GAMBLING ESTABLISHMENTS

[Ransom]

ken said:

That says alot about you lack of Chritian character.

Actually, it says a lot about her abundance of Christian character. Going into a bar with all those bottles if liquor lined up, and ordering a soda.

"But the fruit of the Spirit is . . . self-control. Against such there is no law" (Gal. 5:22-23).

Making an excuse to go into a bar and say you are wittnessing. etc. It is the same thing to go to a whore house,"well, preacher I am only witnessing" yeah right!

Apples and oranges. Many bars cater to clientele who don't imbibe. I have yet to hear of a brothel that caters to the chaste.

You might not be drinking right now, but keep going to the bars and you'll probally end up drunk just like the rest of them.

Are you speaking from personal experience, or are you just making an over-generalized value judgment against someone you don't even know?

Have you no convictions?

Going to a bar that serves alcohol and ordering a soda only, speaks of strong convictions.

What's wrong with getting soda at a store, or pizza parlor?

Nothing. If that is what floats your boat, feel free.

You see that is what is wrong with America.

Yes, that's right, people order soft drinks in bars and the entire country goes up the tubes.

How are we supposed to help our country if God's people are just like them. The Bible(the only true Bible to KJB1611)

If you believe that the KJV is the only true Bible, then you are a heretic for adding to the teachings of the Word of God. Therefore, your opinions on Godly morality are rather useless. But that is a discussion for another BB forum.

 

[Brian]

Bugslife
You do realize that with being biblicly instructed about your activities if you continue in them it is sin. The bible tells us that if one continues this way to mark them as reprobate and have no further dealings with them. The key here as always is repentance. So if you were to tell us that no matter what you are going to hang with your friends in bars then while praying for you I would need to shake the dust off and move on.

That may seem cold but its not.
You were bothered by this enough to ask our opinion about being in casinos. Biblicly as you now know Christians can't do this. Some feel very strongly about this and it comes out in the way they respond.
The question we all need to ask about every thing we do or say is How does this reflect on Jesus? If you can't spend time with your friends away from a bar they aren't your friends.

 

[bugslife]

HA !!!!!! Which KJV are you reading? YOU crack ME UP !!! Christ was sent to us to save us --- He never came here to hang out with the holy rollers only !!! He most certainly would associate with sinners.

"Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
"

So before you go ahead and blow me off, remember your representing Christ everywhere you go, and I don't think HE will enter in a bar or some other established place that is wrong to hang out and witness.

Might I suggest to you that YOU also represent Christ everywhere that YOU go -- including here. Compassion, love and Christian guidance will get you a lot farther than cold judgment.

 

[Brian]

Gambeling isn't specificly verboten. Neither is pornography. Though gambleing thrives on the love of money which is the root of all evil. Like pornography thrives on lust. So would you advocate Porn just because it is not specificly addressed? Isn't this the problem Jesus had whith the Pharisees?
Ransom what is your deal?
Ken reposted and apologized for how he expressed his views. Or did you wiegh in just to call someone a heretic?
I may be way off base here but I thought the purpose of this thread was to answer Bugslifes' question af wether or not Christians should patronize any portion of a gambleing institution not to slap each other around.

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: Brian G ]

 

[Brian]

Originally posted by bugslife:
[QB]HA !!!!!! Which KJV are you reading? YOU crack ME UP !!! Christ was sent to us to save us --- He never came here to hang out with the holy rollers only !!! He most certainly would associate with sinners.

"Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?" 17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, "Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I came not to call the righteous, but sinners."
"

Did Jesus eat dinner with publicans in the gate where recipts were taken or else where?
Going places to witness is very different than going there to spend money or time with friends. Yes Jesus always went to where sinners were but He didn't stay there He always brought the sinners out.

HAA!!!

 

[Ransom]

Now, to comment on the topic at hand, bugslife said:

What do you think about legal gambling establishments?

Gambling should not be endorsed by the state or any Christian institution.

While the Bible does not mention gambling directly, the practice does fall foul of certain Biblical principles:

1. That men ought to profit from the work of their hands. This is a principle that was established in the days of Adam (Gen. 3:17-19) and carried through to the New Testament era (2 Thess. 3:10-12). (See also the number of proverbs dealing with the sluggard.) Gambling, on the other hand, is an attempt to get something for nothing, because the payoffs are largely based on probability rather than skill. Furthermore, gambling is a fixed-sum game. For you to win, others must lose, and yet all do the same amount and kind of work.

2. The primary motivation for gambling is greed, which the Bible condemns (Luke 12:15; Rom. 1:29; Eph. 5:3; Col. 3:5). Even if I allow that some people gamble for entertainment, as another person in this thread has said, many of the people who frequent the casinos are the most bored people I have ever seen.

