Gen 50:20

[Winman]

winman


17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.


29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You will not get by these two to start with

Whom he did Foreknow.......not what he saw ahead of time.....whom he did foreknow

predestination proceeds calling.....see it


In the Acts 15 verse God's works are known to Him before the world was. What he has purposed has come to pass, because he has ordained it to be so.

Foreknow means exactly what it says, to know something (or someone) before it actually happens. Strong's defines it as to know something beforehand. These verses support my view, not refute it. And 1 Pet 1:2 says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. It does not say we are elect according to some personal relationship (impossible if you did not exist), but on God's knowledge beforehand.

You have in no way refuted mine (and many others) view, these verses argue in support of it.

 

[jbh28]

Foreknow means exactly what it says, to know something (or someone) before it actually happens. Strong's defines it as to know something beforehand. These verses support my view, not refute it. And 1 Pet 1:2 says we are elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. It does not say we are elect according to some personal relationship (impossible if you did not exist), but on God's knowledge beforehand.

You have in no way refuted mine (and many others) view, these verses argue in support of it.

There is not a single verse in Scripture that says that God choose by foreknowing that you would believe. You even admitted that "foreknow" can be "someone" which is exactly what it means in Romans 8. Also, the term "know" goes beyond just knowledge. And yes, "foreknow" can mean to have a personal relationship. The know before hand. God isn't bound by time. He can foreknow as the passage says.

 

[Winman]

There is not a single verse in Scripture that says that God choose by foreknowing that you would believe. You even admitted that "foreknow" can be "someone" which is exactly what it means in Romans 8. Also, the term "know" goes beyond just knowledge. And yes, "foreknow" can mean to have a personal relationship. The know before hand. God isn't bound by time. He can foreknow as the passage says.

The word foreknow is proginōskō. Let's look at the verses where this word is used and see if they show a personal relationship, or rather speak of knowing something beforehand.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There is no clear indication in this verse that it is speaking of a personal relationship.

1 Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Here, the word proginōskō is translated "foreordained". No mention of a personal relationship. In fact, it favors simply determining something before the foundation of the world, but making it known now.

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Here, the word proginōskō is translated "know before". This is obviously speaking of knowledge of doctrine and not a personal relationship.

That's it. These are all the times proginōskō is used in scripture. None of them speak of God having a personal relationship with us before the foundation of the world. They simply speak of knowing something beforehand. In fact, this is the definition given in Strongs.

1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate

See any mention of having a personal relationship with the elect before the foundation of the world? Knowledge is not the same as personal relationship.

Truth is, neither side can prove their view from the few times this word is used in scripture. That said, in the few verses it occurs, it never speaks of having a personal relationship, but simply knowing something beforehand.

Edit- A passage that supports my view and argues against the Ref/Cal view is Galatians 4:8-9

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Note vs. 8, it says we did not know God before. How can you have a personal relationship with someone and not know it?

Note vs. 9, it says "But now" we are known of God. We aren't known of God until we believe, and this is the word "known" that speaks of a personal, intimate relationship. Therefore, God could not have had a personal relationship with us before the foundation of the world, although he could clearly know who would believe in the future.

So, this passage clearly favors the evidence toward those that believe God had knowledge beforehand who would believe, and away from those that insist it is speaking of a personal relationship.

 

[Iconoclast]

The word foreknow is proginōskō. Let's look at the verses where this word is used and see if they show a personal relationship, or rather speak of knowing something beforehand.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

There is no clear indication in this verse that it is speaking of a personal relationship.

1 Pet 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Here, the word proginōskō is translated "foreordained". No mention of a personal relationship. In fact, it favors simply determining something before the foundation of the world, but making it known now.

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Here, the word proginōskō is translated "know before". This is obviously speaking of knowledge of doctrine and not a personal relationship.

That's it. These are all the times proginōskō is used in scripture. None of them speak of God having a personal relationship with us before the foundation of the world. They simply speak of knowing something beforehand. In fact, this is the definition given in Strongs.



See any mention of having a personal relationship with the elect before the foundation of the world? Knowledge is not the same as personal relationship.

Truth is, neither side can prove their view from the few times this word is used in scripture. That said, in the few verses it occurs, it never speaks of having a personal relationship, but simply knowing something beforehand.

