Genuine God-Given Faith

[Dave G]

Stop changing the subject to my behavioir.

Then stop bashing people personally for disagreeing with you over what the Scriptures say,
and stop insulting people who insult you...and then complaining that they insult you, sir.

That is not Christian behavior and it is not consistent with how Christians are to treat even their enemies.
It seems that no matter how much a person confronts you about these things, you are completely unable to see it in yourself when you do it to others.
In addition, you are not the only one who does that on this forum...
there are many who do it ( apparently without thinking about it ), and some of them are posting right in this thread.

Van, there's no reason that people cannot have a civil discussion about the Bible, agree to disagree and perhaps get into details about it, and do so without things ending up in mocking each other, belittling each other and all sorts of shameful behavior that the Lord tells us not to engage in.

Perhaps if the moderators were to actually read these threads and take our behavior towards each other a little more seriously,
there wouldn't be so much in the way of personal insults flying around.


But I have little hope that things will improve, seeing as they haven't done so in the over 3 years that I've been posting on here.

 

[agedman]

Since you're such an expert on what scripture says prove what you believe about total depravity.
MB

Already done numerous times.

You didn’t agree then, and I see no fruit of your changing your mind or actions.

 

[Van]

SNIP

All the Calvinists have are Triple Vee posts. Vicious, Vindictive, Vilification.
They attack with falsehoods and misrepresentations, changing the subject from their false doctrine to the behavior of their opponents. Why this systemic behavior is allowed is beyond me.

Does scripture say "a person" is chosen and located within Christ before the foundation of the world. Nope.

1) Who or what is chosen per Ephesians 1:4? "Us" (those saved at the time of Paul's letter.) Is the Greek word translated "us" singular or plural? Plural! Thus God chose a group. Are corporate elections of groups? Yes!

2) John 6:37-47 addresses the individuals that God transfers into Christ. Thus the passage supports the biblical view.

3) Can anyone believe in Jesus if God does not allow it? Nope. For example, Romans 11 where God hardened the hearts of non-believing Jews, preventing them from believing. However, since He had to harden their hearts, they had prior spiritual ability, once again proving "total spiritual inability" is a bogus as a three dollar bill.

 

[agedman]

37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
​

Directly from Peter.

Those in whom God calls will respond.

 

[Dave G]

All the Calvinists have are Triple Vee posts. Vicious, Vindictive, Vilification.
They attack with falsehoods and misrepresentations, changing the subject from their false doctrine to the behavior of their opponents. Why this systemic behavior is allowed is beyond me.

I understand why you see it that way and I would like you to answer one thing, if you're willing:

Have I ever spoken ill of you?
Have I ever disparaged you personally?

 

[Van]

I understand why you see it that way and I would like you to answer one thing, if you're willing:

Have I ever spoken ill of you?
Have I ever disparaged you personally?

Yet another off topic effort at diversion...

Does scripture say "a person" is chosen and located within Christ before the foundation of the world. Nope.

1) Who or what is chosen per Ephesians 1:4? "Us" (those saved at the time of Paul's letter.) Is the Greek word translated "us" singular or plural? Plural! Thus God chose a group. Are corporate elections of groups? Yes!

2) John 6:37-47 addresses the individuals that God transfers into Christ. Thus the passage supports the biblical view.

3) Can anyone believe in Jesus if God does not allow it? Nope. For example, Romans 11 where God hardened the hearts of non-believing Jews, preventing them from believing. However, since He had to harden their hearts, they had prior spiritual ability, once again proving "total spiritual inability" is a bogus as a three dollar bill.

 

[Dave G]

Yet another off topic effort at diversion...

No effort at diversion, Van.
It's relevant to what's happening in this thread.

I don't agree with the treatment coming from either side.
But again, have I ever spoken ill of you or disparaged you?
If not, then why do you characterize my posts as "nonsense" and use other derogatory terms?

What's more, when are you going to take the Lord's commands regarding personal behavior more seriously, my friend?
It does no good for either side of this discussion to continue to spiral down into name-calling.
It's not right that you should have to put up with disparagement any more than I should, or anyone else should.

Why not simply state your position, agree to disagree and leave it at that?

 

[Van]

If you listen to even the first minute or so of the OP video, you will see the verse "whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" listed as evidence of (past tense) salvation. I kid you not.

