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Futurism an invention of the Jesuits?
- Thread starter J.D.
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Lastday
RAdam,
Your write:
I personally like your explanation as long as it allows the fulfillment of the
Mystery of Christ as well as the Mystery of God (Eph.3:4; Rev.10:6-7)! Both
occur at and with respect to the second Advent of Christ to "gather together in one all things in Christ" (Eph.1:10) AND also fulfill the promise of redemption to God's former people by allowing them to live forever on earth according to the Davidic Covenant!! Please note the fivefold repetition of the word "forever" in God's promise for the eternal Kingdom on this earth!!! Ezek.37:24-28.
Mel
RAdam,
Your write:
I personally like your explanation as long as it allows the fulfillment of the
Mystery of Christ as well as the Mystery of God (Eph.3:4; Rev.10:6-7)! Both
occur at and with respect to the second Advent of Christ to "gather together in one all things in Christ" (Eph.1:10) AND also fulfill the promise of redemption to God's former people by allowing them to live forever on earth according to the Davidic Covenant!! Please note the fivefold repetition of the word "forever" in God's promise for the eternal Kingdom on this earth!!! Ezek.37:24-28.
Mel
HankD,
You write:
I think you have a legitimate point here with reference to the END of the Age and yet
there are "ages to come"...the Millennial Age and the Eternal Ages without an end.
The Dispensation of the administration of God's Purpose for all mankind relates to the "fullness of Time" at Christ's first coming (Gal.4:4) to redeem those under the law and to adopt Gentiles into His Household...just as it relates to the "fullness of the Times" at His second coming to bring all things in heaven AND the earth under His dominion. Eph.1:10.
Mel
You write:
I think you have a legitimate point here with reference to the END of the Age and yet
there are "ages to come"...the Millennial Age and the Eternal Ages without an end.
The Dispensation of the administration of God's Purpose for all mankind relates to the "fullness of Time" at Christ's first coming (Gal.4:4) to redeem those under the law and to adopt Gentiles into His Household...just as it relates to the "fullness of the Times" at His second coming to bring all things in heaven AND the earth under His dominion. Eph.1:10.
Mel
Last edited by a moderator:
You are correct, perhaps I should has said "time" is not the focus of the word in Chafer's definition.
I heard our weatherman say we are going to have periods of warm weather this winter because of El Nino.
or "We are going to have a period of Global Warming".
While it does imply time (which I already admitted) it is not specific and does not include any dates.
That was my point in order to relate it to what I consider a better word i.e. "aion" used in Scripture.
I didn't say I approved of the definition, it is however the standard of those who sat under Chafer (His Systematic Theology was used by my Alma Mater) though I don't claim everything he has written as my own view.
One of my complaints with traditional dispensationalism is the cookie cutter approach to the past ages and worlds as if they were a series of systematic time slices dispensed by God proving that man is a failure (we already knew that from Genesis 1-3).
I think in that aspect we are in agreement?
I feel more comfortable talking about the Edenic age instead of the Dispensation of Innocence or the ante-deluvian world rather than the Dispensation of Government.
While these "periods" of history involve time, "time" is not the focus but God's purpose and the fulfillment of His will.
I don't know, but it might have been Chafer's reason for dropping the word "time" from his definition.
HankD
I also like to view eschatology in the light of the Covenants of God as this word is a scriptural word.
The problem is that once you even use the word "covenant" you are very likely to be branded with the hot iron of "Covenant Theology" in a rush to judgment by those who lie in wait to judge which is far from the truth as to my position.
This happened to me here at the BB a few years ago when I used the phrases "Noahide Covenant" and "Abrahamic Covenant".
HankD
HankD,
Your observation is true that:
The use of the phrase "Davidic Covenant" is special because its fulfillment is based on God's unconditional sworn promise to once again unite the two sticks of Ephraim and Judah after He has brought them back to their land out of the nations of their exile.
God has punished Ephraim (and Dan) and will not restore these two Tribes in sharing the inheritance of the land of Israel until Christ returns to fulfill both the Abrahamic Covenant as it relates to Abraham's "natural seed" but also to fulfill His Covenant Promises to David that are irrevocable.
Mel
Your observation is true that:
The use of the phrase "Davidic Covenant" is special because its fulfillment is based on God's unconditional sworn promise to once again unite the two sticks of Ephraim and Judah after He has brought them back to their land out of the nations of their exile.
God has punished Ephraim (and Dan) and will not restore these two Tribes in sharing the inheritance of the land of Israel until Christ returns to fulfill both the Abrahamic Covenant as it relates to Abraham's "natural seed" but also to fulfill His Covenant Promises to David that are irrevocable.
