genesis 1:1 and creation ex nihilo

[Calminian]

Yes, I know it is hard to accept another viewpoint; we all have that struggle.

Is that really a struggle though? Accepting viewpoints is easy, especially if you get to pick and choose which one you like the best and then just be tolerate of others and we have wonderful diversity. The struggle is accepting God's viewpoint, particularly Christ's viewpoint, which is the truth, and particularly when that view is at odds with popular science. That is not easy. That means you have go against a lot of people and catch a lot of flack for it.

Note that in the process of discussion you yourself do not seem bothered that you: 1) added to Jesus’ words (you added “very” to “beginning of creation”), 2) denied any difference between two conspicuously different things (the days of creating vs the day of resting), 3) took another person’s words completely out of context (mine--see your “bingo” business), 4) considered yourself to be superior in the process (maybe you should fear God a bit more).

I think what your saying, in all of this, is, truth is sometimes offensive. I agree. But it's still truth. It's your word vs. Christ's. Either Adam and Eve were created at the beginning of creation or Christ is wrong. You can fudge it and try to make arguments Christ meant just the opposite, but it's futile. He believed Adam and Eve were created at the beginning. I do too.

 

[Calminian]

but Mark says in Greek, "from but the beginning of the creation male and female God made"

of the creation is one word, "act of founding" "establishment", "institution" "ordinance"

It is not referring to Gen 1:3 but the order of mankind

You misapply one word, then create doctrine contradictory to other scripture. Man had to have a place, Everything had to have a place, from grass to fish, There is an order of creation. Man was FORMED at the end of the creation period.
Man was not created, Mankind, or order to society was.

The translations all seem to agree, and even if you add "of the" it still doesn't change the obvious meaning in english.

For it to mean what you hopelessly desire it to mean, it would have to say, "From the beginning of the creation of man, God created them male female." But it doesn't. It just says "of the creation." It confirms, apparently, your worst nightmare, that Adam and Eve, the first male and female are real people and were made at the beginning. This is a serious blow to the credibility of the gods of this age, Mother Nature and Father Time.

 

[loDebar]

The translations all seem to agree, and even if you add "of the" it still doesn't change the obvious meaning in english.

For it to mean what you hopelessly desire it to mean, it would have to say, "From the beginning of the creation of man, God created them male female." But it doesn't. It just says "of the creation." It confirms, apparently, your worst nightmare, that Adam and Eve, the first male and female are real people and were made at the beginning. This is a serious blow to the credibility of the gods of this age, Mother Nature and Father Time.

The verse is literal Greek, of the creation " ktisis" The KJV translates Strong's G2937 in the following manner: creature (11x), creation (6x), building (1x), ordinance (1x).

It is not the initial phase of initial creation but a later phase pertaining to those who live on the earth

Why is Adam and Eve my nightmare? The were formed of the earth, not created, at their time when the earth was ready for man to live, not Gen 1:1

Mother Nature and Father Time are not gods but expression for nature and time. No one considers them gods.

 

[Calminian]

The verse is literal Greek, of the creation " ktisis" The KJV translates Strong's G2937 in the following manner: creature (11x), creation (6x), building (1x), ordinance (1x).

It is not the initial phase of initial creation but a later phase pertaining to those who live on the earth

Why is Adam and Eve my nightmare? The were formed of the earth, not created, at their time when the earth was ready for man to live, not Gen 1:1

Mother Nature and Father Time are not gods but expression for nature and time. No one considers them gods.

Your problem is not your understanding of the Greek, but rather your logic. You argument does not follow. Your rendering of the passage is fine, your interpretation is merely a biased attempt to make the text compatible with modern science. Christ said Adam and Eve were from the beginning of creation (i.e. the initial creating of the creation). We live the the creation today, and the literal 6 day are its beginning.

You can trust Christ, or trust man. UP2U.

 

[loDebar]

Your problem is not your understanding of the Greek, but rather your logic. You argument does not follow. Your rendering of the passage is fine, your interpretation is merely a biased attempt to make the text compatible with modern science. Christ said Adam and Eve were from the beginning of creation (i.e. the initial creating of the creation). We live the the creation today, and the literal 6 day are its beginning.

You can trust Christ, or trust man. UP2U.