We are chosen for salvation through or by reason of "faith in the truth." No one is "regenerated" before they are individually chosen. No one is chosen before they existed as non-chosen people. No one receives mercy before they were without mercy. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Does "made alive together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:5) not proclaim we are made alive after God puts us into Christ, such that we are "together with Christ?" Does whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved not proclaim we call on the name of the Lord before we are saved?

 

[Dave G]

If you listen to even the first minute or so of the OP video, you will see the verse "whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" listed as evidence of (past tense) salvation. I kid you not.

We are chosen for salvation through or by reason of "faith in the truth." No one is "regenerated" before they are individually chosen. No one is chosen before they existed as non-chosen people. No one receives mercy before they were without mercy. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Does "made alive together with Christ" not proclaim we are made alive after God puts us into Christ, such that we are "together with Christ?" Does whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved not proclaim we call on the name of the Lord before we are saved?

I understand your position, but find that I must disagree with it.
I see much more than that when I read the Bible for myself, and to me, it's not that "cut-and-dried".


That said, I bid you a good afternoon, sir, and the Lord's blessings upon you.

 

[agedman]

…

We are chosen for salvation through or by reason of "faith in the truth." No one is "regenerated" before they are individually chosen. No one is chosen before they existed as non-chosen people. No one receives mercy before they were without mercy. 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 1 Peter 2:9-10. Does "made alive together with Christ" (Ephesians 2:5) not proclaim we are made alive after God puts us into Christ, such that we are "together with Christ?" Does whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved not proclaim we call on the name of the Lord before we are saved?

Did I not post:

Ultimately, his view denies God has all knowledge, knowing even the thoughts and intents of the heart prior to human even thinking. (Psalm 139)

His view determines that God is conformed to human timing, and not the God of time and Space who places boundaries and limits to His purpose.

His view is that humankind can actually thwart the purposes of God, making humans more powerful than God. He inappropriately uses Matthew repeatedly in this false presentation.

His view is that God is not all wise, for he presents that God is just wise enough to establish that some nebulous group will be predestined and elected, but not knowledgeable about the specific members of that grouping.

His view presents God as not quite all seeing and understanding, for the humankind must make expressions and God must wait to see if the expressions are made with enough veracity as to then warrant salvation.

He has exalted human kind to actually have the ability to conjure up human faith pure enough to be acceptable to God.​

The quote is from Van on this thread, #108, and he just documented that I correctly presented his views.

 

[Van]

This is all they have folks, generalized false statements calculated to disparage the messengers of truth. See post 110 for the latest example...
1) Does the biblical view diminish the divine attributes of God? Nope
2) Does the election of Ephesians 1:4 being corporate indicate God cannot elect individuals according to His purpose? Nope
3) Is God "all knowing?" Yes
4) Does Psalm 139 say God knows our thoughts before we have them? Nope It says God knows our words before we formulate them. However His knowledge of us comes from searching us, thus our thoughts or intents are found by a search of us. Thus after we exist.
5) Is God constrained by time? Nope! He declares the end from the beginning.
6) Can man thwart the plan or purpose of God? Nope
7) Could God have chosen the individuals for salvation before they existed? Yes. Did He? Nope
8) Did God have to choose those whose faith He credits as righteous? Nope. Did He? Yes
9) Is our "filthy rag" faith pure? Nope Does God credit the "dirty rag" faith of some individuals, turning a sows ear into a silk purse? Yes
10) Every biblical doctrine is found in scripture, not the rewrites of people.

Thus his entire post presents his usual list of false charges, to disparage me personally. Study God's word, folks:

1) Matthew 13 says people can receive the gospel, teaching total spiritual inability is false doctrine.
2) Matthew 23:13 says some people were entering the kingdom, thus having spiritual ability, yet were prevented from entering, thus their ability did not come from "irresistible grace."
3) Romans 4:23-24 says God credits the faith of some people for their benefit, as those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead.
4) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth." Thus our "benefit" of having our faith credited is to be chosen for salvation and placed spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

Just read your bible, folks..

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes folks, read your Bible. No Calvinist would tell you anything to the contrary.

 

[agedman]

...

Thus his entire post presents his usual list of false charges, to disparage me personally. Study God's word, folks:

1) Matthew 13 says people can receive the gospel, teaching total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Wrong. You have been shown in what manner you have taken inappropriate use of this verse to prove what you hold, and it lacks veracity.

