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Gender Inclusive Updates ...

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alexander284

alexander284

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Gender Inclusive Updates ...

When an existing Bible translation is updated, and the update results in "gender inclusive" language, how do you view it?

In other words, do you view it as a positive change, or as a disappointment?
 
Deacon

Deacon

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Positive
…but I think it is important for the translation to identify where the “and sisters” is used.

Rob
 
Lodic

Lodic

Well-Known Member
I am very disappointed with the translations that cave to the gender inclusive language. If the original text used "brothers and sisters", then our translations should have used the same language from the beginning. We are smart enough to understand that where the older translations use the term "brothers" and "mankind", it refers to brothers and sisters in Christ, and to everyone.

Personally, I don't see any good reason for those updates. At best, the gender inclusive language gives some passages an awkward reading. For example, Romans 2:9 in the NASB Legacy Bible reads "There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of mankind who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek". NASB95 used "man" which is a better reading. I really don't like the new rendering of Micah 6:8 as "He has told you, a human, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?" I much prefer "He has told you, O man, what is good...".

I read the following quote from a review of the NASB Legacy Bible recently. "In Psalm 19:5, the quest for gender neutrality subtly appears to be more important to the translators than the accuracy of the translation itself. This verse is unnecessarily changed. And it is changed in a way that allows it to be interpreted as supporting mixed-gender marriage or de facto gender fluidity." Psalm 19:5 is changed to read "Which is like a groom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices like a strong person to run his course." Of course the bridegroom is a man. A groom is one who literally grooms horses. The entire article is at this link - NASB 2020 Update News and Review. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
R

RipponRedeaux

Well-Known Member
Micah 6:8

NIV, LEB, NABRE, NRSV : mortal
CSB, EHV : mankind
ISV : mortal man
NCV : human

Psalm 19:5

NIV, EHV, ISV, NCV : like a champion
CSB, NLT : like an athlete
CEB : like a warrior

Romans 2:9

NIV, CSB, CEB, ISV, LEB, MOUNCE, NABRE : every human being
EHV : every person
NCB, NCV, NLT, NRSV : everyone
 
Deacon

Deacon

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Lodic said:
I read the following quote from a review of the NASB Legacy Bible recently. "In Psalm 19:5, the quest for gender neutrality subtly appears to be more important to the translators than the accuracy of the translation itself. This verse is unnecessarily changed. And it is changed in a way that allows it to be interpreted as supporting mixed-gender marriage or de facto gender fluidity." Psalm 19:5 is changed to read "Which is like a groom coming out of his chamber; It rejoices like a strong person to run his course." Of course the bridegroom is a man. A groom is one who literally grooms horses. The entire article is at this link - NASB 2020 Update News and Review. As they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Click to expand...
Common to MacArthur and his commentaries he forces his point of view rather than illuminating the difficulties of translating the passage.

If the NASB desired to make this verse gender neutral they did a very poor job of it.
No, they were using an dis-gendered definition of the Hebrew word for "might one" [not cis-gendered ;-)]

גִּבּוֹר - a mighty one— a person noted for physical strength; often related to fighting ability.

Ge 10:8 לִֽהְי֥וֹת גִּבֹּ֖ר בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ - ...he became a mighty one (or mighty man) on the earth
2 Sa 1:19 הַצְּבִי֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל עַל־בָּמוֹתֶ֖יךָ חָלָ֑ל אֵ֖יךְ נָפְל֥וּ גִבּוֹרִֽים׃ ...How the mighty have fallen
Joel 3:9 הָעִ֙ירוּ֙ הַגִּבּוֹרִ֔ים יִגְּשׁ֣וּ יַֽעֲל֔וּ כֹּ֖ל אַנְשֵׁ֥י הַ ...Prepare for holy war; stir up the warriors! (or mighty men)
Amos 2:14 וְגִבּ֖וֹר לֹא־יְמַלֵּ֥ט נַפְשֽׁוֹ׃ ...the strong will not strengthen his power, nor the warrior save his life.

I personally like Robert Alter's recent translation (2019)

For the Sun he set up tent
and he like a groom from his canopy comes,
exults like a warrior running his course.​

Note: the description in the last stanza is describing actions of the Sun.

Lastly, if the NASB wanted to pursue gender-neutrality here, why would they include the masculine pronoun there?
The last word of the stanza ("course") has no pronoun attached to it but in translation it borrows its pronoun from the second couplet ("his canopy").

