General Revelation vs. Special Revelation

[Marcia]

Marcia,

And I agree with you as far as you have taken the passage. Most men DO reject the revelation God gives them. But notice, the passage does NOT address the of those who DO receive the revelation, does it? It shows the UNBELIEF option -- not the BELIEF option. If you go with the UNBELIEF option, you would have to say that even the Jews weren't saved, wouldn't you?

skypair

The Jews in the OT had special revelation - revelation from a living God who gave His name to Moses at the burning bush and gave His words and Law through His prophets. They were saved through faith in the one true living God. The could not know God through Christ as they had not yet received full revelaton of Christ, but they had a special revelation of God.

When Jesus came, he said that those who did not believe that he came from God were condemned. This is throughout the gospel of John, which I'm reading now.

There is nothing in the Bible to indicate one is saved by general revelation. Throughout most of the first 3 chapters of Romans, we see that man is not saved by general revelation or by morals or by religion.

 

[skypair]

John,

My replier has gone haywire. I lost a whole post so this is a test.

sky

 

[skypair]

John,

This is short cause, though I had copied my last post due to a sign in glitch, It wouldn't copy when I came back.

Anyway, we have established that "special revelation" is spoken or written (Bible) word of God only.

So how does one who, knows God through nature, Rom 1, find salvation in 500 AD America? I guess you have to say there is no hope of such, right?

I'll leave it at that -- can't remember the rest and gotta move on. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day.

skypair

 

[John of Japan]

John,

My replier has gone haywire. I lost a whole post so this is a test.

sky

My sympathies. I hate it when that happens!

 

[skypair]

John,

Frustrating indeed! I think my cursor "tripped" a popup that, when I backed up from it, I was logged out somehow.

Take a look at Rom 2:13-16 -- 13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

What my point has always been is the the "just" are resurrected postrib to earth, to Christ. Hear we have 1) people who DIDN'T HEAR (that's one of your critical words for "special revelation," right?), 2) who are "justified." Paul says that they actually "DO" the law (albeit by the "general revelation" and mercy of God), right?

Now if such non-hearers come before Christ as just from the OT, how about the ones I suggest (those "inaccessible" to the word -- infants, 500 AD Native Americans, etal.) during our era?

Or how do you read this passage?

skypair

 

[John of Japan]

John,

Frustrating indeed! I think my cursor "tripped" a popup that, when I backed up from it, I was logged out somehow.

Take a look at Rom 2:13-16 -- 13 "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

You left out v. 12--"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." People who have no more law than their own conscience will be judged by that conscience--and be condemned by it, because no one consistently keeps a clean conscience.

Since all--ALL without exception--have sinned according to their own law whether it be OT law or the law of conscience, ALL are guilty before God and have no excuse. If someone could 100% keep the law, they would be justified before God. But no one can. Paul wrote the book of Galatians specifically to show that no one keeps the law and therefore no one is justified by it.

In the context of the passage, the "secrets of men" have to be the sins they committed as judged according to their own conscience. Why are they secrets? Because they are shameful.

What my point has always been is the the "just" are resurrected postrib to earth, to Christ. Hear we have 1) people who DIDN'T HEAR (that's one of your critical words for "special revelation," right?), 2) who are "justified." Paul says that they actually "DO" the law (albeit by the "general revelation" and mercy of God), right?

Yes, “hearing” is a critical word in this discussion, but it is not my word, it is the Lord’s in Romans 10:10-17.

Don't misread this Romans 2 passage. It says not that those without Christ are justified by their conscience, but that it is theoretically possible to be justified by the law—if one keeps it perfectly.

Note this comment by A. T. Robertson in his Word Pictures: "Their thoughts one with another accusing or also excusing them (metaxu allêlôn tôn logismôn katêgorountôn ê kai apologoumenôn). Genitive absolute again showing the alternative action of the conscience, now accusing, now excusing. Paul does not say that a heathen's conscience always commends everything that he thinks, says, or does. In order for one to be set right with God by his own life he must always act in accord with his conscience and never have its disapproval. That, of course, is impossible else Christ died for naught (Ga 2:21). Jesus alone lived a sinless life. For one to be saved without Christ he must also live a sinless life."

