Gambling ?

I believe that before all of this, the most, you need to have a special relationship with God. If you have that relationship, you wouldn't want to through anything out the window that God gives you. To me, it's "common sense." I do have people in my family that gamble, but are not hooked. They go maybe once a year. Atleast they don't gamble over $50.00. It is getting better.

 

How you choose to live your life, I fully support. What I don't support is when you use your own life choices as a standard with which to measure others. Your implication that I am somehow less loving to my brethren because I have a savings account for vacations is ludicrus!

Yes, people donate the cakes. But the persons participating need to "buy in" by paying a dollar, or whatever, to join the cake walk. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against cakewalks, church raffles, or Temple Beth Shalom Bingo Night. I simply disagree that the ends changes the means. If scripture forbids gambling (which it does not), then it does so across the board, without exception to nonprofit groups. And, for what it's worth, I buy fundraising raffle tickets all the time. The last thing I won was a night of lasertag. Woohoo!!!!

By that test, gambling is gambling, whether it's for a church carnival or not. And I disagree that someone who gambles is "losing" money. Someone who gambles is voluntarily giving up money to take part in something, with no guarantee of financial return. If someone is gambling for the primary purpose of getting their money back, then they've probably got a gambling problem, and that qualifies as abuse, which is a sin. And it doesn't matter if it's money, trading cards, or licorice whips. However, to assume that everyone who gambles is sinning, that is not scriptural. Not at all.

So what's the difference between licorice whips and, say, plastic chips? See how your rationalization simply doesn't work? It again falls back to the fact that scripture simply doesn't forbid gamlbling. It does, however, forbid abuse, and abuse of gambling is sinful.

 

What you said is true. However, the same can be (and often is) said for alcohol, food, etc. The fact that abuse is a sin is not in dispute. We all agree that abuse is sin. However, to presume that something is a sin for all because it is problematic for some is, again, not scripturally supportable or quantifiable.

I think that's another red herring. By that reckoning, Yahtzee is a sin, as would any game involving change, regardless of whether money is involved.

If one thinks it a bad idea, that's fine, and I support that. Just don't call it a sin by scriptural standards.

That's what the OP addresses. The sin issue aside, let each be convinced in his own mind, in the same manner as many other things that one person may consider unwise, but another may not.

True, but "beneficial" is subjective. If I have budgeted funds for a vacation, and part of that includes stopping off at a vegas casino to play a few hands of blackjack, who decides if that is beneficial? If I come home rested and relaxed from my vacation (which is the purpose of a vacation) then it was beneficial.

[/QUOTE]
I think to apply that to vegas gambling while forgoing church raffles is a bit of a stretch.

 

What you said is true. However, the same can be (and often is) said for alcohol, food, etc. The fact that abuse is a sin is not in dispute. We all agree that abuse is sin. However, to presume that something is a sin for all because it is problematic for some is, again, not scripturally supportable or quantifiable.
</font>[/QUOTE]But we have to eat. Alcohol may or may not be the same category as gambling. It depends on if one thinks gambling is a sin. I can see someone thinking gambling is sinful and drinking alcohol moderately is not. There are verses on drinking that we can go to (but that is a whole other topic debated mutliple times here so let's not go there -- please!). Since the Bible addresses drinking and not gambling, I think they are separate topics.

I think that's another red herring. By that reckoning, Yahtzee is a sin, as would any game involving change, regardless of whether money is involved.
</font>[/QUOTE]Good point, although we are not using money to play Yahtzee. When you invest money in gambling, you are betting on the chance of winning. When I play yahtzee, it might be nice to win but I am not betting on it. The money raises the stakes and causes it to be betting, and betting is an act of staking your claim on chance.

If one thinks it a bad idea, that's fine, and I support that. Just don't call it a sin by scriptural standards.</font>[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I didn't call it a sin.

</font>[/QUOTE]I think to apply that to vegas gambling while forgoing church raffles is a bit of a stretch. [/QUOTE]


Who says church raffles are okay? My church never does this.

I just don't see how gambling fits into a biblical outlook on life.

