken of by John in Revelation 21 and 22, is described as being a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness." He is speaking of the character of the coming world. It is a place wherein is only holiness, righteousness, peace, and glory. The present physical creation has been subjected to the curse of sin and is thus a place wherein dwells wickedness, cruelty, sin, ungodly lust, etc. The new heavens and earth will be different. This will be a place of perfection, holiness, righteousness. Nothing wicked or sinful will exist in that state. It will be a place devoid of suffering, toil, pain, crying, death, etc. It will be a place of glory and perfection, a place of rest and comfort for all of God's people, and that for eternity.

 

[HankD]

The righteousness Christ brought in is that which He established through His obedience to the law of God. It is by this rightousnes, referred to by NT authors as the righteousness of God, whereby the elect are justified in the sight of God. This righteousness is revealed in the gospel of Christ.

The righteousness of which Peter spoke is not imputed righteousness. He is not speaking of individuals, but of the new heavens and earth that we, according to His promise, look for. According to the context, the new heavens and earth are physical. I know preterists allegorize these scriptures, but they have no right to do so seeing that Peter clearly points to the physical creation and its destruction, not the Jewish religion and its destruction. The new heavens and earth, further spoken of by John in Revelation 21 and 22, is described as being a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness." He is speaking of the character of the coming world. It is a place wherein is only holiness, righteousness, peace, and glory. The present physical creation has been subjected to the curse of sin and is thus a place wherein dwells wickedness, cruelty, sin, ungodly lust, etc. The new heavens and earth will be different. This will be a place of perfection, holiness, righteousness. Nothing wicked or sinful will exist in that state. It will be a place devoid of suffering, toil, pain, crying, death, etc. It will be a place of glory and perfection, a place of rest and comfort for all of God's people, and that for eternity.

I agree.

Until then we have the present curse of funeral parlors, cemeteries, hospitals, jails, war, bloodshed... on and on...

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

=HankD;1594800]I answered:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 My assumption is that it is from Isaiah 25:8 and speaks of those who undergo the "harpazo" of 1 Thessalonians 4;17.

Paul was not quoting himself. 1 Thess 4:17 sounds nothing like 1 Cor. 15:54.

Yes he is quoting from Is 25:8 and Hos. 13:14. Now for the 3rd time, what is the nature of death described in these OT passages?

And you did not answer my inquiry concerning Acts 1:9-11 Concerning the visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ from heaven - are you afraid your postion will "crumble before your eyes?" (pardon the pun?).

I did answer in providing an indepth discussion of Acts 1:9-11 from a full-preterist position. Apparently you didn't bother to click it. Try this time:

http://www.eschatology.org/index.ph...on-acts-1&catid=91:study-by-passage&Itemid=61

There are none to support the AD70 "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ when we shall meet Him in the air. You must depend on your view (and Adam Clarke's view) of assigning meaning to what you perceive as imagery.

Sure there are, as even most futurist scholars admit there was a 1st century anticipation of the Lord's return in their lifetime. Why? Because they taught it!

Luke 21

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.​

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

You just keep quoting verses that even non-preterist admit are speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem.

John Gill


and in the stars; they shall fall from heaven, as in Mat_24:29 and so the Ethiopic version reads here: all which, as it may be understood in a literal sense, so it may likewise in figurative and mystical one, and be interpreted of the changes there should be in the Jewish state; See Gill on Mat_24:29. So the Jewish writers (h) interpret the sun, the light, the moon, and stars, in Ecc_12:2. By the "sun" they understand the kingdom of the house of David; by "the light", the law; by "the moon", the sanhedrim; and by the stars, the Rabbins; and the same seem to be designed by the stars here:
and upon the earth distress of nations; upon the land of Israel; in the several nations and countries belonging to it; as Galilee of the nations, Judea, and the region beyond Jordan, shall be in great distress:
with perplexity; of mind, not knowing what to do, which way to go, or step to take; the Syriac version, instead of it, reads "clapping, or pressing of the hands"; which is done by persons, when in an agony and great distress:

Even Wesley understood it, and he would not be confused with a preterist in any way:


Luk 21:25 And there shall be - Before the great day, which was typified by the destruction of Jerusalem: signs - Different from those mentioned Luk_21:11, &c. Mat_24:29; Mar_13:24.

