genocide as commanded by God?

[DHK]

we have a pretty good idea when we read what His word..

God doesn't reveal everything in his Word:
computers, internet, cell phones, the type of houses that we live in, etc.

Nor does he reveal the type of government that each of us will live under: monarchy, oligarchy, democracy, dictatorship, etc.
He only tells that we are to submit to that government, and the laws that they put in place, and that was during a dictatorship--Caesar's time; in Paul's time it was the reign of Nero.

No, not everything is revealed in God's Word.
He plainly says: "The secret things belong unto the Lord."

who's to say God sent it?

Even the very hairs of your head are counted.
There is not one thing that happens on this earth without God knowing about it. It could not happen without the direct permission of God. Whether indirectly or directly it came from God. God permitted it to happen. God alone is sovereign.

you assume too much about God as well.

I know that He is the sovereign Ruler of this universe, and there is nothing that happens without his permission or his knowing. He is omniscient and omnipotent. He is our Creator. And He cares for everyone of us, even though it may not seem like it at times.

 

[gekko]

God doesn't reveal everything in his Word:

never said he did. in fact my statement there insinuates that.

Even the very hairs of your head are counted.
There is not one thing that happens on this earth without God knowing about it. It could not happen without the direct permission of God. Whether indirectly or directly it came from God. God permitted it to happen. God alone is sovereign.

I know that He is the sovereign Ruler of this universe, and there is nothing that happens without his permission or his knowing.

nothing that happens without God's permission...
so we could be tempted and give in to temptation to commit adultery - but "it could not happen without the direct permission of God"?

we make our own choices - God being sovreign doesn't mean he makes the choices for us. or that God created a tsunami. or instituted the rwandan genocides.

And He cares for everyone of us, even though it may not seem like it at times.

how? how would you explain that to an atheist?
would you just throw your hands up and say that "the atheists mind is already made up - i'll pray God to open his mind"? hogwash.

to an atheist - God cares for no-one.
please explain.

 

[DHK]

nothing that happens without God's permission...
so we could be tempted and give in to temptation to commit adultery - but "it could not happen without the direct permission of God"?

If nothing happened without God's permission or knowing about it, then God would not be God. He is omniscient.
There is the direct will of God found in His Word, "Thou shalt not commit adultery," and the permissive will of God. God's will is that you do not commit adultery. But he will permit you to do so. He will not force you to do His will. He gives you choice. There is always a consequence for sin: whether in this life or in the life to come. Often it is in this life. When David committed adultery he faced consequences for sin in this life. Most people do. It wasn't God's will. But God allowed it to happen. It wasn't God's direct will for David to have many wives. He never set it up that way, but in his permissive will he allowed David to have more than one wife.
God knows all things, and nothing can happen without the permission of God: indirectly or directly.

we make our own choices - God being sovreign doesn't mean he makes the choices for us. or that God created a tsunami. or instituted the rwandan genocides.

We will all give account of ourselves before God. That is true. But God allows sin in this world. He allows us to make our own choice. He permits it. When it goes to far He will judge it, just like he judged Sodom and Gomorrah. "God's Spirit will not always strive with man."
Since you don't know the mind of God you will not know for what purpose God sent that tsunami. Was it for judgement or mercy, or for some other purpose. God is sovereign. He is a God of love, judgement, justice, kindness, mercy, etc. He knows what is best better than you or I. Don't assume that you know better than God. He had his purpose in allowing that tsunami. It could not have taken place without God allowing it to take place.

how? how would you explain that to an atheist?
would you just throw your hands up and say that "the atheists mind is already made up - i'll pray God to open his mind"? hogwash.

God is a God of love. If an atheist is not willing to believe the Bible or the Biblical account of God's love, there is no hope for him. It is fruitless to argue with most atheists. Let God deal with them. Don't cast your pearls before swine, Jesus said.
God demonstrated his love to us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
There is no greater demonstration of the love of God than that.

to an atheist - God cares for no-one. please explain.

There is no need to explain that.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

They are fools.

