Genesis 3:22, fallen man, sinless man Christ

[37818]

Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

Romans 8:3, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: . . .

Hebrews 4:15, For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Luke 18:19, And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

The issue is of the possession of the divine knowledge of good and evil.


It's knowledge of evil is the cause of the sin nature in mankindm.

The Son of God was always God having His divine knowledge.

 

[Van]

Was it the acquired knowledge of good and evil, that produced our sin nature, or sinful nature? I do not think so.

Did Adam become like God at least in the aspect of having the knowledge? Yes. Did he need to acquire that knowledge in order to sin, or behave in a sinful manner? Nope, he ate the fruit before he acquired the knowledge

OTOH, did Adam acquire that knowledge through or by means of sinful behavior? Yes in deed.

Why then was Adam driven out of the garden? To keep Adam from eating of the tree of life and thus to live forever! The wages of sin is death, don't you see!

So Adam, and Eve, had the capacity to sin or behave in a sinful manner before the Fall. But after the Fall, their "eyes were opened" thus revealing the consequence imposed spiritually by God, a new outlook, a sinful nature, predisposed to sin.

And yes, Jesus, not having a corrupted human spirit, but the uncorrupted perfect Spirit of the Second Person of the Trinity, thus was always sinless, even though He was treated with the wages of sin for our benefit as the ransom for all.

 

[37818]

Was it the acquired knowledge of good and evil, that produced our sin nature, or sinful nature? I do not think so.

Did Adam become like God at least in the aspect of having the knowledge? Yes. Did he need to acquire that knowledge in order to sin, or behave in a sinful manner? Nope, he ate the fruit before he acquired the knowledge

OTOH, did Adam acquire that knowledge through or by means of sinful behavior? Yes in deed.

Why then was Adam driven out of the garden? To keep Adam from eating of the tree of life and thus to live forever! The wages of sin is death, don't you see!

So Adam, and Eve, had the capacity to sin or behave in a sinful manner before the Fall. But after the Fall, their "eyes were opened" thus revealing the consequence imposed spiritually by God, a new outlook, a sinful nature, predisposed to sin.

And yes, Jesus, not having a corrupted human spirit, but the uncorrupted perfect Spirit of the Second Person of the Trinity, thus was always sinless, even though He was treated with the wages of sin for our benefit as the ransom for all.

It seems you believe God created man with a sinful nature. Is that so?

 

[Charlie24]

It seems you believe God created man with a sinful nature. Is that so?

You're not going to find the phrase "sin nature" in the Bible, but neither will you find "the Trinity" or "the Rapture."

They are all derived concepts of doctrines found in the Scripture.

We must study the Scripture for ourselves to determine if these concepts are found in the Scripture or not.

Simply put, the concept is there beyond reasonable doubt, or they are not.

 

[37818]

The point of this thread is sinful fallen state of mankind was caused by man eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God created man to be good. Genesis 1:31, And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[Charlie24]

The point of this thread is sinful fallen state of mankind was caused by man eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God created man to be good. Genesis 1:31, And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

That is a solid truth! Man directly disobeyed the only warning God him.

 

[37818]

That is a solid truth! Man directly disobeyed the only warning God him.

According to Eve God told both of them, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Genesis 3:3.

 

[Charlie24]

According to Eve God told both of them, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. Genesis 3:3.

That's true! Paul told us the woman was at fault by eating the fruit first and giving to Adam, but the man was held responsible.

Rom. 5:12
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

What I see is that:
God Commanded Adam in
Genesis 2:16a; "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying,..."

And, although, in Genesis 2:16b; the tree was truly called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil",
but that's all.

That is just
What the tree is called;
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,

Then, What God actually Commanded is in 17a;

God's Command to Adam was; "thou shalt not eat of it."

So, then God's JUDGMENT FOR DISOBEYING HIS COMMAND WAS THAT THEY WOULD DIE; seen in Genesis 17:b; "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I don't see anything that has to do with God's JUDGMENT FOR DISOBEYING HIS COMMAND WOULD BE THAT THEY WOULD BE: in the possession of the divine knowledge of good and evil.

the possession of the divine knowledge of good and evil.