He also makes the assertion that the promise of His coming was to the first century church. Since you quote the works of men might I remind you that the works of other men, those who intersected the time boundaries of the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem shortly thereafter and beyond : Clement, Papias, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Barnabas, Justin Martyr,Tertullian, Cyprian, and Lactantius to name only a few, knew nothing of a preterist return of Christ in a preterist venue but on the contrary looked for a physical, literal and bodily return of Christ followed by a resurrection of the bodies of believers, some also believing in a literal 1000 year reign of Christ on earth:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html

Repeat, it is a present tense promise to those who are reading the Book of Revelation.It is the water Christ spoke of, the eternal Spirit of God, He is not limited to time or place:

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

John 7

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)​

1 Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for theydrank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.​

Perhaps for you a "simple" answer will do. It's has to do with my method of hermeneutics.

It flows from the throne:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

I read the text, perhaps several English texts. If there is obvious idiom or a possibility of imagery I go to the original languages, then perhaps lexicons, rabbinical writings, chuch fathers and commentaries. So, no, I am not presently ready to give a "simple" answer concerning Daniel 9:24 because it is not a "simple" text and is evidently idiomatic.

Nobody else seems to have trouble putting it into their eschatological framework whether they be futurist or preterist. I think you've been shown a problem in your interpretation and now having a hard time staying consistent.

In addition you seem to have quite an affinity for Adam Clarke and, in fact, don't seem willing to put his views into your own words put shuffle me off to his website. Allow me similar exercise of soul liberty as you allow yourself.

Well since Adam Clarke died in 1892 I don't think I posted his web address, however if you have been there please post it. Had you actually gone to the one I posted you would have known better.

Does Adam Clarke have any disertation(s) proving that those in hell will continue to sin? Or please show me scripture yourself which you believe teaches that definitivley states tha sin will go on being committed by men for eternity and I will look at it

.

I don't know what Clarke taught but I find this amazing. You must believe then that the lost man's nature will be so changed that he is unable to sin in his rebellion against God once cast into hell. Do the angels and Satan also have this changed nature? I would love for you to point to any scripture that teaches this. Is it the "end of sin" passages? Are there any scholars you know of who hold such a view?

I think you are grasping at straws in order to hold to your literalistic view of certain scriptures.

 

[Grasshopper]

The righteousness Christ brought in is that which He established through His obedience to the law of God. It is by this rightousnes, referred to by NT authors as the righteousness of God, whereby the elect are justified in the sight of God. This righteousness is revealed in the gospel of Christ.

The righteousness of which Peter spoke is not imputed righteousness. He is not speaking of individuals, but of the new heavens and earth that we, according to His promise, look for. According to the context, the new heavens and earth are physical. I know preterists allegorize these scriptures, but they have no right to do so seeing that Peter clearly points to the physical creation and its destruction, not the Jewish religion and its destruction. The new heavens and earth, further spoken of by John in Revelation 21 and 22, is described as being a place "wherein dwelleth righteousness." He is speaking of the character of the coming world. It is a place wherein is only holiness, righteousness, peace, and glory. The present physical creation has been subjected to the curse of sin and is thus a place wherein dwells wickedness, cruelty, sin, ungodly lust, etc. The new heavens and earth will be different. This will be a place of perfection, holiness, righteousness. Nothing wicked or sinful will exist in that state. It will be a place devoid of suffering, toil, pain, crying, death, etc. It will be a place of glory and perfection, a place of rest and comfort for all of God's people, and that for eternity.

