FYI on Hyper-Calvinism:

[glfredrick]

The notion that it is the duty of the Church to populate heaven is false and man made.

In a technical sense you are correct, except that the Great Commission never says a single word about "populating heaven." Of course that is false and man-made. You just made it up yourself! Can't find that in the Bible nor does the Great Commission -- shared 5 times in the Scriptures, once in each gospel and once in Acts, every time by Christ Himself -- say that.

Your anti-missional stance is astounding to me. How do you add members to your congregation and how did your congregation come to arrive in the first place unless someone evangelized the lost?

Further, are you doing a single thing that Jesus told us to do?

 

[glfredrick]

If you are talking about historic Calvinism, there are reasons other than paedobaptism that would prohibit a Baptist from being a Calvinist. Historic Calvinism was completely at odds with any denomination that would be described as free church – the primary difference being ecclesiological, not soteriological. The soteriological debate was primarily from within Calvinism. Baptists did not grow out of a reformation, but a reconstruction. It was very much a rejection of Calvinistic esslesiology.

The problem that I see is that many will say Calvinism derives its beliefs from previously held positions in Scripture– so all those before Calvin and all after who hold some of those beliefs (primarily sovereign election) are Calvinists. But those seperate positions do not constitute historic Calvinism. Just because a church would have affirmed Calvinistic soteriology does not make them Calvinists – it means that Calvin came to the same conclusion as others who have gone before and perhaps others afterwards. It helps to validate Calvinistic soteriology, but it does not make all who would agree with this soteriology Calvinists.

I reject righteousness by works because it is in the Bible – this does not make me a Jovianist.

The Calvinism held by Baptists is primarily the soterioligical view. Further, you know that...

 

[JonC]

So your going to label Primitive Baptists as Calvinists? Good luck with that brother.

Actually, I’m not – but they might not think that John Calvin got everything wrong, the man was literate after all. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[glfredrick]

Actually, I’m not – but they might not think that John Calvin got everything wrong, the man was literate after all. :smilewinkgrin:

Just wondering if you have actually ever read any of Calvin's commentaries?

 

[kyredneck]

In a technical sense you are correct, except that the Great Commission never says a single word about "populating heaven." Of course that is false and man-made. You just made it up yourself!

How many sermons have you sat through (I don't know, maybe you preach the horrendous lie yourself) where the clear condemnation is on the slacking soul winner for people perishing in hell? I didn't make that up. I've experienced that loathsome burden many times in the SBC I grew up in.

Please tell me you don't preach that horrendous lie.

Can't find that in the Bible nor does the Great Commission -- shared 5 times in the Scriptures, once in each gospel and once in Acts, every time by Christ Himself -- say that.

I can't seem to find that phrase 'the Great Commision' even once, let alone 5 times. Perhaps you'll point them out? You know, the ones that you deem to be 'the great commission' of the Church.

Your anti-missional stance is astounding to me.

You're out of line and totally wrong, you don't know how wrong. I'm anti- using the word of God deceitfully, and lying to the flock and imposing an awful burdern on them that Christ did not.

How do you add members to your congregation and how did your congregation come to arrive in the first place unless someone evangelized the lost?[

Further, are you doing a single thing that Jesus told us to do?

You first lay out to me your protocol for soul winning. How do you know when you've done enough?

How do you justify 5000 posts on the BB amongst all these saved folks when you could be out going door to door, passing out pamplets, etc., etc..

Do you offer Christ to every single person you come in contact with without fail?

 

[John of Japan]

In a technical sense you are correct, except that the Great Commission never says a single word about "populating heaven." Of course that is false and man-made. You just made it up yourself! Can't find that in the Bible nor does the Great Commission -- shared 5 times in the Scriptures, once in each gospel and once in Acts, every time by Christ Himself -- say that.

Your anti-missional stance is astounding to me. How do you add members to your congregation and how did your congregation come to arrive in the first place unless someone evangelized the lost?

Further, are you doing a single thing that Jesus told us to do?

Reminds me of the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit-Predestinarian-Baptists (finally rejected by even the PBs) who were anti-evangelism: http://www.guidedbiblestudies.com/library/twoseed.htm. They have dwindled to only 4 churches and 80 members, which tends to happen to anti-missional churches.

How anyone can read not just the 5 statements of the Great Commission, but the epistles of Paul (all about world evangelism, all written by a missionary) and think evangelism and world missions are wrong is beyond me.

 

[glfredrick]

How many sermons have you sat through (I don't know, maybe you preach the horrendous lie yourself) where the clear condemnation is on the slacking soul winner for people perishing in hell? I didn't make that up. I've experienced that loathsome burden many times in the SBC I grew up in.

Please tell me you don't preach that horrendous lie.

I have heard that preached too often to count. More so by rabid fundamentalists than anyone else. I rather abhor the term "soul-winner" and yet many use it and feel justified in that use.

I don't buy it, don't believe it, and certainly do not teach or preach it.

BUT... I DO preach that we need to PREACH and WITNESS to the lost. The Bible COMMANDS us to do that!

