Genuine God-Given Faith

[KenH]

Look at the KJV if it's in italics then it was added to the verse.. I stand by what I wrote.

So since "quickened" was not added in verse 5, do you concede the point based on that verse?

 

[Iconoclast]

My poor, feeble efforts at honoring God and Christ and the Holy Spirit have nothing to do with the glory of God's teaching of salvation by His free grace. Also, and I think you know this, I was not intending to falsely quote you but simply quoting the gist of your statement, especially since you did not give the Scripture reference to which you were referring. But, if your feathers are truly ruffled by the way I quoted you, then I apologize for ruffling your feathers in that way.

John Gill takes down your argument quite well:

Which in time were not a people
"A "Loammi" being put upon them; see ( Hosea 1:9 Hosea 1:10 Hosea 2:23 ) to which the apostle here refers: God's elect, whether among Jews or Gentiles, were, from eternity, his chosen people, and his covenant people; and, as such, were given to Christ, and they became his people, and his care and charge; and he saved them by his obedience, sufferings, and death, and redeemed them to himself, a peculiar people: but then, before conversion, they are not a people formed by God for himself, and his praise; nor Christ's willing people, either to be saved by him, or to serve him; nor are they, nor can they be truly known by themselves, or others, to be the people of God: the Syriac version gives the true sense of the phrase, by rendering it "these who before were not" (Nwbvx) , "reckoned or accounted a people"; that is, by others:

but are now the people of God;
being regenerated, called, and sanctified, they are avouched by God to be his people; they have the witness of the Spirit to their spirits, that they are the people of God; they can then claim their relation to God, and are known, acknowledged, and called the people of God, by others:

which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy;
being called formerly, Loruhamah, ( Hosea 1:6 Hosea 2:23 ) which passages the apostle has in view: before conversion there is mercy in God's heart towards his elect, and so there is in the covenant of grace, and which was shown in the provision of his Son, as a Saviour, in the mission of him, and redemption by him; but this is not manifested to them, until they are begotten again, according to abundant mercy, and then they obtain mercy; having in their regeneration an evident display of the mercy of God towards them, and an application of his pardoning grace and mercy, through the blood of his Son, unto them.

We have presented these truths to this poster ,however he is totally unable to welcome these truths

 

[MB]

So since "quickened" was not added in verse 5, do you concede the point based on that verse?

No I do not
There is no Salvation with out faith first.
Eph 2:1 Also you—being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Eph 2:2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath—as also the others,
Eph 2:4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
Eph 2:6 and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,
This above comes from the YLT. Notice that Eph 2:8 there is no gift of faith. God is the gift.
Saved yes but not quickened with out faith first.
MB

 

[MB]

We have presented these truths to this poster ,however he is totally unable to welcome these truths

Your so asinine You try and make it my fault that I don't believe in your philosophy. If being a Calvinist means I'd have to be like you then I pass.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

Your so asinine

You're so ignorant, willfully so. The more you post the more you show it.

 

[Van]

Not sure why you said this, as the God has said that Christ did not die for all people. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died only for the sheep, the elect. Nowhere does the Bible teach that Christ for the goats, the non-elect.

If all you are going to do is regurgitate false claims without reference to the text that supposedly supports the bogus claims, your posts are twaddle.

 

[Van]

Yes, the Bible clearly teaches that God deals individually with His elect. For example, God dealt so suddenly with Saul on the road to Damascus that Saul fell to the ground. With me, God spent about thirty years leading me out of Pelgianism into the true gospel of Christ as "The Lord Our RIGHTEOUSNESS".

You must be kidding, first you say God does not make corporate elections, and then as evidence of support you say God deals individually with His elect. LOL If this is your idea of a rational rebuttal, thanks but no thanks...

 

[MB]

You're so ignorant, willfully so. The more you post the more you show it.

Stop looking at me and look at your self. Do you see the pharisee in there?
MB

 

[KenH]

If all you are going to do is regurgitate false claims without reference to the text that supposedly supports the bogus claims, your posts are twaddle.

Twaddle? Absolutely. I am no great teacher, no great philosopher. I am no more than a wicked, vile sinner in my sinful flesh looking to Christ as The Lord my RIGHTEOUSNESS and trusting him with my future in eternity.

 

[Van]

Twaddle? Absolutely. I am no great teacher, no great philosopher. I am no more than a wicked, vile sinner in my sinful flesh looking to Christ as The Lord my RIGHTEOUSNESS and trusting him with my future in eternity.