 

[gekko]

There is no need to explain that.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

They are fools.

so you don't care about witnessing to atheists?

 

[DHK]

so you don't care about witnessing to atheists?

We used to allow atheists to post on this board, in hopes that we would have a chance to show them the truth. That was not the case. Everyone of them was completely closed to the truth. They used this board as a sounding board, a place of advertising for their ungodly agenda. They had absolutely no interest in hearing the truth of the Word of God.

If ever an atheist crosses my path who has a genuine interest in the truth of God's Word, I would certainly witness to him. But until then, I will spend my time with those who are hungry for the Word of God.

 

[drwthohh]

The judge of the earth shall indeed do right. Murdering children and babies is not right and therefore He would not order that.

Evil is not one of God's attributes, neither is sin. Murdering children is both evil and sinful and therefore He would not order that.

What, then, would you call the flood? Don't you think many children died in it? Do you choose not to believe that part of the Bible either? Or do you think it was a natural disaster that was outside of God's will?

...the 'genocidal' portions are not meant to be interpreted literally, that's all.

It seems pretty clear to meGod is however bound by His own standards - I refer you again to "Thou shalt not commit murder".

How do you know God gave the command, "Thou shalt not commit murder"? Because it is recorded in the Bible, right? The same Bible that tells us of His instructions to the Israelites to wipe out the Canaaites. What is your criteria for determining which parts of the Bible give us reliable information about God and which parts don't?

 

[Matt Black]

I don't believe that the Flood was a literal historical event, but rather an allegory illustrating why sin (including the sin of murder) is incompatible with God's nature, so you'll have to do better than that. How do I know which portions of the Bible are literal-historic, which are poetry, which are wisdom literature, which are parabolic-allegorical etc? By reference to Church Tradition.

You are assuming yourself to be God.
You don't know what God's standards are.
He is perfect in all that He does. What seems like murder to you is not murder to him, but perhaps either mercy or justice. In the case of infants it may be mercy--taking them to heaven; in the case of adults, judgement.

If He is perfect in all He does - and I believe He is - then He cannot, absolutely cannot commit murder. Period.

Why did he send such a devastating tsunami that wiped out a good part of the population of Indonesia? Is He a cruel and malicious God, or was it part of His attributes of both justice and mercy?

You assume He sent it. I'm quite flabbergasted that you make that assumption.

Why not wait til heaven and you can ask him and get a better understanding of the things that you cannot understand now.

"The secret things belong unto the Lord."

Why not apply that principle to all theology, then?

 

[gekko]

I don't believe that the Flood was a literal historical event, but rather an allegory illustrating why sin (including the sin of murder) is incompatible with God's nature, so you'll have to do better than that. How do I know which portions of the Bible are literal-historic, which are poetry, which are wisdom literature, which are parabolic-allegorical etc? By reference to Church Tradition.

we have to remember that we can't view everything as allegorical or symbolic either right. just sayin (don't want to debate the flood here..heh)

If ever an atheist crosses my path who has a genuine interest in the truth of God's Word, I would certainly witness to him. But until then, I will spend my time with those who are hungry for the Word of God.

alright.
understandable dhk. i'm not a huge fan of witnessing to people that are set in their ways being ignorant n' all either. i'm with you on that. heh.

i'll ask you then - you being a moderator - would it be ok if my atheist friend (who is alot more open than alot of atheists i've met - he comes to church and bible study with us and has alot of questions - he says he wants to understand it - just hasn't had it explained to him where it makes sense to him) - for him to post some of his questions on here using my account?

not expecting a yes - figured what's it gonna hurt to ask anyways. heh.

God bless.

 

[DHK]

i'll ask you then - you being a moderator - would it be ok if my atheist friend (who is alot more open than alot of atheists i've met - he comes to church and bible study with us and has alot of questions - he says he wants to understand it - just hasn't had it explained to him where it makes sense to him) - for him to post some of his questions on here using my account?

not expecting a yes - figured what's it gonna hurt to ask anyways. heh.

God bless.

Why don't you ask them for him (as I've seen many other posters do)? My friend, an atheist, is asking this question(s).....

