It isn't an argument. It's a direct question to you, which you refuse to answer.
Why are you lifting up humans as the ones who cause faith, which effects God to save them?
Please answer the question.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
General Redemption.
- Thread starter 37818
- Start date
- Status
Why are you lifting up humans as the ones who cause faith, which effects God to save them?
Please answer the question.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
The Holy Bible actually teaches this, in places like John 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:1-6; 4:10; 2 Peter 3:9; 1 John 2:2, etc
So you're a universalist, based on a few sentences read out of context?
General Baptists believe in a “general atonement” ie Christ literally died for all mankind everywhere even those in hell, and man has the ability to choose God. They also believe that you could lose your salvation
Particular Baptists believe in limited atonement ie Christ only died for the elect. Man is at the mercy of God ie until God does something for us (the new birth) we can not repent and believe. Since salvation is a work of God not man, they believe in the perserverance of the saints or eternal security.
Particular Baptists believe in limited atonement ie Christ only died for the elect. Man is at the mercy of God ie until God does something for us (the new birth) we can not repent and believe. Since salvation is a work of God not man, they believe in the perserverance of the saints or eternal security.
37818
Well-Known Member
The work of the Spirit is sanctification prior to faith which is prior to salvation. 1 Peter 1:2, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.
37818
Well-Known Member
Again you resort to a false strawman argument.
Look at the two verses again please.
1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2
...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.
And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
Oh, that's right, they were mistranslated.
They do not mean everyone gets saved.
The verses mean Christ died for all people.
Why then does God judge all if only the elect are the ones Christ suffered for?
God is the One who chooses upon whom He will have mercy.
His thoughts are higher than ours.
It is not just one way or the other.
1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2
...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.
And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
Oh, that's right, they were mistranslated.
They do not mean everyone gets saved.
The verses mean Christ died for all people.
Why then does God judge all if only the elect are the ones Christ suffered for?
God is the One who chooses upon whom He will have mercy.
His thoughts are higher than ours.
It is not just one way or the other.
Nope, I take universal atonement to it's conclusion.
1) Christ died for all mankind, 1 Timothy 2:6
2) This sacrifice "purchased (bought)" all mankind, thus Christ became the propitiation for the whole world, all of mankind. 1 John 2:2, 2 Peter 2:1.
3) Thus Christ made provision for the redemption all all humankind.
4) However, only those individuals God transfers into Christ, by reason of crediting their faith as righteousness, are redeemed.
No need to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Was Jesus death and payment not enough? Was it impotent to save all?
When somebody pays for your meal is it paid for or can you deny that it happened and therefore make it not so? No, you cannot. The payment is already made and you owe no debt. If you choose to pay yourself, you are merely adding an additional tip to the waitperson.
Do you see how that works. If Jesus atonement is universal for all, then everyone's payment has been made. No rejection by a single person will ever undo the payment made. God would be unjust to send even one human to hell, because no human owed any debt for sin. That is the teaching of general redemption at its end.
37818
Well-Known Member
I do not believe in universal atonement. I believe in the Biblical general redemption which has the particular redemption in it.
37818,
Here we partially agree. We are sanctified from eternity past as part of God's decree. However the work of the Spirit is totally crucial in all aspects of our salvation, it is not limited to one single thing.
It seems like you are seeing more of it as you continue to study it out.
PInk On Hebrews2;
CHAPTER - CHRIST SUPERIOR TO ANGELS.
PREVIOUS CHAPTER - NEXT CHAPTER - HELP - FB - TWITTER - GR VIDEOS - GR FORUMS - GR YOUTUBE
(
How this should endear Him to us! “All of one,” is very abstract, and for this reason not easy to define concretely. “Observe that it is only of sanctified persons that this is said. Christ and the sanctified ones are all of one company, men together in the same position before God; but the idea goes a little further. It is not of one and the same Father; had it been so, it could not have been said, ‘He is not ashamed to call them brethren.’ He could not then do otherwise than call them brethren. If we say ‘of the same mass’ the expression may be pushed too far, as though He and others were of the same nature as children of Adam, sinners together. In this case Jesus would have to call every man His brother;
whereas it is only the children whom God hath given Him, ‘sanctified’ ones, that He so calls. But He and the sanctified ones are all as men in the same nature and position together before God. When I say ‘the same’ it is not in the same state of sin, but the contrary, for they are the Sanctifier and the sanctified, but in the same proof of human position as it is before God as sanctified to Him; the same as far forth as man when He, as the sanctified One is before God” (Mr.
J.N. Darby).
Though the above quotation is worded somewhat vaguely, nevertheless we believe it approximates closely to the thought of the Spirit. They, Christ and His people, are “all of one.” Perhaps we might say, All of one class or company. If Christ were to be the Savior of men, He must Himself be Man.
This is what the quotations from the Old Testament, which immediately follow, go to show. We do believe, however, that the “all of one” is a little fuller in scope than that brought out by Mr. Darby’s comments. The remainder of Hebrews 2 seems to show it also has reference to the oneness in condition between the Sanctifier and the sanctified, i.e., in this world.
The Shepherd went before the sheep ( John 10:4): the path they follow is the same He trod. Thus, “all of one” in position, in sufferings, in trials, in dependency upon God. “For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one.”
But what is meant by “He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified”?
The Sanctifier is Christ Himself, the sanctified are the many sons who are being brought to glory. “The source and power of sanctification are in the Son of God our Savior. We who were to be brought unto glory were far off from God, in a state of condemnation and death. What could be more different than our natural condition and the glory of God which we are awaiting? Condemned on account of our transgressions of the law, we lived in sin, alienated from God, and without His presence of light and love. We were dead; and by ‘dead’ I do not mean that modern fancy which explains death to mean cessation of existence, but that continuous, active, self-developing state of misery and corruption into which the sinner has fallen by his disobedience. Dead in trespasses and sins, wherein we walked; dead while living in pleasing self ( Ephesians 2:1,2, 1 Timothy 5:6).