Moreover, the odds in any casino game are, in the long run, in the favour of the house; if gambling weren't a cash cow, no one would run casinos. Gambling creates no wealth or anything of value; it merely transfers cash from the marks to the casino owners.

3. Along the same lines, gambling is poor stewardship of the money God has given you. Again, even if I allow that gambling is a legitimate form of entertainment, that still does not change the fact that many people who gamble, either in the casino or at the lottery booth, are poor or on a fixed income and are spending a lot of money in the hopes of the big win. They are gambling based on a false hope, because the odds are against it.

If I set up a "game" where you gave me $100, and I simply gave back $50 of it, would that be fair? Of course not, yet the return on your investment is better than the state lottery. In a word, the casino and the lottery are legally-sanctioned cons.

And, although these are not explicitly Biblical principles, we cannot discount the link between organized gambling and organized crime, or the fact that heavy betting may potentially lead desperate bettors to influence the outcomes of games, i.e. cheat. Where there are games, there are dishonest men willing to manipulate them for their own gain.

Should we avoid them at all costs? Should we go to thier restaurants and attend their family entertainment activities?

If going to a restaurant or entertainment in a facility that also has gambling is a fair economic exchange, I personally see nothing objectionable about it in itself. Whether you wish to do so (or to be seen doing so) is up to you. Paul said that meat sold on the open market, though it was almost certainly consecrated to some pagan deity, could be eaten guilt-free with no questions asked (1 Cor. 10:25); however, for the sake of the conscience of others, it may be prudent to do so with discretion.

 

[bugslife]

well brian g --- ransom is quite welcome here so far as i am concerned. Why don't you want him expressing his opinions?

.The bible tells us that if one continues this way to mark them as reprobate and have no further dealings with them. The key here as always is repentance. So if you were to tell us that no matter what you are going to hang with your friends in bars then while praying for you I would need to shake the dust off and move on.

Can you guarantee that you will never sin again? OH -- well, I had better have no further dealings with you. What if somebody had said that about our president while he was drinking? Do you just give up on people when it is too hard for you to help win them to Christ? Will you ALWAYS repent for every sin that you commit? Can you promise that you will not ever have a meal where an alcoholic beverage can be served? Good luck to you. As for me, I am fighting to the finish to see as many of my friends and loved ones as possible in the hereafter. How can you possibly choose to judge the way the Lord has spoken to me?

 

[Ransom]

Brian G said:


Ransom what is your deal?
Ken reposted and apologized for how he expressed his views.

Yes, he did - for how he expressed them. Did I miss the post where ken apologized for being wrong, or may I assume his incorrect views are still open to correction?

 

[bugslife]

bravo, ransom --- on your post, i am goig to step away from this discussion. For those of you who choose to continue, enjoy.

 

[Kathy]

This thread needs to be closed because "speaking the truth in love" is definitely NOT what is going on here. I won't say ALL posters on this thread, but I will say most, have failed to show Christ's love in their responses. I would respectfully hope that one of our fine Moderators or Administrators would see fit to lock this thread because it is not a healthy debate, it's a rock throwing match.

Kathy
<><

 

[dfd2]

Ken and Brain G. bring to my mind other characters that are in the New Testament by the way they are acting and what they are saying. They say, "Oh man, look at bugslife and who she is hanging with-- Sinners!!"
"what kind of christian character does that show by how going into "sinful" establishments!"
I recall readng about some other fellows saying the same thing about JEsus, "man, look at who Jesus is hanging out with-- they are sinners!!" "we would never be caught dead hanging out in a "sinful" place"
Just some food for thought.

[ November 07, 2001: Message edited by: dfd2 ]

 

[Don]

The difference being, Jesus never "hung out" in a sinful place. The sinners came to Him.

Now, as for what I really see going on in this thread:

STOP !!! NOW !!!

I'm not the webmaster, I'm not a moderator. But look at the way y'all are addressing each other!

A bunch of kids with nothing better to do than look at each other and say, "I'm better than you are, nah nah, nah nah nay!"

We're down to "you're a Pharisee" and "you're not a Christian."

I remind YOU ALL of what the apostle Paul wrote in Romans 14: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quit acting like little kids who can do no better than call each other names.

Try actually discussing WHY gambling would be wrong, instead of attacking each other.

Look through the "Other Religions" threads; do you really want the atheists to be right about us?

 

[Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:
Brian G said:


Ransom what is your deal?
Ken reposted and apologized for how he expressed his views.

Yes, he did - for how he expressed them. Did I miss the post where ken apologized for being wrong, or may I assume his incorrect views are still open to correction?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may assume that Kens views are open to correction though they are in need of none.
Or does every one who doesn't see it exactly your way in need of correction?
Do you really prepose that Ken is a heretic becuse he feels that the kjv1611 is the only true bible? Personally my kjv doesn't say 1611 on it regardless am I to assume your opinion of me is that i am a heretic also?