What this is talking about is deep, but it isn't meant to be defining anything specific about "to know good and evil" having any significance to speak of and isn't the Direct Judgment of God, for any particular purpose;

Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

So again, God's JUDGMENT FOR DISOBEYING HIS COMMAND WAS THAT THEY WOULD DIE; seen in Genesis 17:b; "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

I can't establish the origins of the sin of man being when they became in:

the possession of the divine knowledge of good and evil.

nor:

It's knowledge of evil is the cause of the sin nature in mankindm.

I CAN'T GET THERE FROM HERE. I just don't see anything like that concept in there.

You do know, of course, that there is certainly no similarity between the extent of God's Divine Knowledge and the knowledge said to be given to Adam of "good and evil", which you are also calling, divine knowledge(?)

I don't know why you would call the knowledge of "good and evil", divine knowledge(?)

Now, what the serpent was saying to them about breaking God's Command was in Genesis 3:5; "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Satan does offer some big bonuses that he said Adam and Eve would be getting for eating of that tree, there;
1.) "your eyes shall be opened",
2.) "and ye shall be as gods", 3.) "knowing good and evil".

Those 'promises' were the lies of the Devil that he 'promised' Adam and Eve, for eating of the fruit of that tree.

Notice, the serpent left everything out about, "you shall surly die", and in fact as you know told them, in Genesis 3:4b; "Ye shall not surely die".

So, in Genesis 17:b; God had said that their Judgment would be "in the day" that thou eatest thereof" to die that day; "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

We can, however, define the origin of sin and its effect on Adam and Eve that has been passed to all of their posterity, the entire Human Race, by properly deciphering that last part of Genesis 17:b; "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Since, you and I know that Adam and Eve lived for many years after that "day" when God Himself had said, "thou shalt surely die."

So, if they didn't die that "day", Physically, how is it that God's Words where He says, "thou shalt surely die", can be said to be true?

You say here:

The point of this thread is sinful fallen state of mankind was caused by man eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

right, and they died that day, as a result.

Why?

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

You are talking to somebody else here and asked them;

It seems you believe God created man with a sinful nature. Is that so?

For me, I don't believe for a second that "God created man with a sinful nature".

God Created man with a nature that was Holy and Adam and Eve Possessed Their Own Righteousness.

However, that nature that was Holy God Created Adam with was Not Immutable. Adam was Created with the ability to change. God didn't make him like the Angels or a robot. So, inevitably God Knew that Adam wound eventually choose to change and do something on his own, instead of obeying God.

So, God Created Adam with a Nature that could have the independence and possibly to Fall into a Natural State of that which was now, "sin."

And he did choose to disobey God in the way that we are looking at. And since God Knew that Adam wound eventually choose to change, instead of obeying God, and that would cause Adam's Fall into sin and being judged to die, God had two choices.

1.) leave Adam to die in his sins, or

2.) Prepare a Lamb from the Foundation of the World.

From Eternity Past is how long the Covenant of Grace for the accomplishment of the salvation of fallen sinners had been Planned, Decreed, and Determined in which Jesus agree to be "The Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the World".

And, why did God allow Adam to Fall into sin and then have The Lamb of God Glorified for accomplishing salvation?

"Father, I Will that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I Am; that they may behold My Glory, which thou hast given Me: for thou Lovedst Me before the Foundation of the World."
John 17:24.

God wanted some companionship with Him in Heaven FOREVER and for those companions to Worship Him Eternally WITHOUT SIN, FOR HAVING BEEN FORGIVEN OF THEIR SIN, BY HIS SON.

That's where Christians go when they die.

Adam died that day and you know the language in Ephesians 2 talks about: "you...were dead in trespasses and sins"...

3; "...and were by nature the children of wrath"

5 "Even when we were dead in sins",

How is that that we were "dead in sins"?