No, this is MacArthur's groupies simply acting pompous again to push sales of his Legacy Bible.

Rob
 
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Lodic

Lodic

Well-Known Member
Deacon said:
Common to MacArthur and his commentaries he forces his point of view rather than illuminating the difficulties of translating the passage.

If the NASB desired to make this verse gender neutral they did a very poor job of it.
No, they were using an dis-gendered definition of the Hebrew word for "might one" [not cis-gendered ;-)]

גִּבּוֹר - a mighty one— a person noted for physical strength; often related to fighting ability.

Ge 10:8 לִֽהְי֥וֹת גִּבֹּ֖ר בָּאָֽרֶץ׃ - ...he became a mighty one (or mighty man) on the earth
2 Sa 1:19 הַצְּבִי֙ יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל עַל־בָּמוֹתֶ֖יךָ חָלָ֑ל אֵ֖יךְ נָפְל֥וּ גִבּוֹרִֽים׃ ...How the mighty have fallen
Joel 3:9 הָעִ֙ירוּ֙ הַגִּבּוֹרִ֔ים יִגְּשׁ֣וּ יַֽעֲל֔וּ כֹּ֖ל אַנְשֵׁ֥י הַ ...Prepare for holy war; stir up the warriors! (or mighty men)
Amos 2:14 וְגִבּ֖וֹר לֹא־יְמַלֵּ֥ט נַפְשֽׁוֹ׃ ...the strong will not strengthen his power, nor the warrior save his life.

I personally like Robert Alter's recent translation (2019)

For the Sun he set up tent
and he like a groom from his canopy comes,
exults like a warrior running his course.​

Note: the description in the last stanza is describing actions of the Sun.

Lastly, if the NASB wanted to pursue gender-neutrality here, why would they include the masculine pronoun there?
The last word of the stanza ("course") has no pronoun attached to it but in translation it borrows its pronoun from the second couplet ("his canopy").

No, this is MacArthur's groupies simply acting pompous again to push sales of his Legacy Bible.

Rob
Click to expand...
I didn't even realize that MacArthur was behind the Legacy NASB. I appreciate your insight. It seems like sometimes the translators are more concerned about gender neutrality than accuracy. Which translation do you believe is the closest to using the original language?
 
alexander284

alexander284

Well-Known Member
I like the way that the CSB renders Psalm 19:5 ...

"It is like a bridegroom coming from his home;
It rejoices like an athlete running a course."
 
Deacon

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lodic said:
Which translation do you believe is the closest to using the original language?
Click to expand...
Translations are never perfect, each one has strong aspects and weak ones.
I’m enjoying the NASB currently; the original NASB was the first version I regularly used upon become a Christian in the 1970’s.
Every translation team makes different choices and I don’t believe nit-picking over certain verses is very beneficial.
My approach is to attempt to determine why a translation chose the words they used … and sometimes to try and form a translation of my own.

For a long time didn’t like gender-inclusive versions, I wanted to examine each translational proposition myself.
But I’ve changed my mind. As a some-time adult teacher in church, I think the identification of gender issues helps the students to understand the mechanics of a translation.

Rob
 
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alexander284

alexander284

Well-Known Member
alexander284 said:
Yes, I'm coming around on the gender inclusive issue, myself.
Click to expand...

I teach an adult Sunday School class at my local SBC.

And the Sunday School materials utilize the CSB (no surprise).

It's taken some time, but I'm becoming accustomed to using the CSB on a regular basis (for this very reason).

And I can see, firsthand, that the gender inclusive language used in the CSB is reasonable (in my personal opinion, of course.)
 
alexander284

alexander284

Well-Known Member
Deacon said:
Translations are never perfect, each one has strong aspects and weak ones.
I’m enjoying the NASB currently; the original NASB was the first version I regularly used upon become a Christian in the 1970’s.
Every translation team makes different choices and I don’t believe nit-picking over certain verses is very beneficial.
My approach is to attempt to determine why a translation chose the words they used … and sometimes to try and form a translation of my own.

For a long time didn’t like gender-inclusive versions, I wanted to examine each translational proposition myself.
But I’ve changed my mind. As a some-time adult teacher in church, I think the identification of gender issues helps the students to understand the mechanics of a translation.

Rob
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe it's important to be willing to change one's mind in regard to this subject matter.
 
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