We are not the soul-winners. Christ is. But we ARE the messengers sent by God for the task, carrying the Word that God gave us to share. Lifted up, illuminated, inspired by the Holy Spirit for the task. The one's Christ told us to pray for:

Luke 10:1-2 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go. 2 And he said to them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.

WE are the laborers of the Lord. HE is the soul-winner!

On another note, it is quite evident from this and other posts of yours that you equate being of the elect with the totality of salvation. How so? The Bible stipulates other steps in the process.

I can't seem to find that phrase 'the Great Commision' even once, let alone 5 times. Perhaps you'll point them out? You know, the ones that you deem to be 'the great commission' of the Church.

I recall God saying something about "seeing they cannot see..." In any case, the Bible does not use the word Trinity either, and yet we do. The Bible does not use the words chapter and verse, pew, hymnal, organ, piano, baptistry, vestibule, suit and tie, or any number of other words you used just last Sunday.

The Great Commission, like the Great Commandment, is found in Scripture and is described as such for ease of use in everyday language.

That you do not know these passages is shocking...


Mat 28:18-20 (ESV) And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Mark 16:15-16 (ESV) And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Luke 24:44-48 (ESV) Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." 45 Then he opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, 47 and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

John 20:21 (ESV) Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you."

Acts 1:8 (ESV) But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth."

Further...

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Matt 26:13 Truly, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will also be told in memory of her."

Mark 14:9 And truly, I say to you, wherever the gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her."


You have no leg to stand on in regards to not knowing of Christ's commission to His church!

You're out of line and totally wrong, you don't know how wrong. I'm anti- using the word of God deceitfully, and lying to the flock and imposing an awful burdern on them that Christ did not.

I have just demonstrated FROM SCRIPTURE that Jesus did indeed "lay this burden" onto His church. The efforts of the 11 and Paul exemplify that. The efforts of his church after the apostolic age exemplify that.

In that you ignore these commands of Christ, you do in fact misuse the Scriptures.

You first lay out to me your protocol for soul winning. How do you know when you've done enough?

We share. God saves. Simple enough.

How do I know when I've done enough? I can't ever really know that and neither can you. At least I AM advocating (and doing) what Christ called us to do.

Paul said this to the Corinthians:

I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth.

 

[glfredrick]

Reminds me of the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit-Predestinarian-Baptists (finally rejected by even the PBs) who were anti-evangelism: http://www.guidedbiblestudies.com/library/twoseed.htm. They have dwindled to only 4 churches and 80 members, which tends to happen to anti-missional churches.

How anyone can read not just the 5 statements of the Great Commission, but the epistles of Paul (all about world evangelism, all written by a missionary) and think evangelism and world missions are wrong is beyond me.

I agree... May that tribe decrease with every passing day, only that the grace of God has saved their souls first!

 

[kyredneck]

Reminds me of the Two-Seed-in-the-Spirit-Predestinarian-Baptists (finally rejected by even the PBs) who were anti-evangelism: http://www.guidedbiblestudies.com/library/twoseed.htm. They have dwindled to only 4 churches and 80 members, which tends to happen to anti-missional churches.

How anyone can read not just the 5 statements of the Great Commission, but the epistles of Paul (all about world evangelism, all written by a missionary) and think evangelism and world missions are wrong is beyond me.

Search my posts, I have never written or stated anything anti-evangelical or even anti-missionary. I am not against missions, or rather Churches that choose to support them. What I'm against is the lie that their support is increasing the numbers of the redeemed in heaven. I despise the lie that people will perish in hell if the flock doesn't financially supprt a mission board.

Missions [can] bring God's sheep into the kingdom here on earth. Missions do not cause them to become sheep. Only God does that.

 

[John of Japan]

Search my posts, I have never written or stated anything anti-evangelical or even anti-missionary. I am not against missions, or rather Churches that choose to support them. What I'm against is the lie that their support is increasing the numbers of the redeemed in heaven. I'm despise the lie that people will perish in hell if the flock doesn't financially supprt a mission board.

Thanks for the clarification. You are at least anti-obedience-to-the-Great-Commission, and anti-mission-board though. Are you also anti-church-building, anti-pew, anti-Internet-for-God's-work and anti-anything-else-that-is-not-specified-in-Scripture? You should be these others to be consistent.

I am not against missions, or rather Churches that choose to support them.

Then you are against the church at Phillippi which supported Paul (Phil. 4:10-19) and the church at Corinth (2 Cor. 1:11).

Missions [can] bring God's sheep into the kingdom here on earth. Missions do not cause them to become sheep. Only God does that.

And of course I agree. Only the work of the Holy Spirit can convict and save. We are just the messengers.

 

[kyredneck]

Thanks for the clarification. You are at least anti-obedience-to-the-Great-Commission, and anti-mission-board though. Are you also anti-church-building, anti-pew, anti-Internet-for-God's-work and anti-anything-else-that-is-not-specified-in-Scripture? You should be these others to be consistent.
Then you are against the church at Phillippi which supported Paul (Phil. 4:10-19) and the church at Corinth (2 Cor. 1:11).