 

[DHK]

I don't believe that the Flood was a literal historical event, but rather an allegory illustrating why sin (including the sin of murder) is incompatible with God's nature, so you'll have to do better than that. How do I know which portions of the Bible are literal-historic, which are poetry, which are wisdom literature, which are parabolic-allegorical etc? By reference to Church Tradition.

Tradition doesn't interpret the Bible. The Bible doesn't change. A denial of its truths doesn't change the truth that it teaches. Just because you deny the truth of the Flood, put it away from your mind, dismiss it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is referenced so many times in the NT that it can hardly be dismissed as an allegorical myth. It would be the equivalent of calling Christ and the Apostles deluded and liars.

1. The destruction of the world by a flood.
2. The total destruction of Jericho--men, women, children, by Israel.
3. The total destruction of Ai--men women, children.
4. The total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and of the cities round about by God, and all of their inhabitants.
5. The total destruction of the Canaanites.

And there are so man others throughout the nation of Israel's history. They were directed of God to do so. God used them as an instrument of judgement and justice.

If He is perfect in all He does - and I believe He is - then He cannot, absolutely cannot commit murder. Period.

Big mistake here Matt. What you have said here is that God is perfect in all that He does according to your standard of perfection. God is like a little idol that you carry around in your pocket. You have your idea of what He should be like. You command him to do this and that according to your own perceptions. And if your perceptions of God are not Biblical you throw it out the door and create your own God that you carry with you that is far more convenient. But that is not the God of the Bible. He cannot be controlled or defined by any man. Plain and simple.

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

You assume He sent it. I'm quite flabbergasted that you make that assumption.

I assume nothing but what the Bible declares. The Bible declares that God is sovereign and nothing happens without his knowing, without his permission. Nothing could happen to Job without the permission of God. Satan could not touch him except God allowed him to.

Why not apply that principle to all theology, then?

I do. There is nothing in this world that happens without God's knowing. Absolutely nothing.

 

[gekko]

aiight. sweet deal.

 

[gekko]

Big mistake here Matt. What you have said here is that God is perfect in all that He does according to your standard of perfection. God is like a little idol that you carry around in your pocket. You have your idea of what He should be like. You command him to do this and that according to your own perceptions. And if your perceptions of God are not Biblical you throw it out the door and create your own God that you carry with you that is far more convenient. But that is not the God of the Bible. He cannot be controlled or defined by any man. Plain and simple.

matt is not controlling or making God out to who he wants God to be...

he is simply stating that God cannot sin.
that God does not go back on his promises (or curses)
that if God has deemed murder to be morally wrong and sinful - then God cannot commit murder.

that's all matt's trying to say. least from what i've read.

 

[282Mikado]

Here's a rather simplistic answer, but it has served me well in the past.

Suppose your athiest friend has a family and many possessions that he worked hard to attain and he loves them with all his heart. He has made this love abundantly clear to all that would listen and has set boundries all around to protect his family and possessions.

Then a small gang moves in right next door. They are actually children of people that are friends with the athiest. They have heard all about this guys love and have seen all his rules and protections but they don't care. Unfortunately they have gone bad. One rapes his wife. Another kidnaps his oldest son and burns him at the stake. Another steals his car and destroys it in a joy ride threw town. Another kidnaps his daughter and forces her into a life of drugs and prostitution. Another burns his house down.

How will your friend feel? What would he want to do to this gang?

Now picture a God that CAN NOT sin, nor can He tolerate sin in His presense. The evil above is just a small drop compared to the evil that He has had to endure. God expressed His love. He set forth the rules and spelled out the consequences if those rules were to be broken (See Deut. 30 - 32). He gave them everything they needed to prosper and they turned their back on Him. God upheld His part of the bargain, the people did not and so destruction was allowed to come against them.

Notice that many times, like in the below example from Judges that God merely did what the people wanted. They forsake God. They wanted nothing more to do with Him so He gave them what they asked for. He turned His back. He removed His protection, without which they were open prey for their enemies.