 

I messed up the quotes in the last post -- sorry.

Another point: when I mention light gambling becoming a problem, that is abuse, but abuse here is not the issue. The issue is gambling itself, even if it not considered abuse.

Here's a definition of 'gamble' from Merriam-Webster:
1 a : to play a game for money or property b : to bet on an uncertain outcome
2 : to stake something on a contingency : take a chance

 

The recurring thread seems to be the involvement of money. It seems to be that, if it involves money and the chance of winning it, then it's a sin (card games, yahtzee, etc).

In all of scripture I cannot find scripture that support that idea. I'll repeat my first post.

Scripture is silent on the issue of gambling. So we have to look at other scriptural implications. I'd look at it in two ways:

1 - Are you gambling for the primary intended purpose of making a profit on your money? Is your gambling proving to be a financial burden? Are you always looking forward to your "next win"? Are you intend on "beating the odds"? Do you "live to gamble".

If the answer to any of these is remotely yes, then this is a sure sign that a person has a gambling addiction, and is likely abusing gambling. It's an abuse of one's body and blessings, and we're scripturally warned against such abuse.

2 - Are you gambling for the primary purpose of having fun? Is the money you use coming from funds you would use for, or have budgeted for, recreation or vacationing? Is your mood soured if you continually or even occaisionally lose? If you never win a penny, do you remain unbothered by the money speant? Are you aware that the house always wins? Would people describe you as a generally responsible person financially? In addition to, or in lieu of, gambling, do you responsibly spend or budget money on, and take part in, other forms of liesure that do not involve gambling?

If the answer to all of these is "yes", then it's evidence that the person does not have a gambling problem, but simply enjoys the activity as liesure. This type of activity is not scripturally forbidden. Scripture does not discourage taking part in, or spending money in, liesurely activity. Nor does spending money on liesurely activity imply that one is a bad steward, so long as one's fnancial obligations (including giving) are being met.

However, any liesurely activity, including gambling, can carry the potential for abuse. A Christian should always keep oneslef in check to make sure that the liesure is not becoming something that is being worshipped.

 

JohnV, I think your argument only works if one can equate gambling with a leisurely activity. I think that's an assumption on your part. There is no objective basis for defining gambling as a leisurely activity comparable to paying to see a movie, for example. It is quite a different thing.

 

I agree with you, Marcia. The casinos sure take it seriously enough! They'll do anything to sucker people in.

 

Uh, the primary purpose I have gambled is for liesure. I think it's safe to say that most here on this board who don't see gambling as a sin per se see it in the same light as well.

Sure there is. I sit at a table, I put in a buck, I get a few cards, I see how cose I get to 21, I either win or lose. I do that for a few hours, and I'm entertained. I leave, and go see a show.

But as I've CLEARLY AND ABUNDANTLY SAID, if one doesn't view gambling as liesire, then it is possibly a sin. If, however, one uses it as a liesure activity, there is no way that it can be seen as sin scripturally. Plain and simple.

 

All I have to say is: How do our Christian lives differ from non-Christians if we do the same things they do. How can we be set apart if the people who see us in casinos and bars can't see anything in us that differs from their lives. What about our witness to the world? Why would they want to become a Christian if they can't tell any difference?
We are admonished not to conform to worldly things and not to cause our weaker brothers and sisters to stumble.
If a young Christian, who is not fully grounded in the word, sees a more mature brother gambling and assumes that it's okay, he may later develop an addiction to it. That may not be the elder's fault, but it was by following his example that the less mature person might be caught in a vice that he can't break.
We live in a world where even Christians don't want to take full responsibility for their actions and what their example might lead to. Our children need godly examples to follow. Much too often, they see parents who live just like the rest of the world except that they go to church once or twice a week.

 

Some casinos have resturants and have been told the food is good and inexpensive. we know Christians who eat there, but don't gamble. We don't eat there because we feel we are supporting the casino. Those are our beliefs, we don't care if others eat there

 

But just because you or anyone gambles for leisure does not make gambling a leisurely activity. That is not an objective basis for calling gambling a leisurely activity; it is a subjective one.