Mel
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
HankD: // There are almost as many definitions of "dispensation" as there are dispensational authors and that is why I normally avoid the label.
Also because there are so many authors with so many points of view (some of them out in the proverbial "left field'). \\
Yep, that is why I would look up the scriptures with dispensation" in them and the scriptures with "administration" in them [and in several different translations]. That would make an intersting word study. Then I would develop my own 'theory' of dispensation. But people here I find like to argue with the professionals. I just ain't in their league. I prefer to discussion with folks like HankD or Mel or anybody else who posts here. At least these folks are in my league.
Hey! didn't I already discuss with HankD and Mel and others right here on BB? I wonder what we said back then? In any case, I would rather discuss with people who are here (on BB) than people who are there (on boards in left field, center field, right field, and the four bases
Also because there are so many authors with so many points of view (some of them out in the proverbial "left field'). \\
Yep, that is why I would look up the scriptures with dispensation" in them and the scriptures with "administration" in them [and in several different translations]. That would make an intersting word study. Then I would develop my own 'theory' of dispensation. But people here I find like to argue with the professionals. I just ain't in their league. I prefer to discussion with folks like HankD or Mel or anybody else who posts here. At least these folks are in my league.
Hey! didn't I already discuss with HankD and Mel and others right here on BB? I wonder what we said back then? In any case, I would rather discuss with people who are here (on BB) than people who are there (on boards in left field, center field, right field, and the four bases
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
In my administration of 'dispensation', salvation is the same way through out the ages: those who believe what Messiah Jesus was going to do (ages Before Christ /BC/), what Messiah Jesus did (in the Cross & His Resurrection) and what Messiah Jesus was going to do (ages Anno Dominni /AD/); those who confess Messiah Jesus as Lord & Messiah (the two are two sides of the same coin). Salvation is the same in all ages.
I beleive that the pretribulation rapture will take place at the end of the current Gentile Church Age (times of the Gentiles); the Saints (mostly Gentiles but a few 100,000 Jews) alive will be translated (raptured) and the Dead in Messiah will be resurrected and given bodies like the heavenly body of Messiah Jesus (i.e. translated). Then the Tribulation Period will begin (AKA: Daniel's 70th "7") and continue for about seven years (3.5 years times two, 42 months, 1260 days) and end with the Second Coming of Messiah Jesus in Power and Glory. At the mid-trib crises, the Antichrist will dedicate the Temple and announce that he is 'g-d'. Millions of Jews will be saved and protected by the very hand of G-d in the Wilderness (S.E. of Jerusalem).
The Jews will be saved by calling Jesus "Lord" and believing that the Son of G-d arose from the dead and is the true Jewish Messiah.
The Gentiles and such Jews are saved in this Chruch Age (times of the Gentiles) by calling Jesus "Lord" and believing that the Son of G-d arose from the dead and is the true Jewish Messiah.
In the Age of the Kings of Yisrael (before Messiah was born) people were saved by looking forward to the Jewish Messiah.
In the Ages before that, people were saved by acting on what knowledge they had of THE ONE True God which happens to be the true Jewish Messiah.
Salvation is always by Messiah Jesus, in Messiah Jesus, by THE ONE, by the LORD of the OT, by the Messiah of the N.T.
I beleive that the pretribulation rapture will take place at the end of the current Gentile Church Age (times of the Gentiles); the Saints (mostly Gentiles but a few 100,000 Jews) alive will be translated (raptured) and the Dead in Messiah will be resurrected and given bodies like the heavenly body of Messiah Jesus (i.e. translated). Then the Tribulation Period will begin (AKA: Daniel's 70th "7") and continue for about seven years (3.5 years times two, 42 months, 1260 days) and end with the Second Coming of Messiah Jesus in Power and Glory. At the mid-trib crises, the Antichrist will dedicate the Temple and announce that he is 'g-d'. Millions of Jews will be saved and protected by the very hand of G-d in the Wilderness (S.E. of Jerusalem).
The Jews will be saved by calling Jesus "Lord" and believing that the Son of G-d arose from the dead and is the true Jewish Messiah.
The Gentiles and such Jews are saved in this Chruch Age (times of the Gentiles) by calling Jesus "Lord" and believing that the Son of G-d arose from the dead and is the true Jewish Messiah.
In the Age of the Kings of Yisrael (before Messiah was born) people were saved by looking forward to the Jewish Messiah.
In the Ages before that, people were saved by acting on what knowledge they had of THE ONE True God which happens to be the true Jewish Messiah.
Salvation is always by Messiah Jesus, in Messiah Jesus, by THE ONE, by the LORD of the OT, by the Messiah of the N.T.