And of course I agree. Only the work of the Holy Spirit can convict and save. We are just the messengers.

You simply are unjustly jumping to conclusions and wrongly accusing me of many things. You and GF both.

You all go on and declare what great things you're doing for the Lord. I'll tend to what I percieve He places in my path to do.

 

[glfredrick]

You simply are unjustly jumping to conclusions and wrongly accusing me of many things. You and GF both.

You all go on and declare what great things you're doing for the Lord. I'll tend to what I percieve He places in my path to do.

That's a cop out and you know it.

We're good with you doing what the Lord gives you to do. You, however, deny that the Lord might call others to something other than what He has called you to do -- namely, be in mission in the world for the sake of the gospel as Christ commanded (all people for all times and in all places).

 

[Amy.G]

That's a cop out and you know it.

We're good with you doing what the Lord gives you to do. You, however, deny that the Lord might call others to something other than what He has called you to do -- namely, be in mission in the world for the sake of the gospel as Christ commanded (all people for all times and in all places).

:thumbs:

Apparently Paul wasted his life sailing in dangerous waters, being imprisoned, beaten, starved, living in poverty....all for the sake of spreading the gospel.

 

[JonC]

Just wondering if you have actually ever read any of Calvin's commentaries?

Yes, I have.

I was really introduced to his work while doing research for a paper regarding divine sovereignty and prayer (I think that much of his works are often ignored because a greater interest is in the doctrines of grace – which does not constitute the majority of his work). Before that time I had read portions of Institutions, but not really enough to say that I had examined it.

But yes, I have read Calvin. He was a brilliant man, and remains one of my favorites. Why?

 

[glfredrick]

:thumbs:

Apparently Paul wasted his life sailing in dangerous waters, being imprisoned, beaten, starved, living in poverty....all for the sake of spreading the gospel.

And all the others as well... Luke, John Mark, Peter, the rest of the 11, the ones who went out after Pentecost and began missionalizing their homeland, the ones Paul mentioned who were somewhat in competition with him (and who may have been pressing a false gospel, but were still on mission), Apollos, etc., etc., etc.

 

[glfredrick]

Yes, I have.

I was really introduced to his work while doing research for a paper regarding divine sovereignty and prayer (I think that much of his works are often ignored because a greater interest is in the doctrines of grace – which does not constitute the majority of his work). Before that time I had read portions of Institutions, but not really enough to say that I had examined it.

But yes, I have read Calvin. He was a brilliant man, and remains one of my favorites. Why?

As we have discussed earlier, on more than one instance you seem to come off as if you haven't.

 

[kyredneck]

That's a cop out and you know it.

As I said in my second post, all the Old Baptist have done is NOT CHANGE; now they're castigated for it.

We're good with you doing what the Lord gives you to do.

OK, I'm good with any Church choosing to support whatever they want; we are autonomous you know.

You, however, deny that the Lord might call others to something other than what He has called you to do -- namely, be in mission in the world for the sake of the gospel as Christ commanded (all people for all times and in all places).

I've done no such thing. You have really disappointed me with all this accusing. I had had a higher opinion of you than that.

 

[kyredneck]

:thumbs:

Apparently Paul wasted his life sailing in dangerous waters, being imprisoned, beaten, starved, living in poverty....all for the sake of spreading the gospel.

Egad, you people are something else.

 

[John of Japan]

You simply are unjustly jumping to conclusions and wrongly accusing me of many things. You and GF both.

You all go on and declare what great things you're doing for the Lord. I'll tend to what I percieve He places in my path to do.

I accused you of nothing and I have declared no great thing that I have done for God. Go back and look. I asked questions. You had the opportunity of saying that you were against or not against such things.

Stand up for what you believe. Interact with us. Try to convince us. You say we are wrong and unbiblical, then as soon as we give Scripture you flee. You are the one who brought up support by churches for missionaries, and I am responding to that. Now work with me. Please tell me how it is wrong for churches to support my work in Japan for the Lord, but okay for the church at Phillippi to support Paul in Phil 4:

14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.

 

[JonC]

The Calvinism held by Baptists is primarily the soterioligical view. Further, you know that...

Yes, I do know that. That’s why I stated “historical Calvinism” instead of Soteriological Calvinism .

If Calvinistic soteriology predates Calvin and Zwingli (if not it is a sixteenth century invention) and Calvinism is now defined as only its soteriology, then is it really Calvinism or is Calvinism really a dead theological system that only maintains a Reformed soteriology that it borrowed from earlier Christians? If I arrive at the doctrines of grace through Scripture alone, but adamantly reject Calvin’s ecclesiology and Beza’s foundational use of providence in his systemization of Calvin’s teachings, why would I consider myself a Calvinist?

But yes, I know. I’m just being argumentative. You are taking Calvinism to refer to soteriology. I don’t, and that’s why I don’t consider myself a “Calvinist,” although we probably agree on doctrine.