Is the topic the false doctrine of "the gift of faith" or KenH? The gift of faith. How can a person be chosen through or by reason of faith, unless those chosen already exhibited faith that God credited as righteousness?

 

[Dave G]

How can a person be chosen through or by reason of faith, unless those chosen already exhibited faith that God credited as righteousness?

Because they are not chosen based on ( by reason of ) their faith.
They are chosen through ( not because of, but along with ) it.

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

They are also chosen based on His mercy and grace.
Please see Romans 9:14-18.

Faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ), and gifts function far differently than rewards do.
If a person is chosen to salvation based on something that they have, then God is a respecter of persons...
and that person has then gained God's favor through merit.

Merit:
noun
noun: merit
the quality of being particularly good or worthy, especially so as to deserve praise or reward.
"composers of outstanding merit"

verb
verb: merit; 3rd person present: merits; past tense: merited; past participle: merited; gerund or present participle: meriting
deserve or be worthy of (something, especially reward, punishment, or attention).
"the results have been encouraging enough to merit further investigation"

Merit is how the Law works.
Unmerited favor through gifts, are how God works through Jesus Christ.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How can a person be chosen through or by reason of faith, unless those chosen already exhibited faith that God credited as righteousness?

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

What is your problem with this text? God the Father chose His people before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4 etc.), and gave them to the Son to redeem (John 6:38-39 etc.) and to the Holy Spirit to seal (Ephesians 1:13-14 etc.) in time.
Now God may (Deuteronomy 29:29) have some special way to deal with those who die as infants or imbeciles, but for the rest of us, we are saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). So when one of God's elect hears the Gospel, God opens his heart to receive the truth. Otherwise he could not be saved (1 Corinthians 2:14).

That is why the Lord Jesus can say, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......" Not one of the elect will fail to come to Christ. ".......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." Whoever believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved. There is no question of the Father going through the list and pruning it somehow. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' is a Calvinist text.

 

[Van]

Because they are not chosen based on ( by reason of ) their faith.
They are chosen through ( not because of, but along with ) it. SNIP

Here the meaning of "en" used to show instrumentality is nullified by making up a fictional meaning. Here is the actual meaning of "en" when used to show instrumentality: the "means by or with which anything is accomplished."

This is all they have folks, blatant falsehoods to deny God crediting our faith as righteousness is the basis for choosing us individually for salvation.

Consistent with the pattern of nullifying and rewriting every verse to shows Calvinism is false and mistaken doctrine...
No one was chosen individually before they existed as children of wrath, and "not a people" chosen by God.

 

[KenH]

The crux of the matter is the gospel - the total reliance upon the righteousness of Christ having been imputed to the elect and the sins of the elect having been imputed to Christ. Pelagianism, Arminianism, and Calvinism are three systematic means of understanding the whole message of the Bible. None of those three are the gospel. They are simply means to explain the message of the Bible.

The dividing line is whether one believes that salvation is all of God or is there some way in which man, be it ever so minor, plays a part in saving himself. I believe that salvation is all of God - 100%. I give 100% of the glory to God and 0% to myself. I did nothing, I contributed nothing except what God graciously first gave me in Christ. 1 Corinthians 4:7 For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it? (ESV)

If anything, I would give myself an infinite negative percentage when it comes to my salvation.

 

[Van]

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).

What is your problem with this text? God the Father chose His people before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4 etc.), and gave them to the Son to redeem (John 6:38-39 etc.) and to the Holy Spirit to seal (Ephesians 1:13-14 etc.) in time.
Now God may (Deuteronomy 29:29) have some special way to deal with those who die as infants or imbeciles, but for the rest of us, we are saved by God's grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). So when one of God's elect hears the Gospel, God opens his heart to receive the truth. Otherwise he could not be saved (1 Corinthians 2:14).

That is why the Lord Jesus can say, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me......" Not one of the elect will fail to come to Christ. ".......And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." Whoever believes on the Lord Jesus will be saved. There is no question of the Father going through the list and pruning it somehow. 'Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved' is a Calvinist text.