Lastday
My Dear Friend Ed Edwards,
It's been over four years since we debated on this Forum. Way back in 2006 we carried on for months re the difference between God's "anger and wrath" and you came to my defense at times as in 9/13 when I wrote:
2008 I have been challenged by the evidence for Lastday signs that include a total lunar "red-blood" eclipse that, in quoting Joel 2:31, Peter applied to the Hour Christ died. Acts 2:20-22. This is a Sign that, until 2008, I thought applied only to His SC. People react adversely to my discovery about the possible year for His SC. They don't realize Jesus applied the "unknown day" primarily to those who will survive to the very End...and secondarily to Trib Saints who need to be prepared in advance to be free of debt during the Endtime when Believers must share with each other to survive.
Ed, I think we agreed the Endtime Great Tribulation should be thought of as
just 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days. Do you realize the Two Prophets will
arrive from heaven on Wednesday, the 7th Day of the Passover Feast of Unleavened Bread? Day #1260 must be a Wednesday (180 weeks later)...just 3.5 days (3 or 4) before Christ appears to redeem Israel. If the final 7-Year Period begins in 2026, it will be a Saturday (Feast of Tabs always begins on a Tue, Thur or a Saturday). In the period from 2026 to 2033, it will begin and end on Tishri 15, a Saturday; but Messiah may appear on Sunday for Israel. I find this intriguing if Hosea's "after 2 days" refers to 2000 years since AD 33.
My point is that Jesus only had Endtime survivors, not Pre-Tribbers, in mind with respect to not knowing the exact day or hour! Those in the Church who "overcome, endure (survive) to the End" will reign with Christ over the nations when He comes as "King" Rev.2:25-26; but, please note, all Israel (probably 5 Million) will not be part of the Rapture; but will be "kept alive" to populate the Earthly Millennial Kingdom!! Only the 144,000 Jews, being the Firstfruit of living Saints taken to heaven on the Lastday, will be part of the
Bride of the Lamb...for "they will be redeemed from the earth, from among men, will sing the song of the Lamb before God and will follow the Lamb wherever He may go"!!! Rev.14:1-5; Rev.15:3-4.
Have you seen the evidence for what Peter taught re the "blood-red" moon:
It is found in the movie...www.thestarofbethlehemmovie.com.
Mel
My Dear Friend Ed Edwards,
It's been over four years since we debated on this Forum. Way back in 2006 we carried on for months re the difference between God's "anger and wrath" and you came to my defense at times as in 9/13 when I wrote:
You agreed with me on the reason for the misunderstanding about "thumos":
We agree on some aspects of "Dispensational" truth and differ on others. Since
2008 I have been challenged by the evidence for Lastday signs that include a total lunar "red-blood" eclipse that, in quoting Joel 2:31, Peter applied to the Hour Christ died. Acts 2:20-22. This is a Sign that, until 2008, I thought applied only to His SC. People react adversely to my discovery about the possible year for His SC. They don't realize Jesus applied the "unknown day" primarily to those who will survive to the very End...and secondarily to Trib Saints who need to be prepared in advance to be free of debt during the Endtime when Believers must share with each other to survive.
Ed, I think we agreed the Endtime Great Tribulation should be thought of as
just 3.5 years, 42 months, 1260 days. Do you realize the Two Prophets will
arrive from heaven on Wednesday, the 7th Day of the Passover Feast of Unleavened Bread? Day #1260 must be a Wednesday (180 weeks later)...just 3.5 days (3 or 4) before Christ appears to redeem Israel. If the final 7-Year Period begins in 2026, it will be a Saturday (Feast of Tabs always begins on a Tue, Thur or a Saturday). In the period from 2026 to 2033, it will begin and end on Tishri 15, a Saturday; but Messiah may appear on Sunday for Israel. I find this intriguing if Hosea's "after 2 days" refers to 2000 years since AD 33.
My point is that Jesus only had Endtime survivors, not Pre-Tribbers, in mind with respect to not knowing the exact day or hour! Those in the Church who "overcome, endure (survive) to the End" will reign with Christ over the nations when He comes as "King" Rev.2:25-26; but, please note, all Israel (probably 5 Million) will not be part of the Rapture; but will be "kept alive" to populate the Earthly Millennial Kingdom!! Only the 144,000 Jews, being the Firstfruit of living Saints taken to heaven on the Lastday, will be part of the
Bride of the Lamb...for "they will be redeemed from the earth, from among men, will sing the song of the Lamb before God and will follow the Lamb wherever He may go"!!! Rev.14:1-5; Rev.15:3-4.
Have you seen the evidence for what Peter taught re the "blood-red" moon:
It is found in the movie...www.thestarofbethlehemmovie.com.
Mel
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