Well, John said "you must be born again" "of The Spirit",

so when the dead are said to need God to "Quicken" them as in vs 5; "Even when we were dead in sins", (vs 4; "God") "hath Quickened us together with Christ, (by Grace ye are Saved."

There we have
God Quickening
The New Spiritual Birth
into a lost "dead" soul.

So, we have to conclude that Adam "died" that very "day" according to God's Revelation to them, from having a Righteous, Holy soul, to having an unrighteous, sin-ridden soul, which was dead to God, why?

Because, "God is Spirit" and the natural sin-cursed spiritually dead Realm HAS NO WAY OF ACCESSING A CONNECTION, BY THEIR VERY NATURE, TO THE NATURE OF GOD, WHO IS IN THE REALM OF THE SPIRIT.

4 "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5; hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"

WHY?

7 "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Genesis 3:22, And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: . . .

Adapted from
Gill, on Genesis 3:22;

I think the words, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil", are seriously spoken, since this was spoken after Adam was brought to a sense of the evil he committed, and to Repentance for his sins

and after Adam had had the Promised Seed Revealed to him and Granted Faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, in Eternal Salvation;

and, after Adam was clothed with garments provided by God Himself, as emblems of Justification and Salvation by Jesus,

wherefore the words, "behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil";
are to be considered as a Declaration of Adam's Present State and Condition, of having had his soul Saved, in and by Jesus Christ,

And whereas, by his Fall in to a Natural State of Sin, Adam had lost his own Righteousness;

In his SALVATION, it is by Christ's Righteousness Adam was made Righteous, even as Jesus is Righteous,

And whereas, by his Fall into a Natural State of Sin, Adam was deprived of that Image in which he was Created, now having sinned, and come short of the Glory of God;

Then, in his Salvation by Jesus Christ, to whose Image Adam was now Conformed, Adam was again now bearing the Image of the Heavenly One,

and Adam was now Restored in Salvation to friendship and amity with God, favoured with God's Gracious Presence, and having Faith and Hope of being with God for Forevermore;

And, again, in his Salvation by Jesus Christ, the eyes of Adam's understanding were Enlightened by the Spirit and Grace of God, to know the Good Things which God had Provided for him in Christ,

And while, in his Fall into a Natural State of Sin, Adam had broken The Covenant of Works,

in his Salvation by Jesus Christ, Adam was Spiritually Enabled to see the Spiritual Blessings which God had Provided for him in the Eternal Covenant of Grace, a Better Covenant than that Covenant of Works under which Adam was made, and which Adam had broken;

and Adam was now Spiritually Enabled to know the Evil Nature of sin,

to know sin's just demerit,

and the Atonement of sin, by the Death and Sacrifice of the Promised Seed, OUR LORD AND SAVOUR, JESUS CHRIST.

 

[percho]

and him who was made some little less than messengers we see -- Jesus -- because of the suffering of the death,

Questions

In the Greek is there any significance to the definite article preceding the word death?
Was, "the death," spoken of in Heb 2:9 relative to, "מוֹת תָּמוּת," in Gen 2:17?

Why was man [Adam] made/created, some little less than messengers?

Was Adam also created/made because of the suffering of, the death?

To me all of you refuse to acknowledge the devil, Satan the adversary, is relative to the creation of Adam.
That it was preordained before the foundation of the world for the Son of God be manifested, with the soul of the flesh, in the blood, ie to die, to destroy the works of the devil, which included the death and who I believe the word of God expresses as already a sinner in Genesis 1:2 from beginning the devil is sinning 1 John 3:8

I grew up Presbyterian
Who made you - God
What else did God make - God made all things
Why did God make you and all things - for his own glory

Does that glory come through the first Adam or the second Adam. The first Adam was created unto death to be born from above in the image of the the second Adam via having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;
ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

IMHO sin and death preceded Adam and Adam was created to bring it into the recent foundation of the world, for purpose, relative to the devil, Satan.

 

[37818]

I don't see anything that has to do with God's JUDGMENT FOR DISOBEYING HIS COMMAND WOULD BE THAT THEY WOULD BE: in the possession of the divine knowledge of good and evil.