2) Matthew 23:13 says some people were entering the kingdom, thus having spiritual ability, yet were prevented from entering, thus their ability did not come from "irresistible grace."

Again, you are wrong. You assume humankind is mightier than God. How far your audacity extends!

3) Romans 4:23-24 says God credits the faith of some people for their benefit, as those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

No. As others have pointed out, you are taking "credit" as if it is some agreement between a lender and borrower. It is not to be taken that way.

Human faith is sin filled and does not nor can it ever activate God's consideration when it comes to salvation. Rather, it is the faith implanted by the Scriptures into person enabled to hear and comprehend the Scriptures by the work of the Holy Spirit. Just as Romans teaches, "Faith COMES by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."

This is a major fault of your scheme(s) and one in which you violate the principle of Scriptures in grasping one verse and trying to make a doctrinal statement based on that single verse.

4) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth." Thus our "benefit" of having our faith credited is to be chosen for salvation and placed spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

No. It is not our faith that benefits us, but the faith implanted in us by the Holy Spirit. He gives each that "measure of faith" designated to the purpose for which He desires for us to accomplish.

Human hope so (faith) is worthless and frail at best. It is a disappointment willing to appear when hope is lost.

This is why in expressing the human unfaithfulness, the writer states, "If we believe not, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

If salvation were based upon human faith, then folks when they stop believing would loose their salvation. However, because salvation is warranted by the Holy Spirit based upon the faith implanted into the believer, then "He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself."

You have been shown how your scheme fails in also making it some human decision that God has to look to see if it is worthy of Him crediting that person for salvation.

But no doubt, you will not accept my words in this post as factual and Scripturally based.

 

[Dave G]

Van, for comparison and to show the reader that there is more than one way to look at what you've presented,
I'd like to address your post # 111 ( and your prior post of # 73 ) point by point:

1) Does the biblical view diminish the divine attributes of God? Nope

Respectfully and regrettably, I do not see that your view is the Biblical view.
Rather, to me it is in error and leaves out quite a bit of what the Scriptures tell us about how and why the Lord saves any of us.

2) Does the election of Ephesians 1:4 being corporate indicate God cannot elect individuals according to His purpose? Nope

From my own understanding of the Bible, the election of Ephesians 1:4-5 is individual, as well as corporate.
I've also explained why in post # 85.
Does this indicate to me that God cannot elect individuals according to His purpose?
No, and the way I see it, He does that very thing and it is supported in many passages.

3) Is God "all knowing?" Yes

I agree.

4) Does Psalm 139 say God knows our thoughts before we have them? Nope It says God knows our words before we formulate them. However His knowledge of us comes from searching us, thus our thoughts or intents are found by a search of us. Thus after we exist.

Psalms 139 was inspired of God and written for the benefit of the believer. The way I read it, it is very detailed and intimate from David's point of view.
It not only details God knowing everything about a person, but He does indeed know their thoughts and actions before they are born.
It is part of His "omnicience" to know all.

It also tells me that David's relationship with the Lord was an intimate one from before he was born, with the Lord knowing him when he was in his mother's womb.
See Psalms 71, Psalms 22, Galatians 1:15-16, Jeremiah 1:5 for comparison.

 

[Dave G]

5) Is God constrained by time? Nope! He declares the end from the beginning.

Amen.

6) Can man thwart the plan or purpose of God? Nope

Amen.
Additionally, see Romans 8:28-30 and Romans 9... based on my studies, I hold that man cannot thwart God's purposes according to election.

7) Could God have chosen the individuals for salvation before they existed? Yes. Did He? Nope

I see that He did, and I've listed the passages in many threads and on many occasions.
If you like, we can go over them again in great detail, and we can even create a separate thread for each passage to look at the words of, carefully.

The best example that I know of is Ephesians 1:4-5.

8) Did God have to choose those whose faith He credits as righteous? Nope. Did He? Yes

I see that it is "yes" to both.
Did He have to? Yes, because that was His purpose all along.

But to me He chose the individual irrespective of their faith, which came later.
See Ephesians 1. His choice came first, and then the Ephesians believed on His Son and were sealed by the Holy Spirit.

9) Is our "filthy rag" faith pure? Nope Does God credit the "dirty rag" faith of some individuals, turning a sows ear into a silk purse? Yes

I don't see the Bible anywhere describing a person's faith as being "filthy rags",
nor do I see anywhere that God takes one's "dirty rags" faith and turns it into something pure.
However, I do see where God describes man's righteousnesses as filthy rags ( Isaiah 64:6 ).