Just because there is not a bible verse against gambling does not mean there are not biblical principles that we can apply that show gambling is not a good idea, whether you see it as a leisurely activity or not.

We are not going to agree on this.

 

Johnv has made an excellent case throughout this thread.

I don't think gambling is a sin if one is trusting God for the outcome. After all...God is Sovereign and controls the roll of dice through His Providence...so if He controls the roll of the dice in order to bless you...who can call that a sin?

 

I decide if what I do is a liesurely activity, as surely as you, and only you, decide if what you do is a liesurely activity. You cannot condemn gambling as a clear sin in scripture. So let each be convinced in his own mind. If you abhor gambling, then don't gamble. If your brother has a gambling problem, then we should help him. But don't assume that guys getting together for a round of penny poker are engaging in sin.

Liesurely activities are highly subjective. Some go to golf. I hate golf, and would never consider than an appropriat vacation. That does not mean it's a sin. Of the devil, maybe, especially if you've ever seen me play. But a sin? No.

And there are none. There are, however, clear scriptural guidelines against abuse. Abuse of gambling, or any activity, is to be strictly addressed by the Christian.

As I said, let each be convinved to his own mind. I have no scriptural right to force you to gamble or accept it, though I do have a scriptural edict to refrain from abuse of my temple. Likewise, you have no scriptural right to label it a sin. You can dislike it all you like, and I can and will respect it. But don't call it a sin because you don't approve.

 

I know people use the example of the ones casting lots for Jesus' garment to say that gambling is wrong. But the Scripture doesn't even say those people were wrong for casting lots for Jesus' garment. Am I right?

 

JohnV, you have totally missed my points.

1. I never said gambling was a sin. So stop telling me to not call it a sin. You've said this twice to me when I never said it was a sin.

2. The issue of gambling being a leisurely activity is not whether it's a good leisurely activity or not, but whether it can in all honesty be considered a leisurely activity to begin with. You assume it is but I don't see a basis for that. You call it that, but that does not make it so.

You never responded to my points -- you just attacked straw men.

 

The Bible says nothing specifically about abortion. So does that make it OK? The Bible even seems to be pro-slavery in parts. Does that make a good excuse for slave trade? The Bible does not say we should not pollute the earth, sea and sky. So I guess, using that rationale, we are unbiblical to try to stop these things from happening. Trying to force our values on others and such.

The Bible does say, however, that we should love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And that we should love our neighbors as ourselves. All our heart, soul, mind and strength means all the time. Loving someone as we love ourself means all the time, too, unless, of course, in the name of relaxation you somehow equate that with quitting caring for yourself!

In what way does gambling show love of God or love of fellow man?

Or are we to be excused from following these two most foundational commands when we are having fun?

In what way does gambling build up the body or help others find Christ at all?

How we spend the precious minutes and hours we are granted on this earth is quite important. As Christians, our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit. Where we 'take Him' is something we are accountable for in His economy.

We are to live lives that makes others question us. Why do you do this or that? Why do you react as you do? Why aren't you the same as Joe Blow when this or that happened to him? After all, there is no way for us to give the answers we are commanded to be ready to give for the hope within us if no one asks questions. And if we are the same as the world, who is going to ask those most important of all questions?

In what way does gambling help people see Christ in you?

 

"The Bible says nothing specifically about abortion."

It does..."Thou shalt not murder."

 

King James, I agree with you there and do feel abortion is murder. However, the argument is one which those who claim Christianity use to justify abortion. You see, it does not state specifically that the fetus is alive or that murder pertains to the unborn. You and I both know these arguments are fallacious, but I only brought it up as part of a much broader argument regarding subjects the Bible does not appear to specifically address, such as gambling.

 

Hi Helen, I understand.

The thing with gambling I think is it's a personal responsibility thing. If someone gambles and wins, they are not responsible for all those others who lost. We are all accountable for ourselves. Everybody put their own money in and nobody forced them to do it.

However, when it comes to an addiction...then gambling should be avoided. I myself don't gamble (maybe on sports once or twice a year). I hate to lose my hard earned money.