Is it because you do not believe what the LORD God said in Genesis 3:22?

 

[Charlie24]

Adapted from
Gill, on Genesis 3:22;

I think the words, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil", are seriously spoken, since this was spoken after Adam was brought to a sense of the evil he committed, and to Repentance for his sins

and after Adam had had the Promised Seed Revealed to him and Granted Faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour, in Eternal Salvation;

and, after Adam was clothed with garments provided by God Himself, as emblems of Justification and Salvation by Jesus,

wherefore the words, "behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil";
are to be considered as a Declaration of Adam's Present State and Condition, of having had his soul Saved, in and by Jesus Christ,

And whereas, by his Fall in to a Natural State of Sin, Adam had lost his own Righteousness;

In his SALVATION, it is by Christ's Righteousness Adam was made Righteous, even as Jesus is Righteous,

And whereas, by his Fall into a Natural State of Sin, Adam was deprived of that Image in which he was Created, now having sinned, and come short of the Glory of God;

Then, in his Salvation by Jesus Christ, to whose Image Adam was now Conformed, Adam was again now bearing the Image of the Heavenly One,

and Adam was now Restored in Salvation to friendship and amity with God, favoured with God's Gracious Presence, and having Faith and Hope of being with God for Forevermore;

And, again, in his Salvation by Jesus Christ, the eyes of Adam's understanding were Enlightened by the Spirit and Grace of God, to know the Good Things which God had Provided for him in Christ,

And while, in his Fall into a Natural State of Sin, Adam had broken The Covenant of Works,

in his Salvation by Jesus Christ, Adam was Spiritually Enabled to see the Spiritual Blessings which God had Provided for him in the Eternal Covenant of Grace, a Better Covenant than that Covenant of Works under which Adam was made, and which Adam had broken;

and Adam was now Spiritually Enabled to know the Evil Nature of sin,

to know sin's just demerit,

and the Atonement of sin, by the Death and Sacrifice of the Promised Seed, OUR LORD AND SAVOUR, JESUS CHRIST.

Mr. Gill is representing Covenant Theology here, Covenant of Works/ Covenant of Grace.

The way that works for Adam is that under the Covenant of Works, Adam was to obey God for eternal life. Considering there was no sin in the world, there was no need for a Savior.

Then when Adam sinned, God had a plan of redemption for sin in the Covenant of Grace.

The problem as I see it, is that Mr. Gill has assumed under the Covenant of Grace that Adam repented when God provided the animal skins for Adam and Eve that represented the Gospel of Christ in the shedding of the blood of the animals to provide the covering.

Adam and Eve accepted the coats of skin physically, but no where in Scripture do we see that they repented and accepted the coats of skin spiritually which would have led to their salvation.

I'm not saying they didn't, just saying there is no evidence that they did. So it seems to me his conclusion is an assumption.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Then when Adam sinned, God had a plan of redemption for sin in the Covenant of Grace.

The problem as I see it, is that Mr. Gill has assumed under the Covenant of Grace that Adam repented when God provided the animal skins for Adam and Eve that represented the Gospel of Christ in the shedding of the blood of the animals to provide the covering.

Adam and Eve accepted the coats of skin physically, but no where in Scripture do we see that they repented and accepted the coats of skin spiritually which would have led to their salvation.

I'm not saying they didn't, just saying there is no evidence that they did. So it seems to me his conclusion is an assumption.

The Scripture evidence of Adam's Salvation is that he is a type of Christ, as the Bible states that he "is".
Romans 5:14; "Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come."

 

[Charlie24]

Mr. Gill is representing Covenant Theology here, Covenant of Works/ Covenant of Grace.

The way that works for Adam is that under the Covenant of Works, Adam was to obey God for eternal life. Considering there was no sin in the world, there was no need for a Savior.

Then when Adam sinned, God had a plan of redemption for sin in the Covenant of Grace.