Edit- A passage that supports my view and argues against the Ref/Cal view is Galatians 4:8-9

Gal 4:8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Note vs. 8, it says we did not know God before. How can you have a personal relationship with someone and not know it?

Note vs. 9, it says "But now" we are known of God. We aren't known of God until we believe, and this is the word "known" that speaks of a personal, intimate relationship. Therefore, God could not have had a personal relationship with us before the foundation of the world, although he could clearly know who would believe in the future.

So, this passage clearly favors the evidence toward those that believe God had knowledge beforehand who would believe, and away from those that insist it is speaking of a personal relationship.

You are looking at the verses and not seeing the answer

Whom...not what...and you respond by saying it is not speaking of a person


Adam knew his wife and she conceived.......do you think he did not understand who eve was?

If you look at the verses and miss it...you will not come to truth on this.

 

[convicted1]

Actually Willis, most non-Cals/Arms believe God in his foreknowledge saw who would trust Christ and elected these persons.

Joseph's brothers did not plan on selling Joseph into slavery, their original intent was to KILL him. God did not tempt them to do this. But we see several good things happen that altered the outcome. First, Reuben became convicted and said they should not kill him, but throw him in a pit, Reuben's intention to return later and rescue Joseph and return him to his father. This was good, but it was not God's plan. Then they sat down to eat which prevented Reuben from rescuing Joseph, but also the caravan came by. Only then did Judah get the idea to sell Joseph. So, we see God intervening to bring about his purpose by doing good.

Well, here is one non-Cal/Arm that doesn't believe that God used foreknowledge to elect people. It does give us the "warm and fuzzy" feeling inside, but in this stance, it appears that we did something to garner salvation...IOW, we actually "did" something. I know we have to believe, but God must first call(I know you agree with this). I could do nothing until God called me, and then, He set up a Godly sorrow in my life, that led me down a trail of repentance. Now, I do believe that repenting falls in our lap. Not stating it is a work, but Jesus did state that except you repent, you shall all likewise perish(Luke 13:3,5). When we repent of being a sinner, its not doing a work to garner salvation, but rather, following a command from God.

 

[Winman]

You are looking at the verses and not seeing the answer

Whom...not what...and you respond by saying it is not speaking of a person


Adam knew his wife and she conceived.......do you think he did not understand who eve was?

If you look at the verses and miss it...you will not come to truth on this.

You can know about people and not have an intimate relationship with them. The word foreknow does not carry the meaning of a relationship. However the word known in Gal 4:9 does carry the meaning of a personal relationship and shows that God does not have this intimate relationship until we are saved.

If you miss this you will not come to the truth.

 

[Winman]

Well, here is one non-Cal/Arm that doesn't believe that God used foreknowledge to elect people. It does give us the "warm and fuzzy" feeling inside, but in this stance, it appears that we did something to garner salvation...IOW, we actually "did" something. I know we have to believe, but God must first call(I know you agree with this). I could do nothing until God called me, and then, He set up a Godly sorrow in my life, that led me down a trail of repentance. Now, I do believe that repenting falls in our lap. Not stating it is a work, but Jesus did state that except you repent, you shall all likewise perish(Luke 13:3,5). When we repent of being a sinner, its not doing a work to garner salvation, but rather, following a command from God.

Willis, Calvin believed the elect are chosen OUTSIDE Christ and then given to him. Those like me who believe God chose us because in foreknowledge believe we are chosen IN Christ. We have no merit whatsoever, Jesus is the ELECT ONE. We are only elect because we are baptized into his body.

The other view actually sees God as choosing you because of something good in you, although they will deny this. Nevertheless, there must be some reason he chose you outside Christ.

God didn't choose us because he favored us for some unknown reason, he chose his Son Jesus, and everyone who is IN Jesus is therefore also chosen. We are chosen on HIS MERIT, not our own.

 

[webdog]

Point to consider...there is no "fore"know or "pre"destine (linear phrases) with an omnitemporal God. Clearly anthropomorphic language used by men in describing something we cannot wrap our minds around.

Point 2 to consider...the "elect" are referring to jewish believers in context, not gentile believers.

Point 3 to consider...the "elect" are ALWAYS in Christ already, not elect to BE in Christ...IN Christ.