Folks note the issue of being chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth is ignored? Ephesian 1:4 refers to the corporate election of those God's Redeemer would redeem. God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, and therefore corporately chose all those His redeemer would redeem. But before creation did we exist as individuals? Nope. Had we existed as not a chosen people? Nope

When does God "give" individual people to Christ by transferring them spiritually into Christ? During their lifetime, after they had existed as children of wrath, and not as a chosen people. The "come to Me" of John 6:37 refers to God transferring the person into Christ, thus resulting in the person being "in Christ" because Christ promises He will "by no means cast out."

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Here our spiritual baptism into Christ is in view, thus it is God alone who determines who He will save, because salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, Romans 9:16.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Folks note the issue of being chosen through or by reason of faith in the truth is ignored?

By whom? Not by me. No one gets saved without believing in Christ. If you read other people's posts. Van, it would help.

Ephesian 1:4 refers to the corporate election of those God's Redeemer would redeem.

No such thing; at least, not as you mean it.

God chose Christ to be His Redeemer, and therefore corporately chose all those His redeemer would redeem. But before creation did we exist as individuals? Nope. Had we existed as not a chosen people? Nope

Actually, Yep. 'Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you' (Jeremiah 1:5). 'Known unto God from eternity are all His works' (Acts of the Apostles 15:18). C.f. also Psalms 139:16..

When does God "give" individual people to Christ by transferring them spiritually into Christ? During their lifetime, after they had existed as children of wrath, and not as a chosen people.

Nope. John 6:39. 'This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing.....' These people were given to the Son by the Father before He died for them, to wit, before time began.

The "come to Me" of John 6:37 refers to God transferring the person into Christ, thus resulting in the person being "in Christ" because Christ promises He will "by no means cast out."

Nope. I think you'll find that the text means exactly what it says. "The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' No one who comes to Christ in true repentance and faith (Mark 1:15) will be turned away.

Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
“He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Here our spiritual baptism into Christ is in view, thus it is God alone who determines who He will save, because salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved, Romans 9:16.

You are forced to propose this in order to squeeze the text into your crackpot system. There is no reason to suppose that anything but water baptism is meant. The N.T. knows nothing of the unbaptized Christian, whether in water or in the Spirit.. But Paul and Silas tell the Philippian jailor, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." There is no suggestion that this statement might be falsified due to a subsequent review by the Father. Don't be so silly!

But you are right that salvation does not depend on the person who wills to be saved. When someone repents and trusts in Christ it is because God the Father has loved him from eternity and drawn him in time to Christ in love (Jeremiah 31:3).

 

[Van]

It is always refreshing when a Calvinist advocate attempts to find a verse that supports Calvinism. Let us consider the attempt to claim John 6:39 says God had given each and every elect individual to Christ before Christ died, again claiming Ephesians 1:4 refers to an individual election rather than corporate.

Here is the verse (NKJV- Martin's go to version):

John 6:39
“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.​

1) Does this address those already given, or anyone ever given? Answer - anyone ever given.
2) Does this verse say that anyone has been given (spiritually placed into Christ) at the time Jesus spoke? Nope

What this verse actually says is whenever, past, present or future, God has given an individual to Christ, the Father's will is that Christ will loss none of those given.

 

[AustinC]

No I do not
There is no Salvation with out faith first.
Eph 2:1 Also you—being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
Eph 2:2 in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath—as also the others,
Eph 2:4 and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,
Eph 2:5 even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
Eph 2:6 and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,
This above comes from the YLT. Notice that Eph 2:8 there is no gift of faith. God is the gift.
Saved yes but not quickened with out faith first.
MB

This version actually does present faith as the gift from God that is not from ourselves.

Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,

You seem to fight against the bit of God's decree.

 

[37818]

. . . God is the gift. . . .

in Ephesians 2:8, ". . . saved . . . that . . . the gift . . . ."
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: . . ." It is not saying God is the gift, but the gift is being saved of God's grace is that gift. Some Calvinists want to make the faith which precedes the gift to be that gift.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

1) Does this address those already given, or anyone ever given? Answer - anyone ever given.

No it doesn't. 'All those that He has given Me.' The tense is actually Perfect (Dedoken. Check it out), meaning a completed action in the past. Of all those whom the Father has once and for all given to the Lord Jesus before ever time was, He will lose not one. There will be no subsequent review by God the Father to thin down the list to be saved. God forbid!

And now look at the very next verse, John 6:40. Those same people who were given to Christ before the foundation of the world will see Him by the eye of faith and trust in Him and the Father wills that every single one shall have eternal life and Christ will raise every single one up at the last day.