Finally before I too step away from this discussion. My direct questioning of you is not your views. No matter what I think of them. But how you wish to express them. Your first post niether helped BL or Ken one of our purposes as Christians is to edify or build up each other. Even in correction.

 

[Ransom]

Brian G said:

Do you really prepose that Ken is a heretic becuse he feels that the kjv1611 is the only true bible?

Is that a statement of theological truth? Yes.
Is it revealed by God? No.

Therefore, it is an unwarranted theological claim, an addition to God's revelation, and by definition, heretical. So, yes, I am really supposing that anyone who believes this, is a heretic.

Personally my kjv doesn't say 1611 on it regardless am I to assume your opinion of me is that i am a heretic also?

Do you believe that the KJV (1611 or otherwise) is the only true Bible? Then yes.

 

[Don]

(shaking head sadly)

And yet, it continues....

 

[Don]

Regarding the pathetic way this topic has degraded:

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Regarding gambling (which is not listed as a sin, but has consequences which are not beneficial), and hanging out in establishments which serve liquor:

Romans 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.

In answer to Genesis 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?

Why, yes, yes we are....

 

[Mike McK]

Hi, bugslife,

In response to your original question, I don't gamble very often.

I live about 45 min from Atlantic City and there are five or six race tracks within an hour's drive of me.

Occasionally, I'll go to the track with some friends and put down two or three dollars, never more than ten dollars in an afternoon.

As long as it's not an addiction and you're not blowing the kids' college money, I don't see a problem with it but I understand that different people feel differently.

We do go to A.C. every now and then. For years, I played in bands that played at the casinos. I still play a band, but we don't make our way to A.C. very often.

I do enjoy taking fifteen or twenty dollars to the poker tables. I can usually make that last for quite a while.

To me, there's no difference between spending twenty dollars for a movie and a cheeseburger and spending it at the track.

At least at the track, you stand a chance of getting it back.

Even if you disagree with that, I would think that you could still go to the buffet that most casinos have with a clear conscience.

Mike

 

[Dr. Bob]

I am watching this discussion carefully and encourage each to act/speak with words seasoned with GRACE. Ransom is answering the issue line for line and Bugsy seems to appreciate it.

Most of the rest are missing the issue. Anyone else have pertinent thoughts on the subject of eating/sleeping etc in places that promote gambling?

(ps - I will start a new thread in a minute on the issue of "just how far" we take the issue of separation)

(pps - And those who want to digress into a KJV discussion, please do so in the Versions forum)

Dr. Bob Griffin, Administrator

 

[SaggyWoman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Brian G:
It is most certainly sin for you to be seen in bars and gambling halls.
Brian<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm. This is interestingly puzzling to me. Is it a sin to be seen at a convenience store that sells beer?

Is it a sin to be seen at a store that sells pornography?

Is it a sin to eat at a restaurant that sells beer?

Is it a sin to be seen talking to a prostitute??

 

[Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaggyWoman:


Hmmmm. This is interestingly puzzling to me. Is it a sin to be seen at a convenience store that sells beer?

Is it a sin to be seen at a store that sells pornography?

Is it a sin to eat at a restaurant that sells beer?

Is it a sin to be seen talking to a prostitute??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I notice that you only took the puzzling part of that post. To answer your direct qusetions.
1 Is the primary purpose of the conveince store to sell beer? If so avoid it. (we have some in my area that exist mostly because they sell beer on sunday and that is their advertisement "Cold beer on /Sunday")
2 Is the store that sells porn a sex shop? Is its primary pupose to cater to lifestyles that God hates? If so don't go there.
3 Is the resturant a beer joint with a grill or is it a regular sit down place? Beer joint don't go.
4 How are you talking to the prostitute? In the open or would it be possible for people passing by to think you are trying to pick them up for sex? If it could be construed for sex don't talk to them. Find a way so your intentions are clear to anyone who would take notice.
What I attempted to do was answer Bugslifes' question Biblicly. Along with every instruction of how a child of God should act there is also an admonishment in Romans 14 v 16"Let not then your good be evil spoken of:"
Meaning to me that in every thing I do even in good and Godly things I need to be careful that there can be no reproach found in it. The whole chapter 14 of Romans deals with how we should act and not cause our brother to stumble. Twice now in this thread it has come up. I know that the kjv seems frowned on by most on this board but is it so different from everyone elses that this isn't clear?

I guess you might have trouble if the only resturant you can reasonably get to is a beer joint inside a c-store surounded by an army of prostitutes that's only open at 3am.
The basic thought idea of your post lines up with the personal seperation thread Dr.Bob started.