The problem as I see it, is that Mr. Gill has assumed under the Covenant of Grace that Adam repented when God provided the animal skins for Adam and Eve that represented the Gospel of Christ in the shedding of the blood of the animals to provide the covering.

Adam and Eve accepted the coats of skin physically, but no where in Scripture do we see that they repented and accepted the coats of skin spiritually which would have led to their salvation.

I'm not saying they didn't, just saying there is no evidence that they did. So it seems to me his conclusion is an assumption.

Let me further explain this, I think it's very important to understand especially where Calvinism is concerned.

When God called out Adam and Eve on their sin, Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the Serpent.

There was no repentance! This is not to say that they later repented, but Covenant Theology assumes they were saved when God presented the Gospel by way of the animal sacrifice This goes back to Covenant Theology in Calvinism.

When God presented the sacrifice, they were presented with a choice, not definite salvation as Covenant Theology teaches.

They were now totally depraved and God had to come them, they had a choice to make and it began with repentance,

The Scripture evidence of Adam's Salvation is that he is a type of Christ, as the Bible states that he "is".
Romans 5:14; "Yet death exercised dominion from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come."

That's the Covenant Theology view of what Paul said, Dispensationalism see's it differently.

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses..."

Death was in all men because of Adam's sin, that death sentence was passed down to all men.

"Even over them who has not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression..."

Paul is speaking here of those from "Adam to Moses" those who lived before the Law and had no sins imputed to them, "sin is not imputed where there is no Law."

Paul is saying that the death from Adam's sin even reigned over these men who had no sin imputed to them.

"who is the figure of Him who was to come."

The figure or the type/symbol is that Adam represented death by sin, but the one to come (Christ) represented redemption and life.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The Bible says that Adam
is a type of Jesus.

Adam, who is a type of the one who was to come."

Charlie24 says Adam
is a type of 'death by sin'.

the type/symbol is that Adam represented death by sin

Then, I'll go with The Book.

 

[Charlie24]

The Bible says that Adam
is a type of Jesus.



Charlie24 says Adam
is a type of 'death by sin'.



Then, I'll go with The Book.

Paul is telling us that Adam brought death by sin to even those who had no sin imputed to them and you see Adam as the type of Christ?

Oh boy, what's wrong with that? That's Covenant Theology for you!

 

[kyredneck]

you see Adam as the type of Christ?

Oh boy, what's wrong with that?

It's your ignorance of scripture, Charlie.

That's Covenant Theology for you!

It's scripture, Charlie.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the trespass, so also [is] the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
16 And not as through one that sinned, [so] is the gift: for the judgment [came] of one unto condemnation, but the free gift [came] of many trespasses unto justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, [even] Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. Ro 5

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Cor 15

Jonah

Jonah Chapter 4 | Baptist Christian Forums

 

[Charlie24]

Paul is telling us that Adam brought death by sin to even those who had no sin imputed to them and you see Adam as the type of Christ?

Oh boy, what's wrong with that? That's Covenant Theology for you!

Paul calls Christ the "Second Adam" in 1 Corinthians.

The type

It's your ignorance of scripture, Charlie.



It's scripture, Charlie.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the trespass, so also [is] the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
16 And not as through one that sinned, [so] is the gift: for the judgment [came] of one unto condemnation, but the free gift [came] of many trespasses unto justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, [even] Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one trespass [the judgment came] unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness [the free gift came] unto all men to justification of life.
19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. Ro 5

45 So also it is written, The first man Adam became a living soul. The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 1 Cor 15

Well that's not nice, ky, I thought we were friends. But I understand the heat is on.

I'm sorry, my friend, but you and your Covenant Theology have completely missed the point.

The figure/type that Paul is speaking of is that Adam brought "death by sin" into the world, but Christ brought "life through redemption" into the world.

In no way Is Paul declaring Adam to be saved as Covenant Theology would like you to believe.

Cant you see it in the verse you quoted, vs 18?

"Through one trespass" Adams trespass, judgment came on man for sin.

" Even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came" which is what Christ did for us on the Cross.

No where in the Scripture is it implicated that Adam ever repented of his sin.