Here we partially agree. We are sanctified from eternity past as part of God's decree. However the work of the Spirit is totally crucial in all aspects of our salvation, it is not limited to one single thing.
It seems like you are seeing more of it as you continue to study it out.
PInk On Hebrews2;
CHAPTER - CHRIST SUPERIOR TO ANGELS.
PREVIOUS CHAPTER - NEXT CHAPTER - HELP - FB - TWITTER - GR VIDEOS - GR FORUMS - GR YOUTUBE
(
How this should endear Him to us! “All of one,” is very abstract, and for this reason not easy to define concretely. “Observe that it is only of sanctified persons that this is said. Christ and the sanctified ones are all of one company, men together in the same position before God; but the idea goes a little further. It is not of one and the same Father; had it been so, it could not have been said, ‘He is not ashamed to call them brethren.’ He could not then do otherwise than call them brethren. If we say ‘of the same mass’ the expression may be pushed too far, as though He and others were of the same nature as children of Adam, sinners together. In this case Jesus would have to call every man His brother;
whereas it is only the children whom God hath given Him, ‘sanctified’ ones, that He so calls. But He and the sanctified ones are all as men in the same nature and position together before God. When I say ‘the same’ it is not in the same state of sin, but the contrary, for they are the Sanctifier and the sanctified, but in the same proof of human position as it is before God as sanctified to Him; the same as far forth as man when He, as the sanctified One is before God” (Mr.
J.N. Darby).
Though the above quotation is worded somewhat vaguely, nevertheless we believe it approximates closely to the thought of the Spirit. They, Christ and His people, are “all of one.” Perhaps we might say, All of one class or company. If Christ were to be the Savior of men, He must Himself be Man.
This is what the quotations from the Old Testament, which immediately follow, go to show. We do believe, however, that the “all of one” is a little fuller in scope than that brought out by Mr. Darby’s comments. The remainder of Hebrews 2 seems to show it also has reference to the oneness in condition between the Sanctifier and the sanctified, i.e., in this world.
The Shepherd went before the sheep ( John 10:4): the path they follow is the same He trod. Thus, “all of one” in position, in sufferings, in trials, in dependency upon God. “For both He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one.”
But what is meant by “He that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified”?
The Sanctifier is Christ Himself, the sanctified are the many sons who are being brought to glory. “The source and power of sanctification are in the Son of God our Savior. We who were to be brought unto glory were far off from God, in a state of condemnation and death. What could be more different than our natural condition and the glory of God which we are awaiting? Condemned on account of our transgressions of the law, we lived in sin, alienated from God, and without His presence of light and love. We were dead; and by ‘dead’ I do not mean that modern fancy which explains death to mean cessation of existence, but that continuous, active, self-developing state of misery and corruption into which the sinner has fallen by his disobedience. Dead in trespasses and sins, wherein we walked; dead while living in pleasing self ( Ephesians 2:1,2, 1 Timothy 5:6).
If you believe in general redemption, you believe in universal atonement. They are synonymous.
You cannot logically toss limited atonement under universal atonement nor can you toss particular redemption under general redemption. They are separate thoughts that cannot be logically juxtaposed. You are speaking without reason.
Great intellectual argument can not deny the plain speech of scripture.
1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2
...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.
And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10 and 1 John 2:2
...we trust in the living God,
who is the Saviour of all men,
specially of those that believe.
And he is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only,
but also for the sins of the whole world.
37818
Well-Known Member
If you are unable to know they are not the same. You have done nothing more than repeat a strawman lie. You have not proven anything here.
You are being irrational here. Can you present a Biblical truth simply? Not just an unBiblical assertion?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I have neither propped up a "straw man". nor have I in any way intended to do so.
I've simply identified what I see to be a problem with this belief and teaching...
To me, it leaves out Scripture that deals with what actually happened at the cross, and for whom it happened.
Please allow me to demonstrate:
" But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement." ( Romans 5:8-11 ).
Here I see the following:
8) God has commended His love towards believers ( the "us" and "we" in this passage that I've highlighted in order to show the reader to whom this passage is addressed ), in that, while believers ( God's elect, see Titus 1:1 and many other passages that describe who the elect are ) were yet sinners, Christ died for them.
9) Much more then, being ( as in already a done deal ) now justified by His blood, believers shall be saved from wrath through Him ( Christ, who died for "us" in verse 8 ).
10) For if when believers were enemies ( of God, see Colossians 1:21 ), believers ( we ) were reconciled to God by...what? The death of His Son is what reconciled them to Him...much more, being ( already a done deal ) reconciled, believers shall be saved by His life.
11) and not only, but believers also joy ( take joy or rejoice ) in God through their Lord Jesus Christ, by whom believers have now received the atonement.
Contextually, I've taken this passage and replaced the words, "us", "we" and "our" with who it is actually addressing, and I've also underlined what I think are important events that happened for them according to this passage.
With this in mind, what I've stated in my post # 35 is what I see would be some of the ramifications for this teaching or belief, in my opinion...
No more, and no less, my friend.
Last edited:
True, but scripture, read in context makes a huge difference and you, sir, ignore context in order to create a doctrine not endorsed by scripture. You do this and thus you lead little ones astray. That should strike fear in your soul and you should be looking around for the millstone nearby.
You willfully choose to ignore. That is on you. You choose to be unreasonable and throw away reason. That is on you.
You say he has free will now.
- Status