Or make mistakes. As you have here

 

[loDebar]

What is the purpose of this creation?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Is that really a struggle though? Accepting viewpoints is easy, especially if you get to pick and choose which one you like the best and then just be tolerate of others and we have wonderful diversity. The struggle is accepting God's viewpoint, particularly Christ's viewpoint, which is the truth, and particularly when that view is at odds with popular science. That is not easy. That means you have go against a lot of people and catch a lot of flack for it.

The truth is that other viewpoints are hard to accept, thus the “strawman” accusation. It is real. Not everyone formulating strawman arguments do so out of malice; many do so because they believe their representation fair. Similar with following an argument to its logical conclusion. If any of the original presuppositions are omitted, then the result may be faulty indeed.

I think what your saying, in all of this, is, truth is sometimes offensive. I agree. But it's still truth. It's your word vs. Christ's. Either Adam and Eve were created at the beginning of creation or Christ is wrong. You can fudge it and try to make arguments Christ meant just the opposite, but it's futile. He believed Adam and Eve were created at the beginning. I do too.

Again, despite your claims, you are insistent on a difference of interpretation, not fact. The only difference between your understanding and mine is a matter of time duration, not of beginnings. I can and do agree with every single biblical statement quoted. That I disagree with your interpretation may offend you, but you are not the source or reservoir of truth.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

The translations all seem to agree, and even if you add "of the" it still doesn't change the obvious meaning in english.
For it to mean what you hopelessly desire it to mean, it would have to say, "From the beginning of the creation of man, God created them male female." But it doesn't. It just says "of the creation." It confirms, apparently, your worst nightmare, that Adam and Eve, the first male and female are real people and were made at the beginning. This is a serious blow to the credibility of the gods of this age, Mother Nature and Father Time.

If you stuck to only biblical statements, there would be no quarrel. But you insist on saying what Jesus should have said if he meant such and such. Sorry, but you don’t get to dictate to God what he can and cannot say to convey his message.

The context of the passage you cited regards marriage and divorce. Jesus’ response to the issue takes it all the way back to the creation of the first man and first woman and their union by God. To make it a lesson on the age of the earth or of creation in general is eisegetic.

 

[Calminian]

....Again, despite your claims, you are insistent on a difference of interpretation....

Hmmmm. If that's the case, then all I have to do is interpret you in a non-straightforward way, and problem solved. I've now decided that you agree with me. I know that's not literally what you said, but I'm allowed to interpret you any way like. Fair enough?

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

Hmmmm. If that's the case, then all I have to do is interpret you in a non-straightforward way, and problem solved. I've now decided that you agree with me. I know that's not literally what you said, but I'm allowed to interpret you any way like. Fair enough?

Well, isn’t that pretty much what you’ve been doing here all along with both my words and God’s? You seem to find it extraordinarily difficult to admit the many points of agreement that I’ve pointed out, evidently because you don’t like the implied conclusions. One does not arrive at the truth by denying it all along the way.

 

[percho]

If you view the origins account literally, the entire 6 days is the beginning. Beginning can be understood as a beginning period. It's used in this respect all throughout the Old Testament. And it's very clear this is what the author intended in the origins account.

Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

Gen. 1:3 Then God said, “Let there be light”….
Gen. 1:6 Then God said, “Let there be a firmament….
Gen. 1:9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens…let the dry land appear”….
Gen. 1:11 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth grass….”
Gen. 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament….
Gen. 1:20 Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures,….let birds fly above….
Gen. 1:24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature….
Gen. 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image….
Gen. 1:31 Then God saw everything that He had made, and indeed it was very good….

Gen. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.​

Creation exists today. This, above, is the beginning of creation. This is what Christ was referring to, and he should know. He was the Creator.

You have a very simple decision. Believe the Creator or believe the world.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:1 At that moment did the works of the devil need to be destroyed? Would that destruction require the creation of man? Manifested? At the moment of Gen 1:1 would the destruction of the devil and his works require the introduction of sin and death? James 1:14,15 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal 4:4,5
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. Rom 7:14 ?The first man Adam?

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46

Before the foundation of the world just how was God going to go about destroying the devil and his works?

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20

Did it require man, sin, and death? Lev. 17:11 Darby for the soul of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that maketh atonement for the soul.

 

[Calminian]

Well, isn’t that pretty much what you’ve been doing here all along with both my words and God’s? You seem to find it extraordinarily difficult to admit the many points of agreement that I’ve pointed out, evidently because you don’t like the implied conclusions. One does not arrive at the truth by denying it all along the way.

So, IOWs, God created the heavens and earth in six literal days about six thousand years ago. We're clear.