 

[jbh28]

Point to consider...there is no "fore"know or "pre"destine (linear phrases) with an omnitemporal God. Clearly anthropomorphic language used by men in describing something we cannot wrap our minds around.

In other words, eternally elect.

Point 2 to consider...the "elect" are referring to jewish believers in context, not gentile believers.

not always and not in the passages where election is referring to salvation. Also, salvation is the same for the Jew and gentile.

Point 3 to consider...the "elect" are ALWAYS in Christ already, not elect to BE in Christ...IN Christ.

No, you are elected in Christ, but you are not always in Christ. You are not born saved.

 

[webdog]

In other words, eternally elect.

In other words, no

not always and not in the passages where election is referring to salvation. Also, salvation is the same for the Jew and gentile.

I beg to differ on the first point.

No, you are elected in Christ, but you are not always in Christ. You are not born saved.

This is what you believe, but no Scripture to support it. I would like to read just one Scripture where someone who is "elect" is not in Christ yet.

 

[jbh28]

In other words, no

No, eternal just as I said

I beg to differ on the first point.

No, that's exactly correct. Salvation is the same for Jews and Gentiles.

This is what you believe, but no Scripture to support it. I would like to read just one Scripture where someone who is "elect" is not in Christ yet.

Any Scripture to support you are born saved?
Ephesians says we were chosen "before the foundation of the world." Now, unless you were alive and saved "before the foundation of the world," then you were not saved, but already chosen.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,
[QUOTEYou can know about people and not have an intimate relationship with them. The word foreknow does not carry the meaning of a relationship. However the word known in Gal 4:9 does carry the meaning of a personal relationship and shows that God does not have this intimate relationship until we are saved.

If you miss this you will not come to the truth.
][/QUOTE]

Winman.....we are not speaking of humans...but God
When God says;

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is not inserted into Romans as a filler to make the letter longer. What explanation you are offering makes no sense.

With your wrong use of foreknowledge....God would have the same "knowledge" of all men as he knows everything....and yet here he speaks of an elect or chosen group that he has entered into covenant with,predestined,called,justified , glorified.



As far as Gal 4. I have not missed it, it agrees with what i have discussed many times previous.......God has to make himself known to those he saves.
Paul...states the results first...they are believers who know God....but then he clarifies it in case any would twist it and explains....are rather known by God.

 

[preacher4truth]

No, eternal just as I said
No, that's exactly correct. Salvation is the same for Jews and Gentiles.


Any Scripture to support you are born saved?
Ephesians says we were chosen "before the foundation of the world." Now, unless you were alive and saved "before the foundation of the world," then you were not saved, but already chosen.

Good stuff. Here's more that show webdog and others these truths:

Someone who was elect, who was not yet saved? The apostle Paul, Galatians 1:15-16 "But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,"

Elect and yet "unsaved" at that point. So also is every true believer. Read on:

Also, it is the Holy Spirit who sets us apart, sanctifies us, 1 Peter 1:1-2; Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

Here we see God setting apart the elect by foreknowledge, by the Spirit.

One other elect, but not yet "saved."

Rom 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,


- Grace and Peace to His

 

[Winman]

No, eternal just as I said
No, that's exactly correct. Salvation is the same for Jews and Gentiles.


Any Scripture to support you are born saved?
Ephesians says we were chosen "before the foundation of the world." Now, unless you were alive and saved "before the foundation of the world," then you were not saved, but already chosen.

You are not representing the scriptures accurately here. What does Ephesians 1:4 say?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The scriptures say we are chosen "in him" meaning "in Christ". Only a believer is "in Christ".

So you have two possibilities here, unless you can name another;

#1 You existed before the foundation of the world and believed in Christ and were chosen "in him".

#2 God in his foreknowledge saw believers "in him" and chose these persons before the foundation of the world.

Which is it?

To be "in Christ" or "in him" you must believe. This is shown in scripture.

Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

When Jesus prayed in the garden before he was taken and crucified, he prayed for his disciples he was leaving in the world. But he also prayed for all persons "which shall believe" (future tense) through their word. Now notice in verse 21 Jesus says he does this that they "may be" (future tense) one "in us". You are not "in Christ" until you believe on Jesus.

 

[preacher4truth]

You are not representing the scriptures accurately here. What does Ephesians 1:4 say?