Now if such non-hearers come before Christ as just from the OT, how about the ones I suggest (those "inaccessible" to the word -- infants, 500 AD Native Americans, etal.) during our era?

Or how do you read this passage?

skypair

God promises over and over in the Scriptures that they who seek Him will find Him (Deut. 4:29, Matt. 7:7-8, Heb. 11:6, etc.). So I have to believe that someone in the America of 500 A. D. who truly sought God after seeing the revelation of nature would find God.

Scenario: Petros the Nestorian missionary in 500 A. D. follows the missionary path of his namesake and hero the Apostle Peter to southern Russia. He there hears about a mysterious land beyond the Bering Strait. Being a true adventurer, he heads NE to the Bering Strait and catches a boat across. (It's not that far.) Upon reaching Alaska, he meets a native who has seen God in the beauty of the universe and sought Him. It takes awhile to learn the native language, but within 6 months Petros is able to witness and see the native trust Christ. Alas, the other natives become jealous and kill the two.

Impossible, you say? Of course it is possible since "with God, all things are possible." If someone seeks God then God will send a messenger. And we know so extremely little about the America of 500 that it seems presumptuous to me to say anything is impossible in that era.

Case study: Tarasi the pygmy from Cowboy boots in Darkest Africa, by Bill Rice, p. 140:

“One night as I was talking of the love of God and how He had sent Jesus to die for us, old Tarasi, the little old man in the monkey-skin cap who had been the very first Pygmy we had met, stood to his feet.

“‘Bwana,’ he said in his thin voice, ‘I thought it must be something like that. Many times I have climbed the highest tree and have looked far into the sky, trying to see God. I felt sure He must be up there some place. And again and again I have called, God, are You there? Can you hear me? Do You see little old Tarasi? God, I am afraid—come and help Tarasi. But,’ the odd old fellow continued, ‘I never could hear Him answer me a word. I thought God surely must have some way of helping poor old Tarasi. I am glad to hear of Jesus and to know that He died me . . . I thought it must be something like thatl’

“So old Tarasi was our first convert and his son, Gabani, was our second.

“Some two years later I was informed that a church had been established among this tribe of Pygmies. It hard for me to realize that some of these small, brown, most-naked jungle people were now testifying to other Pygmy tribes of the grace of God that brings salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. In all the world there are only a few—perhaps five or six—Pygmy churches. I am grateful to God that I was privileged to be present the beginning of this one.” :type:

 

[skypair]

John,

Thanks for you well-documented answers. Like I said, I'm no theologian. My career is flying airplanes -- DC-10's lately. I do take seriously this that you said:

God promises over and over in the Scriptures that they who seek Him will find Him (Deut. 4:29, Matt. 7:7-8, Heb. 11:6, etc.). So I have to believe that someone in the America of 500 A. D. who truly sought God after seeing the revelation of nature would find God.

AMEN! I think we can agree on that and let this issue be an "open item" between us.

skypair

 

[John of Japan]

John,

Thanks for you well-documented answers. Like I said, I'm no theologian. My career is flying airplanes -- DC-10's lately.

Maybe I'll fly with you on our next furlough. Our home church is in Murfreesboro, TN. :wavey:

AMEN! I think we can agree on that and let this issue be an "open item" between us.

skypair

It's been a very interesting discussion. You have sharpened me by some good questions and points, since I've never had the chance to discuss the issue in detail with someone who took the other side. :thumbs:

I was just looking in my library and noticed that probably the best modern treatment I have on the subject is one I didn't even consult, a recent systematic theology by an SBC theologian, Millard Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed. Erickson gives a whole section to revelation and inspiration, Part 2, "Knowing God," with over 100 pages. In particular, he briefly touches the possibilities of salvation through general revelation on pp. 196-198. I highly recommend this book unless you can't overcome some prejudice against systematic theologies. :smilewinkgrin:

God bless.

John R. Himes
Asahikawa, Japan