As before, I see the Scripture teaching that faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) authored and finished by Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ) and that not all men have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ) because they were not given it to begin with.
Before it was given to the believer ( Galatians 3:23 ), they had no faith for God to credit as righteousness. What's more, righteousness itself is a gift from God ( Romans 5:17 ).

Therefore, nothing we have or do can possibly merit God's gift of eternal life....or that would make it a reward, not a gift.

10) Every biblical doctrine is found in scripture, not the rewrites of people.

Amen yet again, and I quite agree.
Every biblical doctrine is found in the entirety of the Scriptures, and short of leaving out the details, can be determined without a person's "re-writing" the Bible.

 

[Dave G]

1) Matthew 13 says people can receive the gospel, teaching total spiritual inability is false doctrine.

Matthew 13 tells me that there are 4 types of people who believe, or receive the "seed" which is sown in the heart of a person... the immutable word of God.
The 4th one is the only one that brings forth true spiritual fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

It also says that there are wheat and there are tares...combined with the previous parable of the sower, I see that 3 are "tares" ( because they fall away ), and the 4th is the "wheat".

2) Matthew 23:13 says some people were entering the kingdom, thus having spiritual ability, yet were prevented from entering, thus their ability did not come from "irresistible grace."

Matthew 23:13 tells me that the spiritually dead and vainly religious were hindering those that were entering in.
Based on other passages such as Romans 8:29-30 and many others, I understand that those that were entering in were and are God's elect...
While those that were and are doing the hindering are false teachers.

Thus, "spiritual inability", or lack of desire on man's part as Romans 1, Romans 2 and Romans 3 describes ( as well as Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and Psalms 53 ), is supported...
As well as reflected in the actions of the Pharisees throughout the parallel accounts of what are known as the four Gospels.

3) Romans 4:23-24 says God credits the faith of some people for their benefit, as those who believe God raised Jesus from the dead.

I agree.
I also see that Ephesians 2:8 describing that faith is the gift of God, and Hebrews 12:2 telling me that true faith is authored and finished by Jesus Christ, while Hebrews 11:1 tells me that it is the evidence of the things that are not seen, i.e. the working of God in a person.
In addition, Galatians 2:16-20 tells me that it is the faith of Christ that both we and Paul live by.

Therefore, God credits a believer's faith as righteousness... but without that gift of righteous faith, there would be no crediting of something that was never there to begin with.
At the Judgment, God gets all the glory and man has nothing to stand on except God's mercy.

4) 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth." Thus our "benefit" of having our faith credited is to be chosen for salvation and placed spiritually in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that believers are chosen to salvation through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.
Ephesians 2:8 tells us that by grace are we saved through faith.

Thus ( and according to my understanding of where a believer's faith comes from ), our benefit of having our faith credited to us, per Hebrews 12:2 and Ephesians 2:8, is directed back at the Lord and His gift of faith, which we are chosen to salvation through, and not "by means of".

If it were "by means of" ( instead of "through", which places belief of the truth and faith as things that are involved and not a means ) that would require the Lord to reward us with salvation, making His gifts conditioned on merit;
This is not possible, since by definition, a gift cannot be merited in any way, shape or form... or that would re-define the word to be "reward", and not "gift".

 

[Dave G]

@Van :
Thank you for the privilege to post my points in answer to yours, and I wish you well, sir.

Unfortunately I cannot and will not agree with you that ( apparently ) our faith is a product of a dead sinner's rebellious and God-hating will that precedes the gifts of salvation, eternal life ( which is to know God and His Son, John 17:3 ) and Christ's righteousness;
Rather, I see that that salvation is entirely of the Lord and everything that we have as believers in Jesus Christ, including our faith, is a product of God making us new creatures in Him.

As I understand the Scriptures laying out,
We as believers had nothing to contribute to God's holy work of salvation, and we will have no occasion to boast in anything other than the Lord's unmerited favor when all is said and done.


May God bless you in many ways and in many things.

@KenH :
Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts on what I see the Bible teaching on this subject.

May the Lord bless you and all who read this with His grace, His mercy and His kindness throughout not only this life, but in the life to come.

 

[KenH]

@KenH :
Thank you for allowing me to post my thoughts on what I see the Bible teaching on this subject.

Glad to do so. This thread is probably fast approaching the end of its life expectancy.