Let us quote what Peter said:

2Pe 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Peter is speaking of the same New H&E that Isaiah 65-66 spoke of. Yet when you read those passages they contian death, sin and accursed in them. So how do you reconcile this with your statement:

This will be a place of perfection, holiness, righteousness. Nothing wicked or sinful will exist in that state. It will be a place devoid of suffering, toil, pain, crying, death, etc. It will be a place of glory and perfection, a place of rest and comfort for all of God's people, and that for eternity

Is building houses considered work?

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.

I thought Jesus went to prepare a place for us?

Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Looks like somebody is going to be labouring. What happened to our rest you spoke of?
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Did planet earth perish in the flood?

John Owen:

'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

"It is evident, from sundry places in the New Testament, what extreme oppositions the believing Jews met withal, all the world over, from their own countrymen, with and among whom they lived. They in the meantime, no doubt, warned them of the wrath of Christ against them for their cursed unbelief and persecutions; particularly letting them know, that Christ would come in vengeance ere long, according as he had threatened, to the ruin of his enemies. And because the persecuting Jews, all the world over, upbraided the believers with the temple and the holy city, Jerusalem, their worship and service instituted of God, which they had defiled; they were given to know, that even all these things also should be destroyed, for their rejection of the Son of God. After some continuance of time, the threatening denounced being not yet accomplished,--as is the manner of profane persons and hardened sinners, Eccles. viii. 11,--they began to mock and scoff, as if they were all but the vain pretences, or loose, causeless fears of the Christians. That this was the state with them, or shortly would be, the apostle declares in this chapter, verses 3, 4. Because things continued in the old state, without alteration, and judgment was not speedily executed, they scoffed at all the threats about the coming of the Lord that had been denounced against them." (“Providential Changes, An Argument for Universal Holiness,” in The Works of John Owen: Sermons to the Church, 23 vols. (Carlisle, Pennsylvania: Banner of Truth, [1850-1853], 1998), 9:132.

Charles Spurgeon

Did you ever regret the absence of the burnt-offering, or the red heifer, of any one of the sacrifices and rites of the Jews? Did you ever pine for the feast of tabernacle, or the dedication? No, because, though these were like the old heavens and earth to the Jewish believers, they have passed away, and we now live under a new heavens and a new earth, so far as the dispensation of divine teaching is concerned. The substance is come, and the shadow has gone: and we do not remember it." (Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, vol. xxxvii, p. 354).

 

[RAdam]

I love it when people run to Isaiah 65 to quote the part about houses and all of that to try to disprove he is talking about the eternal state. You do realize that the book was written 700 years before Jesus Christ. At that time God hadn't revealed much about the eternal state. He wrote that in language the people then living could understand. In Genesis when people died they were said to have been "gathered to his people."

Now, you object to the understanding that the physical creation is in mind when Peter wrote 2 Peter 3. Did the earth perish in that flood? Well, let's look at what the bible says.

Genesis 6:6, 7 - "And it repented the Lord that he had made the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And teh Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and creeping thing, and the fowls of the aith; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

Genesis 7:21, 22 - "And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died."

Guess what God called the dry land. That's right, He called it earth. The earth, or dry land, by the word of God stood out of the water and in the water. That water was the instrument by which that earth perished, all that had breath thereon died. Obviously this is that to which Peter is referring. I don't care what John Owen says, one must put on blinders to deny that Peter is referencing Genesis and is talking about the physical earth. Peter is not using prophetic language, he is using straightforward epistle language.

Did the Jewish church stand out of the water and in the water by the word of God? Had it already been overflowed and destroyed by water prior to Peter writing that letter? That assertion is ridiculous and flies in the face of the clear language of the text. The only reason people take the conclusion you present is because they have already formed a view of the end times that will not allow a future coming of Christ in judgement on this world at which He will destroy and remake the physical world in righteousness.