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The scriptures say we are chosen "in him" meaning "in Christ". Only a believer is "in Christ".

So you have two possibilities here, unless you can name another;

#1 You existed before the foundation of the world and believed in Christ and were chosen "in him".

#2 God in his foreknowledge saw believers "in him" and chose these persons before the foundation of the world.

Which is it?

To be "in Christ" or "in him" you must believe. This is shown in scripture.

Jn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

When Jesus prayed in the garden before he was taken and crucified, he prayed for his disciples he was leaving in the world. But he also prayed for all persons who "which shall believe" (future tense) through their word. Now notice in verse 21 Jesus says he does this that they "may be" (future tense) one "in us". You are not "in Christ" until you believe on Jesus.

None, not even one who is elect by the foreknowledge of God will be lost, they are set apart by His Spirit and are safe, and He knows who are His. Foreknowledge doesn't mean He saw into the future that we would believe then said OK He'll save us. The purpose in election is in Romans 9:11; "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman,

So you have two possibilities here, unless you can name another;

#1 You existed before the foundation of the world and believed in Christ and were chosen "in him".

#2 God in his foreknowledge saw believers "in him" and chose these persons before the foundation of the world.

Which is it?

there are more than your two possibilities
1] We did not exist before the world, but only in the mind of God.
we all come born in the first adam,dead in sin
2]God saw mankind as fallen and dead in Adam all deserving of hell.
He in mercy decreed to FOREKNOW a multitude of sinners, giving them to the Son.
3] these guilty sinners whom God foreknows , the Son comes to save them.
4] the perfect work of the cross is effectually applied to these foreknown sinners , through God's ordained means, they are enabled to repent and believe the gospel...by the Spirit of God.

 

[Winman]

None, not even one who is elect by the foreknowledge of God will be lost, they are set apart by His Spirit and are safe, and He knows who are His. Foreknowledge doesn't mean He saw into the future that we would believe then said OK He'll save us. The purpose in election is in Romans 9:11; "for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

You overlook the obvious, he chose Jacob because Jacob answered (believed) when called.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Those who obey by faith and answer the calling are the chosen. This is clearly shown in Mat 22.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

The king (God) called these men, but they would not obey and come. Those who did obey and come in faith were chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Which came first, being called, or being chosen? This parable is quite clear, those who did not obey the king and come when he called were destroyed. Those who obeyed and came were chosen.

 

[preacher4truth]

You overlook the obvious, he chose Jacob because Jacob answered (believed) when called.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

Those who obey by faith and answer the calling are the chosen. This is clearly shown in Mat 22.

Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

The king (God) called these men, but they would not obey and come. Those who did obey and come in faith were chosen.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Which came first, being called, or being chosen? This parable is quite clear, those who did not obey the king and come when he called were destroyed. Those who obeyed and came were chosen.

Not even close friend.

The call came prior to the obedience, and in 1 Peter 1:2, who is it that enables us to be obedient? Well, it is the Holy Spirit. Same thing with Jacob, Abraham, and all His elect. It is because of God who calls, and He calls before one has ever done either good or bad. Why? So it is ALL according to Him and His purpose, not your work nor mine. You are incorrect Winman.

- Peace

 

[Winman]

Winman,


there are more than your two possibilities
1] We did not exist before the world, but only in the mind of God.

Yes, this is called foreknowledge.

we all come born in the first adam,dead in sin
2]God saw mankind as fallen and dead in Adam all deserving of hell.

All are dead in sin and deserving of hell, agreed.

He in mercy decreed to FOREKNOW a multitude of sinners, giving them to the Son.

He foreknows who will believe and gave them to the Son, yes.

3] these guilty sinners whom God foreknows , the Son comes to save them.

Agreed.

4] the perfect work of the cross is effectually applied to these foreknown sinners , through God's ordained means, they are enabled to repent and believe the gospel...by the Spirit of God.

I would say the perfect work of the cross is effectually applied to these foreknown BELIEVERS.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, this is called foreknowledge.



All are dead in sin and deserving of hell, agreed.




He foreknows who will believe and gave them to the Son, yes.



Agreed.




I would say the perfect work of the cross is effectually applied to these foreknown BELIEVERS.

is is the BASIS of your salvation resting on the Will of God, or the will of man?