20 And the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel; and he said, Because that this people hath transgressed my covenant which I commanded their fathers, and have not hearkened unto my voice;
21 I also will not henceforth drive out any from before them of the nations which Joshua left when he died:
22 That through them I may prove Israel, whether they will keep the way of the LORD to walk therein, as their fathers did keep it, or not.
23 Therefore the LORD left those nations, without driving them out hastily; neither delivered he them into the hand of Joshua. Judges 2:20-23

You see. God did nothing but give them what they asked for. A lot of parallels can be drawn from these verses to today.

Bottom line, it is really not for us to judge God. He is the creator, we are the creation. He knows the big picture and all the answers, our minds are so finite as to be laughable in comparison. I honestly think though, that most times God just gives the people what they ask for. To be left alone.

 

[gekko]

Bottom line, it is really not for us to judge God.

how do you get the notion that anyone here is judging God??

 

[Matt Black]

Tradition doesn't interpret the Bible.

Er...yes it does. But I don't expect you to accept that

The Bible doesn't change. A denial of its truths doesn't change the truth that it teaches. Just because you deny the truth of the Flood, put it away from your mind, dismiss it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. It is referenced so many times in the NT that it can hardly be dismissed as an allegorical myth. It would be the equivalent of calling Christ and the Apostles deluded and liars.

You're viewing the Bible through thoroughly modernist eyes. I'm far from sure that it's meant to be read that way

Big mistake here Matt. What you have said here is that God is perfect in all that He does according to your standard of perfection.

Nope, I'm saying that He is perfect in all He does according to His standard of perfection. Big difference.

282Mikado, that still doesn't deal with te massive moral problem presented by the murder of infants

 

[282Mikado]

how do you get the notion that anyone here is judging God??

Your atheist friend is, in a sense, judging God. I never said anyone here was. That's what makes contributing on these forums so difficult. Everyone is so ready to pounce on the least thing as a personal attack.

Matt,

The murder of infants does present a difficult challenge, but we have to consider that we are not dealing with just God here, we are also dealing with a flawed mankind and the King of Liars, Satan. People that would willingly submit their oldest children to consuming fire in the name of a false god is certainly capable of infanticide. They are also obviously very capable of falling prey to just about anything Satan would throw against them. We really have to remember that it is not just God and us. Satan is a key player, and he is much more cunning and powerful than any of us on our own without God.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Look to the book of Daniel, a man highly favored by God, who mourned and prayed for three weeks before he got an answer to his prayers. The angel that came said:

Dan 10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Dan 10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

Perhaps if things were between just God and us they would be easier to explain, but we do have a powerful foe that has a heavy impact on things that transpire here on earth.

 

[gekko]

Your atheist friend is, in a sense, judging God.

how is he, in a sense, judging God?

 

[Matt Black]

Matt,

The murder of infants does present a difficult challenge, but we have to consider that we are not dealing with just God here, we are also dealing with a flawed mankind and the King of Liars, Satan. People that would willingly submit their oldest children to consuming fire in the name of a false god is certainly capable of infanticide. They are also obviously very capable of falling prey to just about anything Satan would throw against them. We really have to remember that it is not just God and us. Satan is a key player, and he is much more cunning and powerful than any of us on our own without God.

On that basis, then, Hitler and Stalin should have been strangled at birth. Is that what you're arguing?

 

[282Mikado]

On that basis, then, Hitler and Stalin should have been strangled at birth. Is that what you're arguing?

HHHHUUUUUHHHHHH???????????????????????

Is that the sole purpose of the people in this forum? To seek what miniscule thread they can find to twist in someone's words to start arguments. I'm sorry I came back to this forum. This place is sad.

 

[gekko]

Is that the sole purpose of the people in this forum? To seek what miniscule thread they can find to twist in someone's words to start arguments. I'm sorry I came back to this forum. This place is sad.

wow. lighten up.

not everyone is going to understand everything that everybody says the first, second or even 10th time. takes time to understand things. to explain it to people to help them to understand.

so do what any good 'ol christian would do... be patient.