 

[HankD]

Paul was not quoting himself. 1 Thess 4:17 sounds nothing like 1 Cor. 15:54.

Yes he is quoting from Is 25:8 and Hos. 13:14. Now for the 3rd time, what is the nature of death described in these OT passages?

Death is separation from it's life force.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.​

1 Corinthians 15

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

The last enemy to be destroyed will be death, Presumably all death of anykind.

I did answer in providing an indepth discussion of Acts 1:9-11 from a full-preterist position. Apparently you didn't bother to click it. Try this time:

You are partially correct, I did go to the site previously and even quoted him without realizing that the author was WH Bell Jr.

I am sorry.

However that does not excuse the fact that you can't/won't put the preterist view of Acts 1:9-11 passage in your own words

You posted this disertation from Bell, you couldn't/didn't put it in your own words.

It takes several pages of explanation to transform the meaning of Acts 1:8-11 into some kind of AD70 "parousia" where Bell tries to fit the proverbial square peg into the proverbial round hole of what he calls a preterist A.D. 70 framework for Christ’s return where Christ Himself does not actually but spiritually return.

Or perhaps He is hidden or whatever inside the cloud (this is an explanation given by another preterist and even used the word "invisible") where no one can see Him. Both of these views are in contradiction of the plain scripture "every eye shall see Him", he justifies this distortion with (Ephesians 1:18) and misapplies it to the global, visible and bodily return of Jesus Christ to earth as something seen in "the eyes of our understanding". This same Paul who tells us that when He descends into the atmosphere, we shall meet Him in the air at His coming.

Likewise he completly distorts the phrase "this same Jesus" into what he calls a spiritual, actual and [FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]real [/FONT]coming of the SAME Jesus[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold], in a cloud[/FONT], without either that coming or cloud being physical.

It is no wonder that you don't want to put this explanation in your own words.

Just take Acts 1:11 at face value. The return of Christ will be visible and He will come in the resurrected, glorified body in which He was crucified and you won't need several pages of distortion to explain your view.

Sure there are, as even most futurist scholars admit there was a 1st century anticipation of the Lord's return in their lifetime. Why? Because they taught it!

That is because He said No man knows the day or the hour. Also:

Acts 1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?​

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power

So it is no surprise that there was that expectation as well as a complaint of delay:

2 Peter 3

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

According to Peter then in God's calendar Jesus has currently been gone about 2 days.

You just keep quoting verses that even non-preterist admit are speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem.

Some of the Olivet discourse is concerning the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, some is directed toward the Second Coming. Some people see it both ways, some confound the two, some apply all of it to the destruction of Jerusalem, some to the visible and bodily Return of the Lord. So this is not a proof that preterism is the complete answer.

For every author you quote I can quote another of opposite opinion and in fact have quoted church fathers who were millenialists.

Church fathers who were associated and even students of John the Apostle who having lived before and after the destruction of the Temple who documented that destruction but knew nothing of the preterist view but as mentioned above were millenialists who and or were still expecting the visible and bodily Return of Jesus Christ.

I keep quoting the Scripture because that is the way to let people see it for themselves and decide.

It flows from the throne:

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

Nobody else seems to have trouble putting it into their eschatological framework whether they be futurist or preterist. I think you've been shown a problem in your interpretation and now having a hard time staying consistent.

The Spirit of God has the attribute of omnipresence which is reflected in imagery.

I don't know what Clarke taught but I find this amazing. You must believe then that the lost man's nature will be so changed that he is unable to sin in his rebellion against God once cast into hell. Do the angels and Satan also have this changed nature? I would love for you to point to any scripture that teaches this. Is it the "end of sin" passages? Are there any scholars you know of who hold such a view?

I think you are grasping at straws in order to hold to your literalistic view of certain scriptures.

likewise I find it amazing that you by attrition believe that sin will exist in God's realm throughout eternity.

But you are correct I do not believe that sin can exist in God's realm throughout eternity.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

HankD